I have to say that I find all of this fascinating, or at least the little bits that I skim read when I have the time, which isn't often.
Many of you talk about husbands helping around the house, etc, those who are spoiled etc. etc.
When I was married, I did actually appreciate all the help that my ex gave me with cleaning and cooking. For example, he would do all the Shabbos cooking and he often took the kids out in the holidays so I could work undisturbed.
Nowadays, it's usually just me around here, though my oldest dd has been working hard all summer trying to help me at home with lots of cleaning and sorting out that I don't normally get done between all the other stuff I have to take care of. And all at her own initiative, might I add!!!!
All I can say is that needing help at home, how much husbands (if you have them) should help etc is all an attitude of mind. And I have discovered that I seem to have (at the moment, bli ayin hara|) a lot more stamina than I ever thought I had.
I think a lot of it is in the mind.
(Now I know I have probably gone off topic and am talking about something or other that was said 50 posts ago, but I am totally lost in this thread and am never quite sure what you're all talking about at any given time. It all seems to be one long cacophony ....)
Every day I'm at such a loss to begin to contribute to the "husbands learning" aspect of this thread. Let's just say that I think it contributes to kids to hear from a father that, for example, yesterday's Daf Chulin Lamed Dalet was difficult.
The general family structure should include Abba learning Torah. Like he gets dressed and eats and takes a shower and davens. These are all norms. Like not eating or not showering are due to unusual circumstances, and rectified as soon as possible.
Isramom, I totally agree! Like how could anyone not agree with that? (it's posts like your's, and shosh too that help me stay on imamother even against my better judgment).
Last edited by TzenaRena on Sun, Jul 31 2011, 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total
Every day I'm at such a loss to begin to contribute to the "husbands learning" aspect of this thread. Let's just say that I think it contributes to kids to hear from a father that, for example, yesterday's Daf Chulin Lamed Dalet was difficult.
The general family structure should include Abba learning Torah. Like he gets dressed and eats and takes a shower and davens. These are all norms. Like not eating or not showering are due to unusual circumstances, and rectified as soon as possible.
But if we take that as a starting point, the question becomes whether it is normative for men to participate in other activities, including normal household activities, as well. And in my world, it is. Men cook and clean and take care of goods and go to the supermarket. They also read literature, watch TV, and coach their kids' basketball teams.
FS seems to be arguing that in her world, a man cannot and should not do these things, except in dire emergencies, because they take away from Torah learning. To me, that's pretty much a contradiction of Modern Orthodoxy, but each family has to make its own decisions, I guess.
Isramom doesn't your husband head a community kollel? So he spends his day immersed in torah and therefore can spend evenings at home with his family and talk about what he learns during the day. I've said specifically that I'm not talking about that but rather of men who aren't working in torah based professions and have to do their torah learning at night.
And Barbara, I'm not saying that men can't do all these things if necessary and that they shouldn't know how to. But rather that if there is a list that goes:
1) shop
2) cook
3) clean
4) learn torah
In my opinion, and from the way I was taught, as woman should first and foremost take on doing 1, 2, and 3 while encouraging her husband to do 4. If she is in a special situation where she needs help with 1, 2, and 3 that's different. And no one said that at the end of the meal instead of just getting up the husband who has two good hands can't help clean off the table. But if the choice is man do the dishes while woman sits and rests, I was taught that if you can, push yourself and give up your rest so that your equally tired husband can spend his energy learning torah.
As for fathers coaching basketball, that really doesn't exist in my world, hate to say it. You play at school during recess but as for more than that? Again, not in my world.
Why do you think it's a contradiction to modern orthodoxy? Does modern orthodoxy put equality in household chores before limud torah?
My DD goes to Gan israel. I don't think even the teen girls get so much learning there... can't comment on the BM boys. The small boys don't get more learning than the small girls. When IYh we have a son we'll have to make him work, as we do with DD.
Quote:
I don't know any rabbonim who don't say that a man has chiyuv of limud torah daily, there are differences of opinions how much time he has to devote to it as a minumum.
So that's not "all the time", so why are you pushing it for those who don't need to do it?
And again, it's not about equality, it's about being a mentsch. It's very nice to learn about middos or mitsvos and then not even help at home. derech eretz kadma la torah. Or simply, if they are selfish, not having wifey all burned out and refusing any type of "relations" or possibly depressed, and kids associating it with laziness and escaping their responsibility as a father.
Isramom doesn't your husband head a community kollel? So he spends his day immersed in torah and therefore can spend evenings at home with his family and talk about what he learns during the day. I've said specifically that I'm not talking about that but rather of men who aren't working in torah based professions and have to do their torah learning at night.
And Barbara, I'm not saying that men can't do all these things if necessary and that they shouldn't know how to. But rather that if there is a list that goes:
1) shop
2) cook
3) clean
4) learn torah
In my opinion, and from the way I was taught, as woman should first and foremost take on doing 1, 2, and 3 while encouraging her husband to do 4. If she is in a special situation where she needs help with 1, 2, and 3 that's different. And no one said that at the end of the meal instead of just getting up the husband who has two good hands can't help clean off the table. But if the choice is man do the dishes while woman sits and rests, I was taught that if you can, push yourself and give up your rest so that your equally tired husband can spend his energy learning torah.
As for fathers coaching basketball, that really doesn't exist in my world, hate to say it. You play at school during recess but as for more than that? Again, not in my world.
Why do you think it's a contradiction to modern orthodoxy? Does modern orthodoxy put equality in household chores before limud torah?
MO says that the world is part of Torah, and participating in the world is part of Torah.
You act as it the world is black and white, either or. Either the man learns, or he spends his evenings scrubbing floors while his wife sits back eating bon bons. That's absurd. In reality, what happens is that if there are 4 evening hours, the man might learn with a chevrusa for an hour or 2, 3 times a week, learn on his own for an hour or so the other days, help kids with homework, help with the dishes, and relax in front of the TV some of the time. Balance, balance, balance.
As to kids not playing sports except at recess .... shocking to me. There's an entire website devoted to yeshiva league basketball
And while my son isn't at that level (yet), he regularly plays with kids on the MO spectrum from mom wears jeans and dad wear kippah at meals and davening only, to mom wears sheitl and 3/4 sleeves, and dad wears black hat to shul. (He's played baseball and hockey with dad wears a black hat all the time as well, come to think of it.)
I think the sports thing is very American. Here too, even most non Jewish kids only play sports at gym class and recess... I personally wouldn't have an interest at all in my son doing it.
Friedasima, for the record, in my circles the norm is that the husband works, comes home for dinner, and goes out for mincha/maariv/shiur/shmooz with buddies. They only miss their shiur if there are extenuating circumstances such as needing to "babysit" (yes, it's babysitting if he is giving up his shiur!) for really important reasons (such as wife going to mik, important simcha and no babysitter avail). They do NOT put aside their nightly shiur to stam help out at home. That having beem said, my dh comes home from work at 6:30 and helps me with dinner, bath and bedtime and even cleanup if neccesary between work and shul. He even manages to take a little nap when it's summer and mincha is later. So it's possible to still help and be kovea ittim. As far as I know in my velt, the men dint sacrifice their learning under regular circimstances to do chores; but they also dont put constant learning as a top priority over their wives and kids well being (unless someone is mamish a major masmid and their wife manages fine). So you dont have to continue having baffled arguments about limud hatorah, bc in many, many circles ther is a happy medium.
I'm going to be honest: if my husband were to go out and learn for hours per day AFTER a full day of work (which sometimes extends to 12 or 1 or 2 am, as necessary), then I'd not only need to have my kids in camp every evening but I'd also probably need household help in the form of a nanny, house cleaner etc every evening. I can't function all day plus all night. I need R E S T and S L E E P.
Barbara, every branch of Orthodox Judaism believes that a person must practice a Torah lifestyle in his daily routine. You seem to imply that for MO, that is equivalent to actually learning Torah, thus fulfilling that particular mitzva (limud Torah). If that is true, it is a huge, fundamental difference from mainstream Orthodoxy, in which learning Torah is a requirement for men outside of incorporating Torah into everyday life.
The purpose of learning is to put it in practice. That does mean helping wife with housework, playing and taking care of the children and helping other people in life.
Barbara, every branch of Orthodox Judaism believes that a person must practice a Torah lifestyle in his daily routine. You seem to imply that for MO, that is equivalent to actually learning Torah, thus fulfilling that particular mitzva (limud Torah). If that is true, it is a huge, fundamental difference from mainstream Orthodoxy, in which learning Torah is a requirement for men outside of incorporating Torah into everyday life.
That's not what she said, she said for MO it takes place alongside limud Torah. Eg. 2 hours of Torah study and 2 hours home with family, rather than seeing the hours home with family as wasted time that could have been spent learning.
Well, what is a community kollel for? Ours encourages men to come in and learn during the day or evening!
kollel video
(This video's particular focus is on the kids.)
Last edited by Isramom8 on Sun, Jul 31 2011, 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
First all of MB what you write warms my heart. Because until now neither you nor other chassidish women have written that their working husbands are kovei itim daily. If they are, that's wonderful! And that's just what I was talking about. But you can imagine that if it is never mentioned until now I can't be a mind reader especially when a chassidish poster writes that limud torah is a luxury!
And it was also a response to posters who wrote that during the week they never saw their fathers learn, but they only had a chavrusa for two hours once a week on Sunday.
If a man is helping with the children and has four hours and then goes out for two hours to learn, that's wonderful! That's definitely kovea itim. But in practice that's not what often happens if a shiur is let's say, at 8 PM till ten. That means that a husband who gets home from work at seven has dinner with the family and spends some time with the kids and then he goes off to his shiur. During those two hours his wife is the one who is with the kids, showers them and puts them to bed (here in EY kids usually go to sleep later than in America, even small kids) and then does household chores while he is in shul/shiur. When he comes home, at 10 PM, the kids are usually asleep, at least the younger ones. That's the time that you can be a couple, together. If you want to use that time cleaning together, and that works for you, that's fine too. Note that I mentioned that was the time that I would hang laundry from that day and if I was muttar my husband would help me and hand things to me. You may ask, why didn't I sit and rest while HE hangs the laundry alone? Simply because he is by that time of night at least an hour to an hour and a half more tired than I am as he gets up at 5 or even before for vasikin, while I, boruch Hashem, can stay in bed until six or six thirty and today with no kids in the house, even later until seven or if I dont' have meetings, even (gasp!) seven thirty if I don't have to show up at work until 8:30. I'm long past the stage of having to punch the time clock at my rank.
So in our particular case, and definitely being a night person, I would rather hang laundry and let him wind down. But that's up to each particular couple.
Barbara, sports are very american. Here we don't have sundays, we don't have leagues. Israeli frum DL kids toss a ball around during recess and that's about it. After that age I don't know any frum Israeli DL or MO men who play ball. They get enough exercise in the army without that! It's a different culture like Ruchel wrote about France.
Last edited by freidasima on Sun, Jul 31 2011, 12:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
That's without mentioning rabbanim who say a family is a good reason to daven at home if you do it seriously (and I can tell you DH barely hears us when he davens!) and also of course to learn at home, especially if you are not a beginner (and BH my dh has quite a good level, from his rabbanim and people he learns with, as it's not something I could judge by myself).
There is also the shitta that follows the Talmud quote "one should learn where his heart desires" (not our shita personally, just mentioning this in passing).
If all kollelim thought all men had to just learn there wouldn't be many kolelim with no or fewer shiurim on Friday and Sunday - and they say openly why davka these days.
The purpose of learning is to put it in practice. That does mean helping wife with housework, playing and taking care of the children and helping other people in life.
Not completely accurate. Torah learning itself has intrinsic value. Remember "Talmud Torah Keneged Kulam"? That comes after a long list of Chessed activities and there must be a reason for it.
So, while learning Torah gives us the tools to perform mitzvos better there is intrinsic value to just sitting and learning a blatt gemora just for the sake of learning and not for the sake of putting anything into practice, necessarily. BTW this is the type of learning that women are completely exempt from. Women are only obligated to learn the stuff that they need to keep the mitzvos properly.
True, for the sake of love of Hashem and Torah. However, if you aren't putting what you learn INTO practice then you aren't doing learning right. Yes, learn l'sham HaTorah, but learning without working is meritless.
What does one thing have to do with the other? For generations men didn't do dishes or diaper babies or make sponga. That means that they didn't put the torah they learned into practice?
No one said that a man shouldn't be involved with his children. No one said that if his wife is collapsing he shouldn't try and help her or earn money to pay for someone to take the physical burden off of her.
But what I see here on this thread in general is that with all the talk of learning for little kids people seem to forget that to create a torah household one has to have personal examples. It's easy to say that a woman is potur from davening which is correct. But what an incredible personal example it gives her kids when they see her take time out of a really full schedule to sit and daven for even five minutes every morning. The house can fall apart, the phone can ring, but Mommy davens. My kids saw that. From the time they were in their playpen they saw me daven and I remember them in turn copying me as soon as they could stand up, holding up their hands like a siddur, putting their feet together to daven shmoneh esreh with me at age 18 months or so.
Same with seeing daddy go out to learn, or sit and learn at home (yes Ruchel, definitely fine) or sit with a chavrusa. It teaches them priorities. That torah is bigger than them. That if there is an emergency Daddy will be there with them but otherwise, the ladder of priorities has learning torah way up there on top.
If a family decides together to share chores, that doesn't give a man a ptor from limud torah daily. Therefore it is chessed for a wife to take on more than her husband to free some or most of his time from the domestic so that he can learn. Her sachar for doing that is just like his is for learning torah.
