I guess it depends on individual family dynamic. My 18 year old dd loves to read to ME and discuss the content. Maybe we kind of have an extended Seder Night going all year long?
FS, when I read to my 6.5 yo, very often an older brother, say 12 or so, will also sit down to listen. Older ones too, but don't let anyone know. Even though they are all voracious readers and read beautifully on their own. There is something warm and cozy about having your mother or father reading out loud. In fact, I am sometimes envious of parents who make it their business to keep reading to older children, chapter books, when the kids are in bed. It's just something wonderful to do. I find it curious that this is foreign to you. Actually, the most curious thing off all that you wrote about!
I have a sapar, a young thang with a couple of kids. He could have been a chach-chach but since he was talented with hair, he did something positive with himself and has a thriving business. We were discussing kitta alef, when his son was in that grade. I asked him if he "still" read to his kid - and got a blank stare. Now THAT I expect. Also, my co-worker: I gave her a book to read to her son in kitta bet. It's around 6 months later and she's still not read it. Okay, it's cultural. But for someone like yourself to even mention not reading to her kids - do you not read to your grandson? It's such a good thing to do with a child!
Reading to my daughters leads into studying together for the girls' bas mitzvas, and then we base our divrei Torah on what we learned. We also read The Wonder of Becoming You together aloud. I would like to believe that it also leads into natural mother-daughter kallah classes; however I must say that there were actually mixed feelings on both sides about my experience with doing it this way. In a way, not ideal, and in a way, ideal.
Reading to my sons and discussing what we read leads into their sharing with me shtikelach Torah they learned and found interesting.
No I never read to my grandson and I will never read to him nor to any of my other grandchildren. My children don't read to their children either and when I asked one of my kids who is home now about would they feel that it's all warm and cozy if I would have read to them, she looked at me like I was on mars and asked me "ma, are you on meds or something??" When I asked her if she thought it was important for a mother to read to her children her answer was "why in the world would someone want that? It was the biggest push for us to learn to read ourselves! We were all the first readers in our class and it was so much fun because we knew that if we wanted to read you would be the first to teach us but reading to kids makes them lazy!"
That's from a 25 year old. My 30 year old feels the same way.
In our family we develop our kids minds by talking to them and teaching them. I teach my grandson nonstop. I had to sit with him in a park the other day waiting for his mother to come out of a doctor's appointment and I say "had" because it was darn hot and no fun. But I spent the time teaching him how you say "tree and flower" in ten languages. He remembered five the next day. He is two years and seven months old. We also "discussed" why one doesn't pick flowers in a park, what it means to be allergic to dogs (which was why I was in the park and not upstairs in his house with THE DOG) and also learned two songs in English. We go over counting in English and Hebrew all the time, and also colors and words beginning with various sounds as a prelude to learning letters. We lie on our backs on the grass and look up at clouds and make up stories about each cloud. I tell him parashat hashavua stories like I used to tell his mother, and he knows already that David in his class is the name of a king as is Shlomo. Etc. etc. etc.
We get all "warm and cozy" by sitting together and talking, not reading out loud.
In my family that would be an insult to the person being read to, the minute they were capable of reading on their own. Just like asking a six year old if they wanted their tush wiped (yes I know that there are mothers who did it but in my family every kid was wiping their own tushes quite well at three) when they finished in the bathroom. An insult.
Depends on the family as you see.
To each family their own. And to all those trying to push "only reading together makes one warm and cozy" down my throat on this thread I can only answer "try talking and discussing using your head and imagination and telling your kids stories NOT using other people's words and looking around the room or the park for something to spur your imagination. It's a lot harder, a lot more challenging, and a lot more worthwhile.
How can people just read other people's words all the time??? Doesn't it stifle the imagination for children to always have to use other peoples words and ideas as a springboard instead of encouraging them that they can do it totally on their own using normal everyday things around them as a springboard for their thoughts until they can read on their own?
I draw a blank at telling stories unless I have a springboard. MY DH tells weird invented stories to the kids about Peter and the Chaizarim (aliens). Peter, pronunced like "peter rechem". I'm sure it has its place but I'll stick with Targum series and classic American kids' literature...
How do people have the time to give such in-depth advice & criticisms, do such incredible Gemilas Chassadim, be super-moms & super-wives, exercise & be skinny, cook gourmet, nutritious meals from scratch, hold down demanding, professional jobs/careers & still find the time to write frequent, epic-length posts?
Must be because they don't read to their kids, I suppose. One thing less to do.
Isramom, I've got to say that I'm a bit shocked here.
You read that book out loud with your daughters? What ever happened to tznius? Gevalt.
There are words there which I know charedi mothers don't ever even say out LOUD! Certainly not to their children, maybe to their husband with a closed bedroom door.
Wow. You really floored me. If I had tried to do that with my daughters I think they would have thrown up. There is "too much togetherness" sometimes in intimate matters. I gave them the books and certainly not that one, and told them to read it and if they have any questions to ask me. End of story. I showed them the pads and where to find them. Told them basically what to expect. But as for insert part A into part B and that boys have a part A and girls have a part B, well they diapered their little brother so they say that boys have a part A but more than that? And as for the rest?
If my mother would have said the words "fallopian tube" to me I would have cringed so far that I think I would have run away from home. You don't want to hear certain things from your mother. Just like my kids until today KNOW for certain that my husband and I were intimate six times. Once the night we got married and as my oldest daughter was NOT born nine months to the day of our wedding then five more times. No more than that.
For sure.
There are things that kids do NOT want to hear from their mother.
Nobody said anything about reading being the only way to help kids be curious/enjoy reading/whatever.
Nobody said anything about splitting housework 50-50. Not that I'm against that per se, but it's ridiculous to argue against that model specifically when nobody proposed it.
Nobody said anything about making men do housework "just to be fair," or because we're all feminists here, or anything of the sort.
Nobody said they never let their dh learn Torah.
The only thing being said is - for some people, parenting takes enough of their time that they are unable to both work full-time, parent as much as necessary, and do all the housework. And they need their husbands' help. Not just to be "fair" or in order to make sure that it's 50-50, but just to make sure the basic, important things get done.
Sometimes parenting takes longer because children need extra help with school, sometimes they don't play well together naturally and need their mother to be more hands-on than she can be while simultaneously cleaning, sometimes there are several young children in one family and simply caring for their physical needs takes time, sometimes older children need a lot of one-on-one time. If the kids in YOUR family don't, great, fine, enjoy. Just don't knock other families, like, "oh, what's wrong with your perspective that you let your dh mop the floors instead of learning just so you can read to the children." Crazy crazy thought ahead - maybe their children have needs that you don't, maybe they have a different but equally valid and equally Torah-authority-approved approach to parenting.
Reading was just one example of something that in many families is considered an emotional/education need. No, not for 30 minutes per child, more like 15-40 minutes for all the children (depending on whether they can all enjoy the same books).
And when my 18 year old dd says that her friend is pregnant but didn't realize this could happen so soon after getting married, I reaffirm in my mind the benefits of taking responsibility to teach my own daughters' kallah classes.
Last edited by Isramom8 on Sat, Jul 30 2011, 5:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
Ah bubby, don't you know I type 120 wpm touch typing?
For me to write a long post, I can type faster than I can talk! So when it takes you 60 lines to read, it took me no longer than three minutes to write.
I wish I were skinny, Halevai. Still a way to go.
As for cooking gourmet, you sure don't mean me! I'm the one who makes chicken and rice and soup and serves it all week long!
Also note - I have been on imamother since my youngest was what? eighteen? And my oldest was already long married? As I wrote, there was no imamother when I was raising my kids and if I got on a computer it was for work and work only. I did not go to kaffee klatches, did not watch TV, didn't go out, didn't go to the movies and THAT is how I did what I did.
You must be in England to be writing at this hour. How is the weather in England? Hot as it is here?!
"Using other people's words" is a way to gain familiarity with language. Whether kids learn to read from being read to, or in school, only those who read lots of other people's words end up able to read well, and to communicate decently well in writing.
Imagination is a separate issue IMHO. But I'm not an educator, that's just my feeling.
There is zero evidence to suggest that reading to children makes them begin reading later. Although I guess it depends how you do it. In my family, there's a gradual transition from being read to to reading, so a child capable of reading isn't getting away with having someone else do the work instead.
Ora no one said that there was something really WRONG with reading to little kids, but lots of posters said that they were horrified that I NEVER read to my children and how can children like that learn how to read. So I showed them that my kids all know how to read. And well. And in two languages.
Everything that you write is correct. But what I, along with Shal and maybe one or two other posters found missing in the list of things that need to be done on a dailly basis was LIMUD TORAH for the husbands. Now if one's husband is in kollel all day that's one thing, then he can be home at seven or eight and spend the next hours until bedtime with the wife and children doing whatever has to be done around the house. No problem. But that's NOT what was being discussed. Not kollel men but rather full time working men NOT in torah or chinuch or whatever they do that would put them in a situation where they would be learning torah at least in part of their work.
What I found amazing was that with the whole list of things that other posters started listing right on page one that is a priority (along with camp) not a single one of them mentioned limud torah for husbands...and then a poster wrote that Limud torah was a LUXURY and that shocked me (and Shal as well) that a frum woman would write that.
I still haven't heard any poster except her and myself write that it is a priority in their home that a husband learn torah every single day, even if it means that the wife has to either do most of the domestic herself or outsource it...but not outsource it to her husband if it means that it comes in place of his learning torah every evening.
Anyone saying that limud torah on a daily basis for their working husband (not in kolllel and not in chinuch) is a priority in their daily lives?
Everything that you write is correct. But what I, along with Shal and maybe one or two other posters found missing in the list of things that need to be done on a dailly basis was LIMUD TORAH for the husbands.
Aren't you the only person who gave a list of things that need to be done on a daily basis? As a "this is what working moms have to get done," kind of thing, nothing to do with learning Torah or not... I don't remember anyone else posting a list.
Quote:
What I found amazing was that with the whole list of things that other posters started listing right on page one that is a priority (along with camp) not a single one of them mentioned limud torah for husbands...and then a poster wrote that Limud torah was a LUXURY and that shocked me (and Shal as well) that a frum woman would write that.
Well, we weren't talking about limud Torah. We were talking about camp, that is, parenting. It makes sense that people were talking about what's necessary vis-a-vis their own interaction with their children, and not about what's necessary in terms of their husbands.
The person who said limud Torah is a luxury was IMHO clearly deliberately using that language in response to other posts/ other use of the word "luxury." I doubt she would have said the same in a different context.
Everything that you write is correct. But what I, along with Shal and maybe one or two other posters found missing in the list of things that need to be done on a dailly basis was LIMUD TORAH for the husbands. Now if one's husband is in kollel all day that's one thing, then he can be home at seven or eight and spend the next hours until bedtime with the wife and children doing whatever has to be done around the house. No problem. But that's NOT what was being discussed. Not kollel men but rather full time working men NOT in torah or chinuch or whatever they do that would put them in a situation where they would be learning torah at least in part of their work.
Women whose husbands are in kolel do not (usually) expect them to be helping them on a regular basis in the evening. The idea of kolel is that a man can learn as much as possible, not for him to have evenings (or Sundays) off to help out. Some avreichim have a break in the evening for an hour and a half or two and, depending on how much the wife needs them, will help out before going out for another seder. Of course there are sometimes exceptions, like the wife needing her husband's help after birth or if she is sick, ch"v, but usually a wife will try and manage most or all evenings on her own, at least once the little children are in bed.
ora_43 wrote:
The person who said limud Torah is a luxury was IMHO clearly deliberately using that language in response to other posts/ other use of the word "luxury." I doubt she would have said the same in a different context.
I might have read it that way if there weren't several posts afterwards agreeing that "letting" a husband go to learn, even for an hour a night, is completely off the wall.
I still am totally disturbed by this. Again, it's like camp - if a woman is temporarily in a situation when she can't manage without her husband helping her in the evening, I can understand. But if a frum home is being "built" like that on a permanent basis - someone has to sit down and reassess their priorities. Why can't she "allow" her husband to go out for an hour or two? Maybe she needs to spend less time shopping, or less time baking, or less time going out, or more time with family time without Abba, or get paid help if it's possible, or not volunteer to make a cake for her Aunt Jemima's simcha - everyone with their own priorities.
But tell me where and when, among Jews with yiras shamayim, they didn't think (and make it possible) for the husband to learn daily?
I haven't read the entire thread, in fact all I read was the first post but I wanted to present another angel.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe never liked the concept of vacations. He didn't feel right about vacations from Torah learning.
That said however Lubavitch has a camp too, we have camp gan Yisroel. Why did the Rebbe encourage and support this? because camp wasn't just about having a vacation and mucking around. Yes they had fun, but there is learning as well. When my daughter comes back from camp the first thing she tells me about is what great shiurim they had. She loves telling over the stuff they learnt and discussed.
Where I live it's winter now, and my kids recently went to winter camp. My son came back and told me about the makeshift unheated mikva they had and how FREEZING it was. I asked him if he used it and
he said yes,he went to mikva on most mornings in the freezing cold except for the last day of camp because of time constraints. And he wasn't the only one. other kids were there too for a quick dip in the freezing cold water on a winter's day
I was awed, these were just kids, and this is what they were coming away from camp with.
I find it interesting too that where I live the goverment actually provides funding for camp.
A huge chunk of our camp bill is paid for by the goverment. of course how much you get depends on your income but the point is, the secular goverment seems to think it's a worthwhile cause so why not us too?
I'm also under the impression that the camp helps out with expenses by those that can't afford, I think they do collect tzedoka for it and I don't have a problem with it.
These camps are not just about having fun, the kids actually learn and come away with a lot from it.
Other then that they'd be sitting around at home doing ...what?
You think I'm going to organize shiurim for my kids at different age levels while they are at home?
I've got younger kids to run after and clean up after, and during vacation it's the hardest, you think I can provide for what the camp gives them at home?
just not gonna happen
Actually Pickle, "wah wah wah" is crying and complaining and you seem to over look the fact that I'm NOT the one complaining but rather responding to other's complaints.
WRONG!!! have you ever seen charlie brown? It sounds like you have not because then you would not have made that comment. When the adults spoke on charlie brown all you heard was "wah wah wah wah" not crying. Just talking that he only paid attention to a few words here and there. When a person rambles on and on, there is less likely hood of most people paying attention.
Actually Pickle, "wah wah wah" is crying and complaining and you seem to over look the fact that I'm NOT the one complaining but rather responding to other's complaints.
WRONG!!! have you ever seen charlie brown? It sounds like you have not because then you would not have made that comment. When the adults spoke on charlie brown all you heard was "wah wah wah wah" not crying. Just talking that he only paid attention to a few words here and there. When a person rambles on and on, there is less likely hood of most people paying attention.
I don't think there was Charlie Brown on TV when FS and I were kids. My sister who is 46 got a Charlie Brown book when she was little, maybe 5 or so? And that was *my* exposure to it. So maybe also FS never realized there was audio. Personally, I also didn't understand the "wah wah wah" part.
Actually Pickle, "wah wah wah" is crying and complaining and you seem to over look the fact that I'm NOT the one complaining but rather responding to other's complaints.
WRONG!!! have you ever seen charlie brown? It sounds like you have not because then you would not have made that comment. When the adults spoke on charlie brown all you heard was "wah wah wah wah" not crying. Just talking that he only paid attention to a few words here and there. When a person rambles on and on, there is less likely hood of most people paying attention.
I don't think there was Charlie Brown on TV when FS and I were kids. My sister who is 46 got a Charlie Brown book when she was little, maybe 5 or so? And that was *my* exposure to it. So maybe also FS never realized there was audio. Personally, I also didn't understand the "wah wah wah" part.
When I looked it up charlie brown has been around since the 50's in cartoon and since the early 60's on TV. FS might be too old to remember charlie brown if she was in her mid 70's now, which I get the feeling she is not.
The wah wah part makes sense if you have seen charlie brown which I thought was a common reference to people who grew up in the the US.
Actually Pickle, "wah wah wah" is crying and complaining and you seem to over look the fact that I'm NOT the one complaining but rather responding to other's complaints.
WRONG!!! have you ever seen charlie brown? It sounds like you have not because then you would not have made that comment. When the adults spoke on charlie brown all you heard was "wah wah wah wah" not crying. Just talking that he only paid attention to a few words here and there. When a person rambles on and on, there is less likely hood of most people paying attention.
I don't think there was Charlie Brown on TV when FS and I were kids. My sister who is 46 got a Charlie Brown book when she was little, maybe 5 or so? And that was *my* exposure to it. So maybe also FS never realized there was audio. Personally, I also didn't understand the "wah wah wah" part.
When I looked it up charlie brown has been around since the 50's in cartoon and since the early 60's on TV. FS might be too old to remember charlie brown if she was in her mid 70's now, which I get the feeling she is not.
The wah wah part makes sense if you have seen charlie brown which I thought was a common reference to people who grew up in the the US.
I watched every Charlie Brown special there was, including A Charlie Brown Xmas, am quite familiar with how the adults sound, and clearly and unqusttionably interpreted the post as stating that people were whining. Inserting the arguments that one side made made that perfectly clear. In Charlie Brown, the parents were always incomprehensible. Sorry, but I view this as an ex post facto attempt to justify an offensive post.
AFAIK, the Charlie Brown noise is usually transcribed as MWA MWA or GWA GWA.
but I'll stick with Targum series and classic American kids' literature...
