With the exception of the "Fat Thread" I don't think I've seen such intolerance & nasty, judgmental attitudes. Some of you ladies need to try imagining how YOU'D feel if you were made to feel inadequate by a Mrs. Cleaver-type.
I wasn't a perfect mother, far from it, & B"H I must have done SOMETHING right because I have great kids. I went back to work 3 1/2 weeks after one child was born, many nights was "anorexic night" because Mom hadn't prepared supper & it was a fend for yourself affair, my DH spent 9 months working overseas so for that time I was a neglectful, working, cookless "single mom" & it makes me absolutely sick to read post after post after post of smug, self-righteous, patronizing put-downs directed at women who have to deal with all kinds of issues you lot know nothing about & who, LIKE YOU, are doing the best they can.
AAARRRGGGHHH
Thank you, Bubby. Some of us have said that pages ago.
I actually just started writing a post of what my day is like and then decided what's the point, I'll just get more unsolicited (ridiculous, rather) advice, more of the condescending attitude which I think is based on complete nonsense anyway.
But I'm happy to see some of us get it. And that some Bubbies really do remember what it's like to raise kids- haven't forgotten the hard, frustrating parts and only remember the good times. I guess that could be some kind of bracha eventually.
Sigh. No one can talk theory about something that may make someone feel bad?
So no one should talk about their children because women with IF might get offended?
No on should talk about their cleaning help because women who can't afford it might get offended?
No one should ask questions on expensive sheitels because women who can't afford it might get offended?
Remember, no one is judging an individual poster. We are talking about the general population. If you aren't coping, you need to figure out how to cope.
when I worked full timew I had 3 kids and did both read books to them and made up my own. I think everyone can do everything that is important to them.
Not true. At some point I realized that if I have 6 constant important things to do every day, and let's say 3-4 more things come up for specific days, some things are going to get lost somewhere along the way.
I wrote this on FB a while ago and got good response, so apparently I'm not the only one.
Wow so many people here have mothers who work\ed FT!
My mother did too. But when I was six, my father died and she had no choice.
She worked relatively locally so she was able to leave after we did (8:15) and come home about 5 minutes before us (4:20).
She did all her own cooking (from scratch 99% of the time), all her own cleaning, all the laundry etc, etc, etc. She really is superwoman.
FS, I choose to parent my children at the expense of my household. So when I am working FT, the kids get fed, bathed, played with and read to before bedtime. Then we all sing together and do bedtime together if feasible.
Its not important to me to attack the dust bunnies under my bed. It is important to me to spend time iwth my children.
You want to drink an energy drink? It's called diet and exercise. But it's not liquid.
Sing it, sister! I'm a runner, and if I'm addicted to anything, it's endorphins. I was actually being snarky about the need for energy drinks, because I find this kind of preachy post a tad bit insufferable and oddly reminiscent of Martha Stewart before her stay in prison. (Seriously, I think Martha's much more likable post-incarceration.)
Off to plant fast-growing wheat and milk a goat - I'd like a cheese sandwich for lunch so I'd better get crackin'!
If we're talikng about choice (and not tzedaka), no way would I want the home atmosphere FS describes! I think many mothers and kids may be able to function that way, but it's far from ideal.
Last year and much of this year, I read to two particular kids of mine almost nightly. They are 9 and 8! And can read independently. But it makes a HUGE difference in their lives if Mommy reads them books and leads hashkafic discussions that arise, whether it's Bakers Dozen or Peter Pan. Much more of a bonding experience when I can be a SAHM and take time each day to really focus on my children.
Day after day of frenzied multitasking and relegating Mommy tasks to young children is too stressful for my family. But maybe it works for other families. I also multitask and have kids helping! But there is a limit. A healthy level and duration are essential for us.
Last edited by Isramom8 on Fri, Jul 29 2011, 10:37 am; edited 1 time in total
Chocolate Moose you said it. A healthy diet and exercise and yes, it really DOES give one energy.
Bubby! I am sure you were a great mother! And no one is putting anyone else down. If they are happy with their lifestyle and it works for them, terrific! But if women are complainng here that they can't cope with what they have daily, and that they can't understand how anyone can work full time and take care of kids and a house, I just showed them that for many of us it is possible one way or another.
Reading or not reading to one's children is a spinoff of that. One can keep adding on what they feel as "necessitiies". If one person says "I want to spend an hour a day reading with my children" that's fine. But when they say I want to spend an hour a day reading with my children and it means I don't have time to clean the house so I get a maid for that and can pay for it", also fine. And if people say "I want to spend an hour a day reading with my children and not cooking so I want to buy mostly take away foods" and they can afford it and their family is ok with it - also fine.
But that's not what we were talking about.
What happens when a woman has to work full time, and CANT afford take home food or can't eat it because of additives or doesn't think it's healthy. And what happens when a woman works full time and CANT afford cleaning help? Well, some of you answer that her husband has to do the chores with her 50-50.
And to that I say that if that works for you, it's your choice but there are still many women of all kinds - charedi, MO, DL and everything in between - who put their husbands learning torah as a priority up there and even higher than having them work with her doing housework. Because that's the torah way. Femisim - gender equality and torah CLASH ladies. You can't have both. Sure, you can start cutting corners, making your own shulchan oruch and saying "it is more important to have a rested wife than a husband learning torah every single day"...but my question is - are women really so weak that they can't do most of the household things while their husbands learn at night?
Also - if you look at what I wrote, did I say that husbands do absolutely nothing and "expect" to be served? If you as mommy working full time can't get your act together to have a hot meal ready, fine and dandy but then it's not just DADDY who is going to eat bread and shmeer and a cut up cucumber for dinner, you are going to eat it, and so are all the kids. That's fine too. But there are some things which DO need to be done. A bit of cleaning, some shopping, some cooking.
Didn't I write that a husband getting up for Vasikin can also make sandwitches every morning for the kids? And didnt I write that on his way home from shul he can bring fresh milk and bread every morning? Didn't I write that when he goes down to his shiur he can also take down the trash on the way? Didn't I write that he can help you with hanging laundry at night when he gets home? And didn't I say that if there are heavy things to be moved it can wait until he gets back from his shiur and then HE moves them? Didn't I say that he spends time with the kids hearing about their day and fahering them (not a typo - fahering not "fathering") about what they studied and especially going over kodesh with them? So he's not exactly a non-existent dad. And like so many fathers who work long hours (except here it's not just working but also learning), he is home with his family on shabbos and that's the day everyone recharges their family batteries. Belive me, when someone says "where's daddy" and you answer "he is learning with his chavrusa" or "he is at a shiur by Rav X" or "he is GIVING a shiur " like my kids were used to hearing, it makes for a wonderful norm. Because daddy DOES come home and the kids know the place of torah in your family's life (and this from a woman who wrote that she really doesn't broaden her own torah horizion or go to shiurim - the lines of demarcation in this family are definitely drawn and I am very happy with them. Anyone who is NOT is invited NOT to make these choices, it's a free country ladies, even here in EY).
Back to what husbands do or don't do. As per shopping if you don't have time then use Telesal or whatever telephone or internet shopping exists. So then what exactly are we talking about that a husband doesnt DO? That he doesn't on a regular basis do: 1) sponja 2) dusting 3) vacuming 4) sinks and toilets and bathtub 5) putting in the laundry or taking it off the line, folding and putting away.
Big deal.
He is 1) spending time with chidlren, hearing about their day and fahering them about their kodesh 2) preparing their food 3) bringing home fresh food every morning 4) possibly getting up at night to a crying child if necessary either along with you or instead of you unless we are talking about a nursing infant 5) taking out the garbage 6) doing the heavy stuff around the house and 7) LEARNING TORAH and not only earning your olam habo but also giving the children a wonderful example of what a Jewish husband does. If he can in terms of his work time no one said he can't drop the kids off at gan or maon if it is on his way and not yours, and no one said that if he gets off at the right time he can't pick them up on the way home instead of you.
So what's the problem? It's not like you are a slave and he is a parasite.
Some of this equality talk reminds me of what my mother used to say about it regarding these couples who "split the work". Sunday, tuesday and Thursday she diapers the baby. Monday, wednesday and Friday HE diapers the baby...and on shabbos...the baby diapers itself!"
I don't think it helps shalom bayis to make up rules about how much husbands should do in the house/ with the kids. It's individual to each couple's marriage.
Isramom why do you feel it is so important to read to an 8 and 9 year old who are quite capable of reading fast and efficiently on their own? Can't you just have the hashkafic discussion without reading the book together? I see it not only as a waste of time, but my kids would have thought it was crazy, like I didn't trust their reading abilities if I was reading to them at that age...
So instead of spending let's say 40 mintues reading them a book and 20 minutes on a hashkofic disucssion can't they just read the book on their own if it interests them, and then you can spend an entire hour listening to them (instead of them listening to you drone on reading out loud) and actually developing a really good long discussion?
About making up rules Isramom I'm with you. But somehow I am really surprised that I don't see women striving to have their husbands learning torah daily up there with their priorities. It's as important if not more, as covering your hair, as TH, and as shabbos. Remember:
With the exception of the "Fat Thread" I don't think I've seen such intolerance & nasty, judgmental attitudes. Some of you ladies need to try imagining how YOU'D feel if you were made to feel inadequate by a Mrs. Cleaver-type.
I wasn't a perfect mother, far from it, & B"H I must have done SOMETHING right because I have great kids. I went back to work 3 1/2 weeks after one child was born, many nights was "anorexic night" because Mom hadn't prepared supper & it was a fend for yourself affair, my DH spent 9 months working overseas so for that time I was a neglectful, working, cookless "single mom" & it makes me absolutely sick to read post after post after post of smug, self-righteous, patronizing put-downs directed at women who have to deal with all kinds of issues you lot know nothing about & who, LIKE YOU, are doing the best they can.
AAARRRGGGHHH
I'm guessing that you were a wonderful mother. Are a wonderful mom.
Look, people have different priorities in life. And within certain parameters, that's OK. For me, kids are first, last, and foremost, THE priority. Since I worked (part time or full time, depending upon when you're talking about) since DS was about 8 months old, my priority, when I'm at home, was and is always him. The counter can always be wiped down and the dishes washed tomorrow, or when he's in bed. When he was little, the bedtime books, talks and snuggles were the best -- BEST -- part of my day. But for people with different priorities, who can't bear to see a dirty dish and think that a crumb on the kitchen floor is the opening cry of the end of civilization as we know it, who am I to judge.
And people have different levels of energy. I have to say that I read what some people here do in a day, and think they must be on speed. And I read what other people think is exhausting and want to go feed them vitamins and some nice lean protein. But we all have certain levels of energy, and different capabilities. And its not helpful to criticize someone who is doing her best.
Chocolate Moose you said it. A healthy diet and exercise and yes, it really DOES give one energy.
Healthy diet, yup. But have you noticed ladies who work really hard are often either much too skinny, or much too fat? It is VERY hard starting a good diet when working a ton, and even 1000 times harder to start exercizing. I have no doubt it is worth it, but for many moms, it is just not an option.
For info, I had much more energy before I had DD and migraines - and I eat much better now.
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Because that's the torah way.
Not quite, from the mouth of rabbanim... but it is better women who go through this believe it, because if not, then what remains for them?
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Femisim - gender equality and torah CLASH ladies. You can't have both.
I'm fine with the Torah way. Not the "BTitis case of eishes chayil" Torah way, though.
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are women really so weak that they can't do most of the household things while their husbands learn at night?
Most women were not created by Hashem as strong Goliath types.
Interestingly there is a minhag found in places all around the mediterranea - heard of in italy, Tunisia, Greece... that the husband "goes to the market" and brings back the shopping.
Why? "It was considered not tznius for women to go to the market where the sellers are men", one Tunisian author says.
"There is no way a woman can shlep food for many people", my grandma says.
To reassure you, you don't need to be always doing something for kids to see it is important and absorb it. And if something consistently comes before the kids and the shalom bayis, kids will resent it. Ex I'm not ALWAYS reading, but DD has seen books are good and interesting.
Wow. I was away from the computer and missed a few pages. A few questions and thoughts.
Is the Cleaver reference June Cleaver? Were people getting bent out of shape because there's this renewed Happy Homemaker pressure going on?
And about reading to the kids: having worked as an assistant in an early readers' program, it's great, it helps kids, understanding stories, sequence, being able to rhyme - all this is great prep for reading readiness. And it was never a chore for me because I love reading, to myself and aloud. But I guess it's like many arenas of homemaking and parenting - some we love and do regardless of the time constraints, some we gotta do regardless, some we outsource, some balls we drop...I'd put reading in that category if we interact and stimulate our kids in other ways.
Personally I don't buy when a mother with married kids says "My kids turned out fine". Ofcourse you say that. Ofcourse you think what you did was a great job but yet we have a whole section on this website for women with abusive mothers. HELLO!!! do you think that their mothers think they did such a bad job?
I know people who learn a lot and they are everything but shomer mitsvos. Shomer mitsvos = kashrus, shabbes, nidda if married. I have a conservative/renewal (his own label) friend who learns all day and works in learning. I know OTD people who keep nothing but learn learn learn.
Just like there is something in between maggots and wiping walls, there is something between not learning daily and just not doing anything else.
"Talmud Torah" by us is considered regular plain Hebrew, and not bearing any Sefardi pronounciation. Have you heard someone talk Sefardi or Mizrachi way? it is not just a lack of Ashkenazi accent...
Ruchel I have a feeing that if you were lucky enough one day to find a doctor who would get to the root problems of your health issues and maybe then find you the right type of food to eat or something like that, you might find yourself with a lot more energy. Until then, use the energy you have for good things and try to eat right for your body type and get a bit of healthy exercise until you have more strength.
Look people, I certainly didn't write what I did about working mothers to bash anyone but to show that there are maybe a few things that people complaining about here can nevertheless learn from how other people cope. No one said that one has to 100% copy anything I do or anything anyone else does, these are sugestions.
But one thing isn't a suggestion but still shock. I put limud torah as a priority for my husband. He works full time and therefore in spite of the fact that much of his work has to do with torah, he has to learn or give his pure torah shiurim after work hours (there IS no before, he goes to vasikin). And I find it hard that this isn't a priority for ALL Jewish women on this site no matter what their denomination.
In my case, what I give up in terms of energy is taking on most of the domestic to free his time to learn. But in other cases there are women who dont have the desire or the strength to give up their own "free time" and use it for the domestic (which includes the kids of course, but mostly here the housework as the kids learning and stuff is also the husband's domain), then do it a different way. Some will use their financial resources for a cleaning woman and spend that time with their kids. Others won't cook but will use take aways and readi mades and read for themselves or their kids or go sit with friends during the time they would have cooked.
But I don't hear most of you saying - yes torah learning for men is up there top of the priorities for us!!! And that's what's bothering me. Because you don't have to sew if you hate it - you can buy clothing, you don't have to have windowboxes full of spices if you don't enjoy it - you can buy everything in the market. You don't have to clean if you absolutely hate it or have no strength - you can hire a cleaning woman. If you have the money. Just don't come to me for zedoko if you don't because then I will tell you, lower your standards of cooking and cleaning, do it yourself and let your husband learn.
You can outsource most things with money. But you can't really outsource limud torah. Yes there is yisachar and zevulun but does that teach men torah? Does it give him torah knowledge or only the zechus for paying for someone else to learn?
So I just don't buy the fact that women NEED their husbands to do 50% of the domestic chores instead of spending that time learning torah. Because many of us cope just fine doing it without them so that they can learn in their spare time. And those who don't buy the services.
The problem I see is if you can't afford take away and cleaning help and childcare (to get us back to the camp topic) during the summer and you want to be rested and happy and you still want your husband to come home and help you instead of learning when he gets home. Well something obviously has to give. But what I find so chaval, so terribly terribly sad, is that for so many of you it seems that what "gives" is the husband's limud torah.
What do you think that teaches your children about Jewish values? Those of you whose husbands ARENT in kollel and aren't klei kodesh and work in whatever that isn't torah and the only torah they can be involved in learning is AFTER work? It may teach them gender equality. It may teach them that husbands can make a good sponja etc. But I, for one, don't see it teaching them torah values. Because the sachar that one gets when sacrificing (that's us ladies) for Torah is incredible. In Olam hazeh and olam habo together.
Ruchel I wrote what I did about Sefaradi hebrew because in davening, the Tav in Talmud toro doesn't have a dogesh (a dot) which means in davening ashkenasiz you pronounce it "salmud" but many people who don't say that part of davening wouldn't recognize the word to be "talmud" so I wrote it out. Because only sefaradi pronunciation makes every "tav" with or without a dogesh, into a T and not an S.
FS, my problem is migraines. It is not hard to diagnose, but impossible to eradicate. It is in the brain, and in the DNA (the genes have been found, at least some). At best if you have only one or two type of triggers that you can control, you can avoid most of them. But I don't control weather, hormones, and stress of every day life.
I can have a LOT more energy, if I am willing to have a lot more migraines, by not taking my daily meds. But then either I take more painkillers than allowed, which is unhealthy for the heart, or I am in bed every other day or every 3 days, which is not a life, but could have been my life anyway 50 years ago.
There is nothing else. I have seen the top neurologists, they don't even adjust my treatment because it is good. But it is not a cold that will go away.
As long as I don't eat triggers and have enough carbs (fake or not) and sugar (fake or not), I am fine food wise too (as much as eating for your body type is trendy in some places, I am happy with eating right for my migraines LOL). But with a low blood pressure you cannot be energetic. That's it. In my mom's times, when meds were really bad, migrainers had more energy, and a lot more migraines, much stronger and longer ones, and eventually could have damage from painkillers. Easy choice...
And at least in my world, I am lucky that I have a treatment that works without making me fat or needing BC, and that I have "only" something like that and not dangerous. Maybe Israeli women are all strong and healthy. Many of my friends are "tired", with or without a medical reason. Some are around my age and also much sicker. Or have various "smaller" issues adding up.
That said.
I dont see why my priority should be that my husband learns as much as possible (as opposed to what he needs daily) at all cost. No rabbi said so, on contrary, by me. Being a mentsch, treating your wife better than yourself, is a mitsva at least here.
There are even families I know personally where I would say the husband does more like 80% of the chores, for various reasons.
I agree with you fully Ruchel that "at all cost" doesn't work. Not for me, not for you not for anyone. In your case you obviously do need help whether it is your husband around or paid for help with the house, food or something else.
No one said "at all cost". But you will probably agree that there is a world of difference between a healthy young mother without migranes and illnesses like you describe and women who are ill, or are right after childbirth or have infant twins and triplets at home. I just don't understand the women who put torah learning right down there with the priorities that come AFTER making sponja together. But I guess that's who I am and where I come from and how I was taught.
I wish you good health and that the doctors should neverthless find some kind of cure for the migranes that doesn't involve loss of energy!
Personally I don't buy when a mother with married kids says "My kids turned out fine". Ofcourse you say that. Ofcourse you think what you did was a great job but yet we have a whole section on this website for women with abusive mothers. HELLO!!! do you think that their mothers think they did such a bad job?
OK, I take it back. My kids (married & single) are monsters: rude, slobby, fat & lazy, work-shy, & every other lousy quality you can come up with. And you're quite right, I was/am an abusive mother.
But you know all that, because you know some of them.
