And what if your kids aren't one on top of another? You have a two year old and a four and a half year old and an eight and an eleven and a fourteen year old? Not uncommon.
Also remember, I keep talking about FULL TIME WORKING MOTHERS. Those ladies who come home after a day's work at 5, 5:30 or 6 PM. And there are lots of them. When mothers who keep saying that children will never know how to read or will be lacking yada yada yada if you don't read to your children keep saying this, they just add an additional layer of pressure to the shoulders of young women who are basically busy almost round the clock.
So I am saying the opposite. You DONT have to read to your kids to get them to have a vivid imagination, wonderful language skills and love reading as they get older. You DO have to spend time with them, even if it is when you are doing something else and most important you HAVE TO TALK TO THEM and have them TALK TO YOU. Over and over. They have to see books in the house, and it's nice if they see you and your husband read (although I do not think that my children have ever, but ever ever see their father take out a stam "reading book", because either he was reading for work or it was a sefer he was learning from, not a "novel" or whatever..)...and most important it IS possible for them to learn to read in school and be encouraged to read at home...but it doesn't have to come from MOMMY reading them a book or DADDY reading them a book or ANYONE reading them a book when they are younger.
So let's lay off the guilt trips maybe for full time working mothers, that they are shortchanging their kids. In my opinion they are not. IF they talk to their kids and tell the little ones imaginative stories.
No Tamiri reading to your children is NOT one of the pillars of civilization but a new invention of the past 150 years or so.
And it's all so nice that all of you had time to read to your kids but there are other, just as good ways, to develop your child's language skills and imagination and love for books. Don't most kids learn to read in school by five? And how much exactly do most kids remember before that age? Meaning do you all remember your mothers reading to you AFTER you were five?? Why did you need her to read to you when you knew how to read already? I don't get it...
First of all, no - kids aren't all reading by five. Of my own five, only one was reading by that age (in 2 languages) and the rest learned at 6, in first grade. The joy of reading to themselves came in 2nd grade or so. Reading to your child is quality "cuddle time", just one of those things. And is it really such a recent invention? My grandparents were all European, lest you say it's an American invention, and knew the importance of reading to your children/grandchildren. It's not the ONLY way to develop their minds, of course. But it's certainly a pleasant way. Look at all the pleasure in threads where a children's book is mentioned. And how pleased was one of my Facebook friends when I mentioned that a comment of hers reminded me of Frances the Badger. And another FB friend corrected me when I got Frances' sister's name wrong. We were all read to. My parents aren't 150 years old but I think they came of age at around the same time children's books became widespread and affordable, which they weren't 150 years ago. When, again, did they invent that printing press? LOL
But tell me, how many of you with five kids and who work full time and care for your own house have an hour a day per child (or even half an hour a day per child) to sit holding them exclusively on your lap reading each one an age appropriate book? Talk about reality check...
I never worked full time with more than one child, and only work part time with the current child I read to, but I imagine that if, as most women, the kids are close in age, you put them all in bed, plunk yourself down, and read. Not to each one individually, which is a luxury that only 1-2 kids can have. And you have to hope not to fall asleep while reading.
Ok, I was also going to comment on this part of what FS wrote (along with many others)
My mother always worked full time. There were 4 of us at home (the ages varied, but we were all home together at some point in her life) I dont remember my mother doing more house work than being with us and doing things. She did most of her "home" work when we were either doing homework or asleep. I dont remember seeing her do laundry when we were awake, unless we were there helping her do the laundry while watching a movie together or something.
Not an hour a day per child, but always available to us when we were home from school.
I dont know, it is obviously a priority thing. To me it is much more important to spend the extra time with each child than having a clean floor or folded clothing right after its come out of the drier. Its just different strokes for different folks.
Again, I want some of FS's magic energy potion. I was up on the middle of the night with a vomiting, hysterical, non verbal 3 yr old, and my 6 yr old was up by 630 with multiple requests and stories. Its only 830 a.m. And I dont have the energy to move. The list you posted yesterday would take 2 days to complete! How do you have such an unrealistic picture of a busy mother's energy level? And how cwn you not see beyond your own version of life amd realize that not everyone has the drive to find that extra bitvof energy and push themselves so hard every day? At some point the mother will just burn out and collapse. Your problem in this entire thread, and on many other threads, is your unwillingness to look out of your own box and concede that all women were not created equal and were endowed by their Creator with different personalities, stamina levels, attention span, interests, etc. It baffles me how as a therapist you fail to see the world in anything but black and white, with no shades of individuality.
And what if your kids aren't one on top of another? You have a two year old and a four and a half year old and an eight and an eleven and a fourteen year old? Not uncommon.
Also remember, I keep talking about FULL TIME WORKING MOTHERS. Those ladies who come home after a day's work at 5, 5:30 or 6 PM. And there are lots of them. When mothers who keep saying that children will never know how to read or will be lacking yada yada yada if you don't read to your children keep saying this, they just add an additional layer of pressure to the shoulders of young women who are basically busy almost round the clock.
So I am saying the opposite. You DONT have to read to your kids to get them to have a vivid imagination, wonderful language skills and love reading as they get older. You DO have to spend time with them, even if it is when you are doing something else and most important you HAVE TO TALK TO THEM and have them TALK TO YOU. Over and over. They have to see books in the house, and it's nice if they see you and your husband read (although I do not think that my children have ever, but ever ever see their father take out a stam "reading book", because either he was reading for work or it was a sefer he was learning from, not a "novel" or whatever..)...and most important it IS possible for them to learn to read in school and be encouraged to read at home...but it doesn't have to come from MOMMY reading them a book or DADDY reading them a book or ANYONE reading them a book when they are younger.
So let's lay off the guilt trips maybe for full time working mothers, that they are shortchanging their kids. In my opinion they are not. IF they talk to their kids and tell the little ones imaginative stories.
I was not trying lay any guilt in my posts. I was saying that my mother always worked and still does, full time (and sometimes even at home - she is a early childhood teacher) and yet, there was still time to read to us (that was just the exampl given in the thread)
as for the space between kids, my siblings and I are as follows:(me)32, 28, 22 and 17. so what?
when I worked full timew I had 3 kids and did both read books to them and made up my own. I think everyone can do everything that is important to them.
Shabbat were you describing America? Where a mother has Sundays to do her housework and laundry? And you describe her being home when you were home from school. Here in EY that's not really possible with small children if you work full time out of the house. They come home at 1:30 or latest at 4 from a long school day, while a full time working mother is often home at 5, or even 6. Also if your mother was a teacher she wasn't working long day was she? Big difference.
The spacing between children was as per what Tamiri was saying, that if they are all close in age you throw them into a bed and sit and read to them. But what is appropriate for a 2 year old is not appropriate for a ten year old by any means so that really depends. If you have a kid of 1,2,3,4, and 5 maybe you can get away with it but I really don't know many women with kids spaced like that.
I think FS woukld make an amazing military general, with the way she expects the world from the world without cutting anyone any slack. She truly lives in some make believe lala land. I would love to visit that lalaland once to get a swig of that magical potion.
That's it small bean "everyone can do everything that is important to them". Is is first and foremost that a full time working woman give her family some food because without food they aren't alive to learn to read!
Everyone got so het up about the cleaning but did you note that in my sched you clean like that only one evening a week? And if instead of having time for yourself to read or to be on the computer on those two nights someone decides to sit and read to her children for an hour and a half, geh gezint! It certainly was not on my priorities as I don't like reading to kids, didn't like anyone reading to me either! Don't find a need for them. Read voraciously today, my kids all read voraciously today and we all cuddled more than enough. So whats the problem?
Also shabbat you say you never remember your mother cleaning or doing laundry. Maybe she had household help? Remember that I was talking about full time working women who do NOT have household help. Many of us didn't and couldn't afford it with such families when we were just starting out.
Mamabear you have said over and over you have a SN child with serious issues. So you aren't the norm when you descirbe what happens are you? Or does everyone have SN kids these days? I don't exactly see it happening. In any case I hope that you get through the day ok and are rested enough for shabbos.
Also it reads a lot harsher than it is when one lives it in reality. And yes I am very organized as are many more people than you think. It's not hard when you get used to it and it is a wonderful way to live if you work and want to get things done and have a big family. Women truthfully always did it, they just didn't write it down like I did..that's what scares you. But ask around some of the really put together balabustas who work and have families, the multitasking and organization is pretty much the only way to get it done if you don't have loads of money to spend on household help, prepared foods, etc.
With the exception of the "Fat Thread" I don't think I've seen such intolerance & nasty, judgmental attitudes. Some of you ladies need to try imagining how YOU'D feel if you were made to feel inadequate by a Mrs. Cleaver-type.
I wasn't a perfect mother, far from it, & B"H I must have done SOMETHING right because I have great kids. I went back to work 3 1/2 weeks after one child was born, many nights was "anorexic night" because Mom hadn't prepared supper & it was a fend for yourself affair, my DH spent 9 months working overseas so for that time I was a neglectful, working, cookless "single mom" & it makes me absolutely sick to read post after post after post of smug, self-righteous, patronizing put-downs directed at women who have to deal with all kinds of issues you lot know nothing about & who, LIKE YOU, are doing the best they can.
That's it small bean "everyone can do everything that is important to them".
I disagree. Do you think my 33 yr old friend (Marussya bat Tanya for tehillim...) WANTS to be in bed in the dark all day?? she wants to go out and work so she can have a decent file to adopt a child or afford more treatments. But she CANT.
Less drastic, BH, I would looooove to have an easy time visiting my family in Israel. I cant. I also can't run a marathon (yes, some can, but most can't).
As for special needs children, no, not everyone has one, but I do notice that in some circles MANY have them. So it should be taken into account.
If anything, I feel sad for the Cleaver or the "strong woman does it all alone" types. This is not real life, this is not LIVING! I don't know how to express it...
Shabbat were you describing America? Where a mother has Sundays to do her housework and laundry? And you describe her being home when you were home from school. Here in EY that's not really possible with small children if you work full time out of the house. They come home at 1:30 or latest at 4 from a long school day, while a full time working mother is often home at 5, or even 6. Also if your mother was a teacher she wasn't working long day was she? Big difference.
The spacing between children was as per what Tamiri was saying, that if they are all close in age you throw them into a bed and sit and read to them. But what is appropriate for a 2 year old is not appropriate for a ten year old by any means so that really depends. If you have a kid of 1,2,3,4, and 5 maybe you can get away with it but I really don't know many women with kids spaced like that.
My mother leaves the house at 7:30 and does not get home until after 5 pm. She gets to work at 7:45. She starts at 8ish and works until 4 or 4:30. yes, it was in america, but laundry was not usually done on sunday. it was done after we were in bed or with us. housework was not for sundays, ever. maybe washing the dishes.
So, then you are saying that it is a MUST for full time working mothers that come home after 5 pm to never do things with their kids here in Israel? That they must come home and do housework and housework and housework? They must let their husbands learn whenever they want, they must be able to do it all the way you do it? well, I have no comment to that.
You make your way seem like the only proper way. It is not.
That's it small bean "everyone can do everything that is important to them". Is is first and foremost that a full time working woman give her family some food because without food they aren't alive to learn to read!
Everyone got so het up about the cleaning but did you note that in my sched you clean like that only one evening a week? And if instead of having time for yourself to read or to be on the computer on those two nights someone decides to sit and read to her children for an hour and a half, geh gezint! It certainly was not on my priorities as I don't like reading to kids, didn't like anyone reading to me either! Don't find a need for them. Read voraciously today, my kids all read voraciously today and we all cuddled more than enough. So whats the problem?
Also shabbat you say you never remember your mother cleaning or doing laundry. Maybe she had household help? Remember that I was talking about full time working women who do NOT have household help. Many of us didn't and couldn't afford it with such families when we were just starting out.
Mamabear you have said over and over you have a SN child with serious issues. So you aren't the norm when you descirbe what happens are you? Or does everyone have SN kids these days? I don't exactly see it happening. In any case I hope that you get through the day ok and are rested enough for shabbos.
Also it reads a lot harsher than it is when one lives it in reality. And yes I am very organized as are many more people than you think. It's not hard when you get used to it and it is a wonderful way to live if you work and want to get things done and have a big family. Women truthfully always did it, they just didn't write it down like I did..that's what scares you. But ask around some of the really put together balabustas who work and have families, the multitasking and organization is pretty much the only way to get it done if you don't have loads of money to spend on household help, prepared foods, etc.
Nope, FS, my parents never had anyone come in to clean, do laundry etc until I was well out of the house (I left when I was 23). It was all done by us family members. That is the important word here. memberS, plural, not just the ema of the household. Never. My father folder laundry. He did the dishes, whatever needed to be done. Gosh, I mowed the lawn. I did my laundry. Whoever could, did whatever they could, not just ema. To me that is a pure martyr and stupidity.
FS, ya know what? I am going to believe every single word you wrote. Know why? Cause things have changed. And something brought that change about. I guess women like you!
The men are doing a heck of a lot more and making do with a heck of a lot less, in my eyes. Too much, but that's not my business. And you know why that is? Because women doing all that you did grew balls. And married guys who then got shrunken balls. So now, the women are still doing the full time work thing but are lax on the rest and the men are not advancing as much on the job but they are doing food shopping, baby runs, heck baby leave of absence, doctors appointments etc. and it's all thanks to the hard work of you and women like you all around.
So, is that a good thing? You suffered for the good of the coming generations?
What MAN would have been willing to come home to a pig sty back in the day?
What MAN would take off work to tend to his children?
What MAN came home early to babysit?
What MAN didn't expect to sit down to at least one hot meal/day?
What MAN didn't expect to come home and find neatly folded underpants and shirts in his drawers?
Today, it's all acceptable.
etc.
Things have a' changed, no doubt!
And that's why camp isn't a luxury.
I also want some of FS's energy drink. In fact, I might start carrying a flask of it with me. Seriously, between the fun afternoon of ripping TP, the daily wiping down of every surface in the apartment (a mere Swiffering suits me just fine, TYVM!), sewing skirts from bedsheets, laundry as a form of flirting, and the need to spend time I'll never get back to sift huge batches of flour prior to storing it in the freezer, I'm beginning to wonder which one of us is living on Planet Earth. Certainly, my reality never resembled this one. Having spent a lot of time reading Superman comics, it's Bizzaro world to my 55-year-old slightly astigmatic eyes.
Then again, I read all kinds of books to my kid and even - GASP - took him to the Jewish Public Library for Story Time! I liked the fact that he was culturally literate and knew about the Little Engine That Could, The Cat In The Hat, the Berenstain Bears and could identify each Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle by the colour of their headbands. I bought pre-sifted flour, facial tissues and was not above organizing cleaning blitzes that consisted of "Let's see how much we can get done before the pizza is delivered. 1-2-3- GO!!". Homework was expected to be finished before dinner, so there could be time for relaxing including TV watching, reading, Little League, occasionally going out for ice cream, and so on.
How does this hearken back to how I was raised? Pretty close, actually. Both my parents worked outside the home and I remember my mother discussing the importance of the presence of a father in kids' lives. The exact phrase she used was "You don't want the kids to see you so little that they think of you as 'Uncle Daddy', do you?" My father swept floors, washed dishes, read to us kids, and was the King of the Grill on Sundays. Both my brother and I benefited from his presence and from the fluidity in gender roles displayed in my house. I can drill, hammer, paint, assemble IKEA furniture, knit and crochet. I also love to garden, but am seriously thinking that the herbs I'm growing (mint and basil) just won't hack it if I'm going to aspire to FS' standards.
My parents both worked full time when my siblings and I were growing up , and by full time I mean they were out of the house by 7 am and not home until at least 6 pm. My father definitely made time to learn while still helping my mother by taking out garbage, doing dishes, cooking some and helping with cleaning. My mother also read us bed time stories every night. It is something I look back on fondly. She also nursed/pumped each one of her five children for at least a year. She's in her early sixties and still works Monday-Friday as well as brings home work which sometimes keeps her up until 11 pm or later.
Even my saba is BH pretty ball-less.
After years in the camps, he got married and worked FT, sabta didn't work, and still he handled the mornings ON HIS OWN (sabta was sleeping in) and as exhausted as he was when he came back home, he helped, again.
Today at 88 (ad 120!!) he still does a lot around. But maybe his chassidish parents raised him feminist
