How much learning is needed torah learning for a man? I think that we might be talking about 2 different things. Lubavitchers even single women learn CHITAS. That days chumash, tehillim and tanya (chassidus). It is broken up so that its completed every year. Plus before davening in lubavitch there is shiur, some men might not during the week but forsure before davening on shabbos.
So are you talking about learning on top of this? Or is this considered enough learning for all you ladies. This is standard for all working men in our community.
What really confuses me is when women consider torah learning for anyone but men a luxury?
That being a SAHM is a luxury?
A women resting after birth a luxury?
Covering your hair in the standard of your community a luxury?
How much learning is needed torah learning for a man? I think that we might be talking about 2 different things. Lubavitchers even single women learn CHITAS. That days chumash, tehillim and tanya (chassidus). It is broken up so that its completed every year. Plus before davening in lubavitch there is shiur, some men might not during the week but forsure before davening on shabbos.
So are you talking about learning on top of this? Or is this considered enough learning for all you ladies. This is standard for all working men in our community.
What really confuses me is when women consider torah learning for anyone but men a luxury?
That being a SAHM is a luxury?
A women resting after birth a luxury?
Covering your hair in the standard of your community a luxury?
I still dont understand how you can equate sahm and learning torah as a luxury?
as far as I know, there is no chiyuv for a woman to learn torah.
your hair has to be covered - what does your community have to do with it... what does it matter how everyone around you covers your hair. and if you are going to say you ar lubavitch and therefor must wear a shaitel - there are all kinds of shaitels, you can wear one that costs $30
where does it say in the torah that resting after birth is a must? I don't know how you can compare these things to torah.
I think that any minute that the husband has he should be learning. I personally think a working husband can learn an hour before davening in the morning and at least another hour at night before or after maariv... but I don't know exactly what their obligation is and I dont really think it's my business bec I'm a woman and don't take it upon myself to make sure the men are doing their jobs.
Halacha- women after birth are considered a sick person for 30 days. Their family obligations are adjusted due to her status.
SAHM was stated not by me to be a luxury previously in this thread.
Its just shocking to me that women are so obsessed with thier husbands learning but not the many other obligations that she and him also have.
I'm sorry but that is not true a woman is only a choleh for 3 days after birth - after that she would have to fast like any other woman?
not resting full time after birth is not dangerous. my docs actually say walking a bit every (for exercise after the first week) is healthy for you.
how is sahm not a luxury? where does it say a woman must stay home all day
I think learning torah is just as important as eating kosher. I dont equate sahm with eating kosher or resting after a baby... not sure I understand you
Shalhevet I am not Chasidish but I live in a Chasidishe neighbourhood and I can tell you that majority of the men here are in Kolel full time. My next door neighbour leaves his house before 6am and returns at midnight, he only comes home for a half hour in the evening. I know that he is more extreme but he isn't the only one like that. My other neighbours are out from 8-7 with a breakfast break I think and for sure an hour lunch break which is the norm. Even the ones who work make it a point of going to Shul in the evening hours.
I consider resting after a baby as dangerous physically as eating treif is spiritually.
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I'm sorry but that is not true a woman is only a choleh for 3 days after birth - after that she would have to fast like any other woman?
That's what you have to do. Some have up to 2 years of non fasting - including for some after a misc (lo alenu). Or as long as they nurse. Many other psaks. Some also don't fast during pregnancy except TBA and YK, or just YK, and even then many rabbanim are quick to say do half or take shiurim. There have been enough threads on what various people have been told.
There are varous minhagim that the mom stays home the first week, two weeks, month... too. Including btw in other cultures (some even say, to bed).
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not resting full time after birth is not dangerous. my docs actually say walking a bit every (for exercise after the first week) is healthy for you.
That's again, for you. My docs when I had DD (all non jews btw) would have killed me if I tried to exercize before the 6 week visit.
I'm sorry but that is not true a woman is only a choleh for 3 days after birth - after that she would have to fast like any other woman?
not resting full time after birth is not dangerous. my docs actually say walking a bit every (for exercise after the first week) is healthy for you.
how is sahm not a luxury? where does it say a woman must stay home all day
I remembering learning in Rambam that it was 3 and then 7 and then 30. There are stages of her recovery. Actually a woman has an obligation to breastfeed her child over most of her household duties too.
SAHM is not a luxury because its a man obligation to support her just like his torah learning obligation. We just like to forget that.
arghhhhhhh
I just typed out a whole response and it got lost
In short this time...
Learning Torah for a man is not a luxury, it is his obligation to learn all day as much as he can barring his other obligations I.e. supporting his family physically and emotionally. A man who uses Torah to escape household or marital responsibilities missed the point of his Torah learning in the first place.
How much learning and when is something that is worked out on an individual basis between husband and wife and a rav or RY. Anyone here listing how much their husbands learn or how much they sacrifice for it is wasting their time because everyone's circumstances are different.
However, the attitude must be the same for all frum Jews. Torah is our life and our greatest treasure. We should WANT our husbands to learn as much as possible and do what we can to enable that. A man is supposed to put the needs of his family and his wife before his own (including his own spiritual needs) but the wife should be encouraging and enabling him to learn and grow spiritually with whatever sacrifice she can make that will not sacrifice on her family.
(Pickly lady- a lubavitch man learns a minimum of an hour every day, between his chitas and 3 perakim rambam etc. )
Last edited by lamplighter on Thu, Jul 28 2011, 10:17 am; edited 1 time in total
If/how we can "deliver" our husband of the parnasa thing, is a shaila. It is definitely possible for many, and for many the rabbanim oppose it...
I asked the nursing shaila like 2 years ago when I read about it on Imamother. My rav (chosen for his science knowledge when I became pregnant) said nowadays with formula women don't have to nurse and if they nurse they stop when they want. Other rabbanim may hold differently especially in more pro nursing cultures. I read on Imamother some hold the wife can stop before 2 if the husband agrees, so that's a third opinion...
How much learning is needed torah learning for a man? I think that we might be talking about 2 different things. Lubavitchers even single women learn CHITAS. That days chumash, tehillim and tanya (chassidus). It is broken up so that its completed every year. Plus before davening in lubavitch there is shiur, some men might not during the week but forsure before davening on shabbos.
So are you talking about learning on top of this? Or is this considered enough learning for all you ladies. This is standard for all working men in our community.
What really confuses me is when women consider torah learning for anyone but men a luxury?
That being a SAHM is a luxury?
A women resting after birth a luxury?
Covering your hair in the standard of your community a luxury?
My take:
(1) Men and women should both learn. But in my world, its not a 24/7 obligation, such that every moment must be dedicated to it. Hashem gave us so many other things to enjoy. He also gave us so many other obligations. So there's nothing wrong with a man cleaning the kitchen, playing with the kids, watching the baseball game, or hiking in the mountains, even if that takes some time away from learning.
(2) Being a SAHM is a luxury. Its one that a couple may choose, and I'd be the last to tell you that there's no value in it. But the fact that there's value in something doesn't mean its not a luxury. In this world, we all have financial obligations that need to be met -- food, shelter, clothing, education. There are also things that are not strict necessities, but that many of us want. I want *nice* clothes, not just clothes. Contact lenses, not cheap glasses. Fresh veggies and fruits, chicken, cheese, not just soaked beans and white rice. We need to figure out how to pay for our needs, and for the things that we really want. If a family can do that with a SAHM, great. Or maybe their non-negotiable wants are fewer than mine. Whatever it is. But yes, a SAHM is a luxury.
(3) Women need to rest after birth. How long is up to the woman, her health, her family, maybe her tradition. I'd go batty resting for more than a couple of days, but that's me.
(4) Covering hair to standard of community is a difficult one, because its a real keeping up with the Schwartzes thing. If you mean "my rav says sheitl, so I wear sheitl" sure, I agree, you need to do that. But I don't think that's what most women mean. They mean "all of my friends have a $5000 custom sheitl for Shabbat, and a $3500 custom sheitl for every day, so there's no way that I can wear a $1500 sheitl, even though my husband and I are both unemployed, on food stamps, and receiving tzedaka to send our kids to school." And that's absurd. There is an obscene degree of conspicuous consumption in many communities. Fine by me for those who can afford it; who am I to tell people how to spend their money. But the fact that some can afford luxuries doesn't make them necessities for those who can't.
I agree that the other 3 are not a contradiction to each other and respect your view on them.
Barbara wrote:
(4) Covering hair to standard of community is a difficult one, because its a real keeping up with the Schwartzes thing. If you mean "my rav says sheitl, so I wear sheitl" sure, I agree, you need to do that. But I don't think that's what most women mean. They mean "all of my friends have a $5000 custom sheitl for Shabbat, and a $3500 custom sheitl for every day, so there's no way that I can wear a $1500 sheitl, even though my husband and I are both unemployed, on food stamps, and receiving tzedaka to send our kids to school." And that's absurd. There is an obscene degree of conspicuous consumption in many communities. Fine by me for those who can afford it; who am I to tell people how to spend their money. But the fact that some can afford luxuries doesn't make them necessities for those who can't.
The hair thing I am not sure of. In our community wearing a shietal is a MUST. The Lubavitcher Rebbe wanted all women Lub women to wear a decent sheital that makes them feel proud and beautiful. There are numerous gemachs to help women who can afford one. There is a HUGE difference from a $30 sheital to a $3500 one. Our community doesn't see it as a luxury to have a decent sheital. I am talking atleast a human hair one a few hundred dollars. It is not scene as keeping up with the schwatzes to have a decent sheital on the contrary the more modern lubavitchers wear tichels everyday and have the $5000 custom for fancy occasions.
I agree that the other 3 are not a contradiction to each other and respect your view on them.
Barbara wrote:
(4) Covering hair to standard of community is a difficult one, because its a real keeping up with the Schwartzes thing. If you mean "my rav says sheitl, so I wear sheitl" sure, I agree, you need to do that. But I don't think that's what most women mean. They mean "all of my friends have a $5000 custom sheitl for Shabbat, and a $3500 custom sheitl for every day, so there's no way that I can wear a $1500 sheitl, even though my husband and I are both unemployed, on food stamps, and receiving tzedaka to send our kids to school." And that's absurd. There is an obscene degree of conspicuous consumption in many communities. Fine by me for those who can afford it; who am I to tell people how to spend their money. But the fact that some can afford luxuries doesn't make them necessities for those who can't.
The hair thing I am not sure of. In our community wearing a shietal is a MUST. The Lubavitcher Rebbe wanted all women Lub women to wear a decent sheital that makes them feel proud and beautiful. There are numerous gemachs to help women who can afford one. There is a HUGE difference from a $30 sheital to a $3500 one. Our community doesn't see it as a luxury to have a decent sheital. I am talking atleast a human hair one a few hundred dollars. It is not scene as keeping up with the schwatzes to have a decent sheital on the contrary the more modern lubavitchers wear tichels everyday and have the $5000 custom for fancy occasions.
That's why I said $1500, not $30 from Paula Young (I"m getting this lingo down). From what I read here, $1500 can get you something decent, but not WOW. But I think we probably do agree here, in any case. Although I'm still a bit befuddled by another poster's (NOT Pickle Lady) claim that its a halachic obligation to own 2 sheitls, as opposed to a really nice thing that most women aspire to. Can you help me understand?
I agree that the other 3 are not a contradiction to each other and respect your view on them.
Barbara wrote:
(4) Covering hair to standard of community is a difficult one, because its a real keeping up with the Schwartzes thing. If you mean "my rav says sheitl, so I wear sheitl" sure, I agree, you need to do that. But I don't think that's what most women mean. They mean "all of my friends have a $5000 custom sheitl for Shabbat, and a $3500 custom sheitl for every day, so there's no way that I can wear a $1500 sheitl, even though my husband and I are both unemployed, on food stamps, and receiving tzedaka to send our kids to school." And that's absurd. There is an obscene degree of conspicuous consumption in many communities. Fine by me for those who can afford it; who am I to tell people how to spend their money. But the fact that some can afford luxuries doesn't make them necessities for those who can't.
The hair thing I am not sure of. In our community wearing a shietal is a MUST. The Lubavitcher Rebbe wanted all women Lub women to wear a decent sheital that makes them feel proud and beautiful. There are numerous gemachs to help women who can afford one. There is a HUGE difference from a $30 sheital to a $3500 one. Our community doesn't see it as a luxury to have a decent sheital. I am talking atleast a human hair one a few hundred dollars. It is not scene as keeping up with the schwatzes to have a decent sheital on the contrary the more modern lubavitchers wear tichels everyday and have the $5000 custom for fancy occasions.
That's why I said $1500, not $30 from Paula Young (I"m getting this lingo down). From what I read here, $1500 can get you something decent, but not WOW. But I think we probably do agree here, in any case. Although I'm still a bit befuddled by another poster's (NOT Pickle Lady) claim that its a halachic obligation to own 2 sheitls, as opposed to a really nice thing that most women aspire to. Can you help me understand?
$1500 to me is a wow. but Im really cheap. I have 2 because we have to always wear one when outside there needs to be a back-up since we always need one. There is usually a shabbos one (that for many women they cut a few years later to become their everyday one) that has often a longer style and often times is the newer one. Then there is the everyday one that its not the end of the world that it gets caught in a rainstorm and is shorter. You also need a back-up when the other one is getting washed. Wearing anything but a sheital in public in Crown Heights is heavily frowned upon even though there are women that do that that.
Shalhevet I am not Chasidish but I live in a Chasidishe neighbourhood and I can tell you that majority of the men here are in Kolel full time. My next door neighbour leaves his house before 6am and returns at midnight, he only comes home for a half hour in the evening. I know that he is more extreme but he isn't the only one like that. My other neighbours are out from 8-7 with a breakfast break I think and for sure an hour lunch break which is the norm. Even the ones who work make it a point of going to Shul in the evening hours.
I should have clarified this before - I know plenty of chassidim who learn - some have a shiur every day after working, some are in kolel. I didn't mean to imply ch"v that all chassidim don't learn or think learning Torah is a luxury - I was specifically addressing Pickle Lady's comment - and I don't even remember which chassidus she is, or know if it is representative of it, but I know other chassidus' don't hold like this.
I agree that the other 3 are not a contradiction to each other and respect your view on them.
Barbara wrote:
(4) Covering hair to standard of community is a difficult one, because its a real keeping up with the Schwartzes thing. If you mean "my rav says sheitl, so I wear sheitl" sure, I agree, you need to do that. But I don't think that's what most women mean. They mean "all of my friends have a $5000 custom sheitl for Shabbat, and a $3500 custom sheitl for every day, so there's no way that I can wear a $1500 sheitl, even though my husband and I are both unemployed, on food stamps, and receiving tzedaka to send our kids to school." And that's absurd. There is an obscene degree of conspicuous consumption in many communities. Fine by me for those who can afford it; who am I to tell people how to spend their money. But the fact that some can afford luxuries doesn't make them necessities for those who can't.
The hair thing I am not sure of. In our community wearing a shietal is a MUST. The Lubavitcher Rebbe wanted all women Lub women to wear a decent sheital that makes them feel proud and beautiful. There are numerous gemachs to help women who can afford one. There is a HUGE difference from a $30 sheital to a $3500 one. Our community doesn't see it as a luxury to have a decent sheital. I am talking atleast a human hair one a few hundred dollars. It is not scene as keeping up with the schwatzes to have a decent sheital on the contrary the more modern lubavitchers wear tichels everyday and have the $5000 custom for fancy occasions.
When did he say this? Even when he was niftar 17 years ago I don't think sheitels were like they are today.
Also what is a decent sheitel? What is a decent skirt? What if my entire community decides that any skirt costing less than 500 shekels is not suitable for a bas melech and we'll collect money from people for anyone who can't afford it?
This brings us back to the point of a community holding a gashmi standard that most people cannot afford and then expecting other people to fund it (even if people from the outside aren't funding sheitels they are funding camps, for example, which people can't afford after buying a custom sheitel).
And going back to limmud Torah - do you think our great-grandmothers' lives in Lithuania and Poland and Galicia and Yemen and Morocco were easier without washing machines and driers and freezers and ready-kashered chickens? But who thought of asking their husbands to scrub the laundry and he should miss going to daven maariv with a minyan and learning a little bit of gemorro or mishnayos or even chumash if that was all he could do, after a hard day's work? Maybe many were amei haaretz, but they knew the value of limmud Torah.
In many countries, Europe, Arabic... even the poorest lady had an even poorer maid. Of course with one, sometimes two, maids you do not need any housework help from the husband!
In many countries, Europe, Arabic... even the poorest lady had an even poorer maid. Of course with one, sometimes two, maids you do not need any housework help from the husband!
Do you know how hard those women worked? Even if they had a maid? They got up at dawn on Fridays and had to go to the shochet, get the chickens shechted, kasher them, clean and pluck the feathers - all that before they even started cooking. Go and buy the fish fresh - no fridge or freezer. Make lokshen themselves to make a kugel.
Of course those who were wealthy had lots of maids and could relax, but I'm talking about the type you mean - the poor woman in Poland with an even poorer Polish girl living in. The girl would probably be working hard meanwhile to get the fire started so they could cook anything at all.
My grandmother a"h was born in England 110 years ago and they had no help at all and she would tell me how hard they worked - and believe me all the men in town would go and learn every evening. Go and read about America and EY and England where there were no maids, and just as much work. But where they cared - the wives willingly sent their husbands to learn.
And were these families reliant on tzedaka at all? Were the husbands who were able to go learn all evening supporting their families fully? Or were the husbands up and out at 5 AM and back home at 11 PM like too many husbands today?
but Im really cheap. I have 2 because we have to always wear one when outside there needs to be a back-up since we always need one. There is usually a shabbos one (that for many women they cut a few years later to become their everyday one) that has often a longer style and often times is the newer one. Then there is the everyday one that its not the end of the world that it gets caught in a rainstorm and is shorter. You also need a back-up when the other one is getting washed. Wearing anything but a sheital in public in Crown Heights is heavily frowned upon even though there are women that do that that.
