Tamiri, as you started this thread, are you buying all the participants ice cream when we reach 100 pages? (Not from tzedaka money).
Ad 120. I'm not buying everyone ice cream. Not in the budget.
Anyway, this now NEEDS to be merged with the household thread. Please.
Helium balloon was a choopar from Black Bar and Burger, newly kosher in Petach Tikva and recommended if you want something a bit different. Birthday boy (DH) got a free cocktail and dessert and a 1.1 kilogram hamburger. Which we shared amongst three people.
Tamiri, as you started this thread, are you buying all the participants ice cream when we reach 100 pages? (Not from tzedaka money).
Is that only vocal participants, or silent ones who've been watching this thread from the beginning with a mixture of amusement and bemusement, and are eagerly counting down to the 100th page?
Tamiri, as you started this thread, are you buying all the participants ice cream when we reach 100 pages? (Not from tzedaka money).
Is that only vocal participants, or silent ones who've been watching this thread from the beginning with a mixture of amusement and bemusement, and are eagerly counting down to the 100th page?
I figure anybody with at least one post is entitled but Tamiri isn't up for it. I'll have to think of some no cost idea to mark the event.
Re household chores; once upon a time when we were newlyweds we went shopping together, I cooked, he did dishes etc. We both worked at our jobs about the same time.
Two children, a different country, very different income producing work levels it's a whole new ball game. He makes the money (I do work part time in the business) and I do everything else.
Which brings me to the point that there is some saving grace (pun intended) in having teenagers. My DS takes out garbage, changes light bulbs, washes milchig dishes (we have fleishig dishwasher). My DD does makolet runs, and washes the floors.
And back to errands etc., I just spent one hour doing three small errands, without children. I drove my car 5 minutes to the shopping area, by which time I was soaking wet because the car is so hot that the a/c doesn't cool it down that quickly. (and I live in a no-humidity place). I was outdoors for 3 minutes or so between each errand and of course when I got back into the car it was boiling again. Yes, I did feel like a shmata until I spent a good 15 minutes back in my a/c home and I'm finding the heat very draining.
1) Ceiling fans are great for some people, my mother has three, saves on electricity (no need for a/c most of the time there)
2) Never keep any kind of baloon in a room with standing fans unless they are tied and even then be careful if the fans are going. Helium baloons? do you have a death wish?
3) and most important - I was NOT describing the life of a single mom but certainly that of all working mothers I know married to FRUM men.
Why?
Because those men have lots of responsibilities that we as women DO NOT.
1) they get up very early, for me always earlier than me at my worst days, to daven with a minyan. That means that they for example are up at 5, at shul at 5:30 or 5:45, back home at 6:45 and they do what was not on my list
a) wake the kids
b) go to the makolet on the way back from shul to bring fresh bread and milk daily
c) make the sandwitches for the whole brood to take for the day
d) make their own breakfast or sandwitches to take for the day
Then, at 7 aM they are already gone, out of the house to work.
In the years where my husband worked farther away, he went straight from minyan to work and I had to do the above. B"h for a number of years he worked closer.
Many men during the earlier years here, at least the dl ones, who went to hesder and the like, only start university later, hence you are already having kids when they are still quite in school. If they have to go on for an advanced degree, they have to do this after work, and usually five or even seven years (if they studied in yeshiva for another year after finishing hesder) after the wife has finished her schooling, hence even if they both are working full time he is home later as he is also in school.
Men are required to learn, daven with a minyan, etc.
So while we working mothers were busy running around with kids etc. to doctors, cooking, cleaning the house etc. they went to mincha and maariv, and either studied or in my husband's case, gave a shiur in shul (for free of course).
Some men, particularly in chinuch, klei kodesh, administrators, etc. are always "on the job" and therefore had much less time even when they were physically at home, to do household things and kid things (unfortunately) but it is an expected part of the job. It's just the way it is. If both a man and a woman have those kind of jobs it's a real problem. We have that around here, both of us being "on call". As someone said, there are just things that aren't urgent that dont get done.
Same goes for professional men. who are "on call" at home. My son in law, the resident. When he gets home his phone is on 24/7 shabbos yuntif yom kippur. And he gets calls about his department. All the time. And has to answer. We were out with them last week and he spent 2 hours of the 4 we were together on his smartphone seeing photos of an operation that was ongoing real time to give advice. He should maybe be running after his toddler as he watches the operation? Who are we kidding? Lawyers are same, also other professionals. Not all men have a job selling or somethingblue collar or a desk job that when they leave it, they also leave their work behind.
Things that husbands do that weren't on the list
a) do household repairs
b) fix broken things
c) take out the trash
d) deal with public issues like va'ad habayit, getting moetza ishurim, etc.
e) teaching the boys "boy things" in learning etc.
f) any heavy lifting in the house
No the list isn't equal. The day that I have to go to minyan three times a day rain or shine (not that much snow around here lately) and learn gemoro and other things like that...that's when we will have "equality" and nothing will get done with the kids.
As long as he has to do that, unless I am collapsing I will wash out the toilets and sinks and when he comes home at 10 PM I want HIM to take out his gemoro or whatever and learn another blatt while I (capital) will do the economica roles. If I am after giving birth, collapsing or whatever that's a different story but everyone has their job and Jewish men, if they spend all day on parnosseh, have to spend their late evenings LEARNING (and this from a shtark MO!!! All you chassidish ladies whose husbands work, dont you push them to learn for an hour or two every evening? Every single DL/MO man of my generation in my circle - the one some of you scorn as being "half frei" - went and learned at least an hour every night - I remember my husbands chavrusas when we were younger - and every woman I know who worked full time was HAPPY to have her husband learn as WE get sachar from that too...
More after the meeting
Last time I checked, my DH was frum (at least he hasn't informed me of any change in that deprtment) and he is fairly typical for my world. Where most people see parnassa as a joint effort and the home as a joint effort. Both parties just do their best according to their inclination and make sure everything is done.
In most families in my circle, it is the men who do most of the sponja, a lot of other cleaning, food shopping, bills and finance. Most man are capable of doing laundry, bathing kids, cooking, minding children, changing linen, being in touch with teachers and caregivers, getting kids prepared to leave the house in the morning, etc. etc.
Families where the men do nothing at home are very rare and occasionally the subject of friendly mocking. I guess it is a generational thing.
Since also, in most families either only the husband or both husband and wife are home on Fridays, preperations for shabbat are almost always a joint effort.
PSA: don't leave a helium balloon on a string in a room where there is a fan going at night. It's likely that the string will get twisted in the fan and cause the motor to burn out, even if it's a brand new fan that you really like.
How was your ceiling fan until it's untimely death. DH just suggegsted we might consider buying one for our room. Do you think it's any better than a regular fan? We don't have AC in our bedroom (we don't really need it there anyway since a fan is enough for us at night, and we don't really use the bedroom during the day.
What kind of fan did you have?
This was a regular stand fan, not ceiling (we rent, remember?) with a big diameter so it cooled both the top and bottom bunks in my kids' bedroom. I LOVE ceiling fans and we had them even when we rented in the U.S. but to make a long story short, DH got sick of installing them and taking them down when we thought we'd be moving. And ended up staying.
Anyway, it's under warranty so I'll take it to the shop today.
We have regular standing fans, but we were thinking about something that wouldn't take up too much floor space, and more importantly - at least for me - I would like something my kids cannot access and turn off on Shabat.
1) Ceiling fans are great for some people, my mother has three, saves on electricity (no need for a/c most of the time there)
2) Never keep any kind of baloon in a room with standing fans unless they are tied and even then be careful if the fans are going. Helium baloons? do you have a death wish?
3) and most important - I was NOT describing the life of a single mom but certainly that of all working mothers I know married to FRUM men.
Why?
Because those men have lots of responsibilities that we as women DO NOT.
1) they get up very early, for me always earlier than me at my worst days, to daven with a minyan. That means that they for example are up at 5, at shul at 5:30 or 5:45, back home at 6:45 and they do what was not on my list
a) wake the kids
b) go to the makolet on the way back from shul to bring fresh bread and milk daily
c) make the sandwitches for the whole brood to take for the day
d) make their own breakfast or sandwitches to take for the day
Then, at 7 aM they are already gone, out of the house to work.
In the years where my husband worked farther away, he went straight from minyan to work and I had to do the above. B"h for a number of years he worked closer.
Many men during the earlier years here, at least the dl ones, who went to hesder and the like, only start university later, hence you are already having kids when they are still quite in school. If they have to go on for an advanced degree, they have to do this after work, and usually five or even seven years (if they studied in yeshiva for another year after finishing hesder) after the wife has finished her schooling, hence even if they both are working full time he is home later as he is also in school.
Men are required to learn, daven with a minyan, etc.
So while we working mothers were busy running around with kids etc. to doctors, cooking, cleaning the house etc. they went to mincha and maariv, and either studied or in my husband's case, gave a shiur in shul (for free of course).
Some men, particularly in chinuch, klei kodesh, administrators, etc. are always "on the job" and therefore had much less time even when they were physically at home, to do household things and kid things (unfortunately) but it is an expected part of the job. It's just the way it is. If both a man and a woman have those kind of jobs it's a real problem. We have that around here, both of us being "on call". As someone said, there are just things that aren't urgent that dont get done.
Same goes for professional men. who are "on call" at home. My son in law, the resident. When he gets home his phone is on 24/7 shabbos yuntif yom kippur. And he gets calls about his department. All the time. And has to answer. We were out with them last week and he spent 2 hours of the 4 we were together on his smartphone seeing photos of an operation that was ongoing real time to give advice. He should maybe be running after his toddler as he watches the operation? Who are we kidding? Lawyers are same, also other professionals. Not all men have a job selling or somethingblue collar or a desk job that when they leave it, they also leave their work behind.
Things that husbands do that weren't on the list
a) do household repairs
b) fix broken things
c) take out the trash
d) deal with public issues like va'ad habayit, getting moetza ishurim, etc.
e) teaching the boys "boy things" in learning etc.
f) any heavy lifting in the house
No the list isn't equal. The day that I have to go to minyan three times a day rain or shine (not that much snow around here lately) and learn gemoro and other things like that...that's when we will have "equality" and nothing will get done with the kids.
As long as he has to do that, unless I am collapsing I will wash out the toilets and sinks and when he comes home at 10 PM I want HIM to take out his gemoro or whatever and learn another blatt while I (capital) will do the economica roles. If I am after giving birth, collapsing or whatever that's a different story but everyone has their job and Jewish men, if they spend all day on parnosseh, have to spend their late evenings LEARNING (and this from a shtark MO!!! All you chassidish ladies whose husbands work, dont you push them to learn for an hour or two every evening? Every single DL/MO man of my generation in my circle - the one some of you scorn as being "half frei" - went and learned at least an hour every night - I remember my husbands chavrusas when we were younger - and every woman I know who worked full time was HAPPY to have her husband learn as WE get sachar from that too...
More after the meeting
Last time I checked, my DH was frum (at least he hasn't informed me of any change in that deprtment) and he is fairly typical for my world. Where most people see parnassa as a joint effort and the home as a joint effort. Both parties just do their best according to their inclination and make sure everything is done.
In most families in my circle, it is the men who do most of the sponja, a lot of other cleaning, food shopping, bills and finance. Most man are capable of doing laundry, bathing kids, cooking, minding children, changing linen, being in touch with teachers and caregivers, getting kids prepared to leave the house in the morning, etc. etc.
Families where the men do nothing at home are very rare and occasionally the subject of friendly mocking. I guess it is a generational thing.
Since also, in most families either only the husband or both husband and wife are home on Fridays, preperations for shabbat are almost always a joint effort.
My husband is home Tuesdays, but works Friday. I'm home (but not home) Friday...I need to be out of the house when my help comes to do my floors. (He can't exactly clean them if I'm standing on them.)
It's not a generational thing, it's a [dis]ability thing.
FS, do you know anything about chassidus and shmiras einiyim? Boys learning in the city while the public schools are on summer breaks? Won't happen even if thei parents will have to sell shirts off their backs.
And, yes, suburban mosdos are forgoing camp this year do to the economic decline.
Chevra, you are all great, I love this thread.
So what happens when September comes, its Indian summer, and public school girls are walking to school, and hanging out on their way home, in tight hip-slung jeans and tank tops, or mini skirts and tank tops? Are they somehow protected because its September?
And not to push it even further, but we were driving through the Monticello area recently, and saw a not insignificant number of women walking around in shorts. Do the boys never see them?
The boys don't leave their camps.
They come home b'erech when PS starts. We can't blindfold them, but we can try limiting their exposure.
I don't know why you think only chassidim care about shemiras einayim.
There are plenty of chassidim (and Litvish too) where I live who care about shemiras einayim. But our boys go to cheder in the city - actually it effects more where we go in bein hazemanim etc.
I am also interested - you mentioned a while ago that there is no bein hazemanim at all in cheder by you. I am interested what % of these boys who never got a break when they were children go on to full time learning out of choice when they are older (say still in kolel 5 years after marriage). We believe it's very important not to push little (and even slightly bigger) boys with limmud without a break, and to give them time to play.
Thank you imaonwheels. It seems like we agree, or am I too confused to understand?!? lol
I'm just wondering why no one is disagreeing with your post. Maybe because you are just the right poster. Brooklyn born, raised and married then divorced, currently living in Israel, chabbad--so not really chasseeeeeedish, and a good tongue.....
Maybe I should never take a day off to go to work.
Fortunately, I was not born in Brooklyn, I am a born and bred Burgh girl all the way and mentally decided to become an Israeli at age 9. I feel the way I do because self sufficiency is a verhy strong Burgh steel town value.
My 4th floor walk up was in the uber hot city of Rechovot, Israel. I invite any Brooklyn mom in an American 4th floor walk up to spend 1 week on the 4th floor of an Israeli Amidar apartment in the Shefela (like Rechovot) or Negev in the summer. That week should include 2 days sharav and you should be at least 8 mos pregnant and have a toddler who is only happy sitting on you. You will go home and tell your kids every day to thank HaShem for the cool comfort and space. Also in those days neighbors would bang your doors off if they heard your kids breathe between 2-4 and 2nd to 4th grade boys finished at 2pm exactly.
The house I bought was also in Rechovot, 3 blocks from the apartment in a wonderful neighborhood of mostly Temenim and some Moroccans. Tiny house but huge yard with a fence and gate. Once the number of boys reach 3 I think the yard is critical.
Yes, today I live very OOT. It was established in another thread that only Ribbie Danziger lives more OOT than I do. Now I have 6 boys and 12 gc, of course I have a house with a yard. Am I crazy?
You can "even" be less shtark and still keep shmiras eynaim on YOUR rav's criteria (not going around without your glasses...).
If a husband is like another kid, why stay? or why have more than one kid? have one, it makes two, peru urevu! (joke, but really... I don't get the appeal of such a "partnership").
We have regular standing fans, but we were thinking about something that wouldn't take up too much floor space, and more importantly - at least for me - I would like something my kids cannot access and turn off on Shabat.
Here's the Israeli solution: tie your children's hands behind their backs before you light candles.
For me, as a full time working mom who has always worked, a Working mom has the following jobs. And in my world she does all of them herself or with the exception of the first, to whatever extent with her dh if he is at all around to do some of the stuff:
1) full time work out of the house plus commute
2) shopping for food, sometimes at multiple stores
3) shopping for clothing, furniture, shoes, other household or personal goods
4) cleaning the house (dusting, vaccum, wash floors, sinks and toilets and bath or shower, wash outsides of closets in bedroom and kitchen, wipe down walls, do trisim and windows - all weekly at least)
5) cooking the food, serving, cleaning off, washing up dishes, drying and putting away dishes and pots
6) washing laundry, hanging, taking off the line, folding and putting away laundry
7) scheduling doctors appointments, houshold repairmen etc.
8) paying bills
9) taking care of banking, checkbook balancing, etc.
To that one adds things like
1) taking kids to doctors, treatments, dentists etc.
2) taking kids to friends for play dates in the late afternoon
3) having to go to your own doctors and dentist appointments
4) picking up clothing from dry cleaner
And of course depending on personal inclination"
1) sewing clothing for family
2) crocheting or knitting clothing for family
And then there are child related activities:
1) playing with your children
2) listening to your children
3) teaching your children Jewish and secular matters
4) teaching your children discipline and boundaries
And that doesn't even include special situations like:
1) caring for aged or ill parents
2) chessed communal volunteering
3) school, yeshiva or communal events you have to not only participate in but add to (like baking for a festival, a raffle etc.)
What about the husbands? When both a husband and wife work full time, why does all the house work, cooking and child rearing still fall on the mother?
When I worked and my husband was in kollel, my husband did more in the house than I did. Your list sounds right on the money for a single mother or a disfunctional home. A husband should take part more in the household duties if the mother is going to be working.
Definitely very dysfunctional.
Me, my mom, my grandma, did not do half of that - even when SAHM!
Some of those, I never hear of:
Dusting weekly, washing outside of closets except Pessach, wipe down walls at all, do windows except maybe twice a year.
8 and 9 strike me asvery male. Repairmen too. I think my mom never handled any occurence of it.
Many men take kids to docs. Late afternoon playdates, well late afternoon you are still working or commuting if you work FT... we never use the dry cleaner.
No working woman I know sews or knits LOL. In fact hardly anyone. They also do not volunteer, and I hardly know anyone who would bake for a school event? unless you mean paid.
For me, as a full time working mom who has always worked, a Working mom has the following jobs. And in my world she does all of them herself or with the exception of the first, to whatever extent with her dh if he is at all around to do some of the stuff:
1) full time work out of the house plus commute
2) shopping for food, sometimes at multiple stores
3) shopping for clothing, furniture, shoes, other household or personal goods
4) cleaning the house (dusting, vaccum, wash floors, sinks and toilets and bath or shower, wash outsides of closets in bedroom and kitchen, wipe down walls, do trisim and windows - all weekly at least)
5) cooking the food, serving, cleaning off, washing up dishes, drying and putting away dishes and pots
6) washing laundry, hanging, taking off the line, folding and putting away laundry
7) scheduling doctors appointments, houshold repairmen etc.
8) paying bills
9) taking care of banking, checkbook balancing, etc.
To that one adds things like
1) taking kids to doctors, treatments, dentists etc.
2) taking kids to friends for play dates in the late afternoon
3) having to go to your own doctors and dentist appointments
4) picking up clothing from dry cleaner
And of course depending on personal inclination"
1) sewing clothing for family
2) crocheting or knitting clothing for family
And then there are child related activities:
1) playing with your children
2) listening to your children
3) teaching your children Jewish and secular matters
4) teaching your children discipline and boundaries
And that doesn't even include special situations like:
1) caring for aged or ill parents
2) chessed communal volunteering
3) school, yeshiva or communal events you have to not only participate in but add to (like baking for a festival, a raffle etc.)
What about the husbands? When both a husband and wife work full time, why does all the house work, cooking and child rearing still fall on the mother?
When I worked and my husband was in kollel, my husband did more in the house than I did. Your list sounds right on the money for a single mother or a disfunctional home. A husband should take part more in the household duties if the mother is going to be working.
Definitely very dysfunctional.
Me, my mom, my grandma, did not do half of that - even when SAHM!
Some of those, I never hear of:
Dusting weekly, washing outside of closets except Pessach, wipe down walls at all, do windows except maybe twice a year.
8 and 9 strike me asvery male. Repairmen too. I think my mom never handled any occurence of it.
Many men take kids to docs. Late afternoon playdates, well late afternoon you are still working or commuting if you work FT... we never use the dry cleaner.
No working woman I know sews or knits LOL. In fact hardly anyone. They also do not volunteer, and I hardly know anyone who would bake for a school event? unless you mean paid.
Wow, that's sad. I bake for all my kids' school events, unless specifically requested NOT to. For big shul events too. (Ah, to live in Israel where they trust your kitchen!) I sew (when I remember to move the sewing machine out of the room the baby's sleeping in). I also crochet (kippot). I volunteer at the shul and ganim. We don't use the dry cleaner. I hang my own laundry (including the cloth diapers).
No, I'm not a martyr. I bake because I enjoy it, it saves me money, and it is safe for my allergy. Bought baked goods have almost killed me on more than one occasion.
My DH takes the kids to appointments only if they're local, or his mother can drive them, and only if it's his day off. And late afternoon playdates means after you get home from work/daycare...so clearly you're not working or commuting at the time.
A non disabled pre-teen can do most of it. But a husband could not? I am not talking of c'v someone sick, disabled, very old. My 80 yr old war survivor father who went through heavy heart surgery can still do, and still does, a nice number of things around the house. It's not about feminism. It's about mentshlishkeit and normalcy, he lives there!
NOW, a wife who will nag because he is still learning, or just not as clean freak as her, shouldn't be surprised if he prefers playing the I dunno card. We would, too.
For information my husband is the most observant of my grandfather, father and him. He is the one who does more, too. When working FT + learning, when PT working PT kollel, when FT learning, when learning + studying for a degree + doing mishnayos for my great uncle who passed childless.
Not all men, even charedi, prefer minian to their duties -nor do all rabbanim demand it. Yes, some do definitely. Same for learning OUT. Well, I say, if your rav demands it, you're in a better situation if DH goes to kollel so he has built in minian and he learns out but when he's home, HE IS HOME.
Quote:
b) go to the makolet on the way back from shul to bring fresh bread and milk daily
c) make the sandwitches for the whole brood to take for the day
Ok, this is cultural. Never heard of b, and c kids either eat at the cantina or eat home... also here not all men leave for work or kollel at 7. At DD's school about 90% of the parents who drive their kids in the morning are guys.
Quote:
Some men, particularly in chinuch, klei kodesh, administrators, etc. are always "on the job"
Can you explain this?
Quote:
d) deal with public issues like va'ad habayit, getting moetza ishurim, etc.
and this?
Professionals, I find that the type who takes work at home or has to be on duty even at home, makes enough money for a LOT of household help...
I would not think many women would be happy with a husband giving a free shiur when she needs help with all the stuff you mention.
I am racking my brain and do NOT remember my mom juggling between listening to me and housework. She kept housework to the minimum and my time to the maximum. On Sunday etc, she did more, because there was a full day. But still most of the time we would have a Sunday outing anyway.
