IsraMom, I don't get what you were all worried about. Your summer seems to be going swimmingly! Kudos!
Oh, and that 11 am drill - didn't get enough advance coverage, did it....
Whoever suggested Fantastic and paper towels for instant cleanup? Making the calculations of using a disposable towel every 15 minutes, and soap which is also not cheap, I can save more by sending my kids to a local day camp.
2 paper towels per meal, 3 meals a day (and usually one snack). So 8 paper towels a day on the table/floor cleanup.
I also usually use diluted vinegar and water, but have been using fantastick since late in my pregnancy (because of the smell) so I'm finishing up the bottle.
But if your camp is that cheap, then go for it LOL.
People who like to criticize Chassidim won't stop just because you've reminded them that no one asked them, not to give a penny and not to become a Chossid. They just don't like Chassidim and will give their opinion six zillion times because that's how worth it is is to bash Chassidim. Because there are just so many things Chassidim do wrong. And don't you know, Chassidim don't even take showers. Not even in the three weeks for Ahavas Yisroel's sake.
Um, I grew up in Monsey and my family always got solicited from Chassidim.
Were they collecting for their moised? Most chassidishe meshulachim are collecting for themselves/their family. Chassidishe mosdos generally have their own נגידים who give financial support.
Both I think. I'll double check with my mother, but she's out of town at the moment.
IsraMom, I don't get what you were all worried about. Your summer seems to be going swimmingly! Kudos!
Oh, and that 11 am drill - didn't get enough advance coverage, did it....
Thank G-d - so far yes. That's the idea, that mothers and families should stay on an even keel. I'll have big boys coming home, and then we'll see... but I AM trying to plan an intercity outing once a week. And the house was SO messy...but okay...
I may be anxious because of all those summers with many very young kids when things were more out of control. Maybe our family is growing up and out of that bizarre balagan of summer "vacations".
I feel like the only one who takes sirens seriously. Chas vehalom it should (not) be real, and everyone will go, "Oh, it must be another drill."
you can choose not to wear a sheitel or skirts, not to keep strict hechsherim, not to send to Jewish schools, not live amongst other Jews.
And that may be your definition of a frum Jewish life. Your choice. To say that should be everyone's definition is no less obnoxious or annoying or disrespectful than me telling you G-d says you must wear a sheitel every day even while sleeping.
(1) Why do you think skirts are more expensive than any other type of clothing? If anything, they're actually LESS expensive, because a poorly tailored or poorly fitting pair of pants is trash, while there is a lot more leeway with skirts. Compare your clothes to your husband's if you need proof.
(2) Tichels and scarves are quite inexpensive, and cover well. But if you feel that you need a sheitl --does anyone other than Lubavitch hold that is necessary -- then do the math. A $1500 sheitl, worn for 3 years, is $9.60 a week. Getting a $50 (moderate in NYC) haircut every 2 months for 3 years is $900. $200 a year difference. Now, if you tell me that you can't wear a $1500 sheitl, that you need to send it to the sheitl macher to have it look nice instead of doing it yourself, need more than one, and/or need expensive cuts for the hair you cover as well, we're in different territory.
(3) Strict hecsherim -- are you suggesting that the families that accept less strict hechserim are not frum? Because that's what I hear you saying. I concede that some hechshers, and being kosher in general, is more expensive. But there are certainly ways to decrease the costs.
(4) Day schools are expensive. No question.
(5) Living amongst Jews -- that can be done in a lot of places, at a lot of price points. If I were to say that I need to live in Lawrence or Scarsdale, and should be entitled to tzedaka to buy a house there, people would laugh at me. Why is that sillier than saying its necessary to live in any other neighborhood?
Barbara, I wasn't accusing anybody of anything, just to get that out of the way. I brought together the different examples people had given in this thread and others, as to why frum American life is more expensive than regular American life.
My main point was, not spending on regular "frum expenses," and then saying frum life isn't more expensive isn't exactly a fair argument.
This is kinda silly and I told myself I wouldn't do this, but here I go (why am I breaking my own rules, it just leads to trouble):
1) Skirts are more expensive than pants. Most people out there wear jeans which can be bought cheaply anywhere- Walmart, if that's where you like to shop. Skirts can't be bought anywhere. Not tznius ones anyway. Since I do most of my shopping in regular department stores (as opposed to heimish stores), I know that just about every skirt I find is either to short (especially with the style now) or with a slit. When slits are sewn down, it's almost impossible to walk comfortably. Tailoring a skirt, making your own skirts, come out to be the same as buying a good quality skirt in a heimish store- $45 is about average. I'm not even getting into how hard it is to find a skirt that looks nice.
2) I'm concentrating on sheitels because that's frum life for me. Most frum people I know own a sheitel. We know what sheitel prices are. Most people I know cut their own hair when it gets long. Many people I know wash and set their own sheitel when needed instead of burning $45 at the sheitel macher, but I'm sure we aren't the norm. Most people have one sheitel to wear every day and one for Shabbos, but the people I know have one sheitel. And sheitels generally last about 5 years.
3) My only point with strict hechsherim was that cholov yisroel, pas yisroel, certain shechitas, etc etc cost a lot more than foods that are not. We simply spend a lot more money on food. If I were to live OOT, this cost would go up enormously.
4) Our schools are generally cheaper than the typical day school but they still cost more than public school. I'm arguing that you can't say you live the "typical" frum life and don't send to a Jewish school because of the cost. Most frum people don't live that way.
5) Yes, you can live amongst Jews in many places. But many people work in klei kodesh and therefore need an in-town job where the income is consistent. Or have another parnassah reason why they can't move. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
(1) Most people don't wear jeans every day. They work, and you can't wear jeans to work. And those that wear jeans wear nice ones. But if you want to go there, here you go, $6 for a tzniut skirt. Buy one for every day of the week. Enjoy them.
I've just clothed you for a year for $118. Me, I need to spend several hundred dollars per suit or dress, that I need to wear 5 days a week. Plus Shabbat. Clearly dressing less modest is much more expensive.
(2) I've shown how having one nice sheitl is actually not all that expensive, or at least not more expensive than maintaining natural hair. Now you're talking about sending it out to be washed and set, owning more than one, etc. Well, even if you hold that there's a halachic necessity to wear A sheitl, there is no rabbi on this earth who says there's a halachic necessity to own several, and to pay someone to wash and set them. That's all choice, not an inherent cost of being frum. Hey, I'd love to have someone to blow out my hair ever week or two. Not happening on my budget.
(5) There are lots of less expensive places to live in NY where there is a minyan. Pelham Parkway, Co-op City, Moshulu Parkway, Mt. Vernon. I don't know Brooklyn well enough to come up with any, but I'm sure they exist as well.
On and on and on.
Yes, no question, it is more expensive to be frum than not to be frum. But so many things within that are choices, not necessities. Its like the old joke about the boy who killed his parents, then threw himself on the mercy of the court because he was an orphan.
I was attacked before when I asked this, but I'll ask again. If the assumption is that every family needs tzedaka because of high expenses, who is there to GIVE the tzedaka? And how can the system be maintained in the long run?
Psychologically, the three weeks, then the nine days, then Tisha BeAv help while the summer away. During the three weeks, we are revving up to be miserable. During the nine days we ARE miserable. Tisha BeAv is the peak of misery.
Having your children home helps get you in the mood. Right?
And after Tisha BeAv, there's all that laundry to get done and before you know it, school starts again.
There, the whole summer gone like the wind.
Tamiri, I'd laugh, but no - a depressing home atmosphere is too risky for my family's sanity and mine. Obviously we keep the halachos and read sad things on Tisha B'Av, but heavy misery for 3 weeks doesn't work for us.
you can choose not to wear a sheitel or skirts, not to keep strict hechsherim, not to send to Jewish schools, not live amongst other Jews.
And that may be your definition of a frum Jewish life. Your choice. To say that should be everyone's definition is no less obnoxious or annoying or disrespectful than me telling you G-d says you must wear a sheitel every day even while sleeping.
(1) Why do you think skirts are more expensive than any other type of clothing? If anything, they're actually LESS expensive, because a poorly tailored or poorly fitting pair of pants is trash, while there is a lot more leeway with skirts. Compare your clothes to your husband's if you need proof.
(2) Tichels and scarves are quite inexpensive, and cover well. But if you feel that you need a sheitl --does anyone other than Lubavitch hold that is necessary -- then do the math. A $1500 sheitl, worn for 3 years, is $9.60 a week. Getting a $50 (moderate in NYC) haircut every 2 months for 3 years is $900. $200 a year difference. Now, if you tell me that you can't wear a $1500 sheitl, that you need to send it to the sheitl macher to have it look nice instead of doing it yourself, need more than one, and/or need expensive cuts for the hair you cover as well, we're in different territory.
(3) Strict hecsherim -- are you suggesting that the families that accept less strict hechserim are not frum? Because that's what I hear you saying. I concede that some hechshers, and being kosher in general, is more expensive. But there are certainly ways to decrease the costs.
(4) Day schools are expensive. No question.
(5) Living amongst Jews -- that can be done in a lot of places, at a lot of price points. If I were to say that I need to live in Lawrence or Scarsdale, and should be entitled to tzedaka to buy a house there, people would laugh at me. Why is that sillier than saying its necessary to live in any other neighborhood?
Barbara, I wasn't accusing anybody of anything, just to get that out of the way. I brought together the different examples people had given in this thread and others, as to why frum American life is more expensive than regular American life.
My main point was, not spending on regular "frum expenses," and then saying frum life isn't more expensive isn't exactly a fair argument.
This is kinda silly and I told myself I wouldn't do this, but here I go (why am I breaking my own rules, it just leads to trouble):
1) Skirts are more expensive than pants. Most people out there wear jeans which can be bought cheaply anywhere- Walmart, if that's where you like to shop. Skirts can't be bought anywhere. Not tznius ones anyway. Since I do most of my shopping in regular department stores (as opposed to heimish stores), I know that just about every skirt I find is either to short (especially with the style now) or with a slit. When slits are sewn down, it's almost impossible to walk comfortably. Tailoring a skirt, making your own skirts, come out to be the same as buying a good quality skirt in a heimish store- $45 is about average. I'm not even getting into how hard it is to find a skirt that looks nice.
2) I'm concentrating on sheitels because that's frum life for me. Most frum people I know own a sheitel. We know what sheitel prices are. Most people I know cut their own hair when it gets long. Many people I know wash and set their own sheitel when needed instead of burning $45 at the sheitel macher, but I'm sure we aren't the norm. Most people have one sheitel to wear every day and one for Shabbos, but the people I know have one sheitel. And sheitels generally last about 5 years.
3) My only point with strict hechsherim was that cholov yisroel, pas yisroel, certain shechitas, etc etc cost a lot more than foods that are not. We simply spend a lot more money on food. If I were to live OOT, this cost would go up enormously.
4) Our schools are generally cheaper than the typical day school but they still cost more than public school. I'm arguing that you can't say you live the "typical" frum life and don't send to a Jewish school because of the cost. Most frum people don't live that way.
5) Yes, you can live amongst Jews in many places. But many people work in klei kodesh and therefore need an in-town job where the income is consistent. Or have another parnassah reason why they can't move. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
(1) Most people don't wear jeans every day. They work, and you can't wear jeans to work. And those that wear jeans wear nice ones. But if you want to go there, here you go, $6 for a tzniut skirt. Buy one for every day of the week. Enjoy them.
I've just clothed you for a year for $118. Me, I need to spend several hundred dollars per suit or dress, that I need to wear 5 days a week. Plus Shabbat. Clearly dressing less modest is much more expensive.
(2) I've shown how having one nice sheitl is actually not all that expensive, or at least not more expensive than maintaining natural hair. Now you're talking about sending it out to be washed and set, owning more than one, etc. Well, even if you hold that there's a halachic necessity to wear A sheitl, there is no rabbi on this earth who says there's a halachic necessity to own several, and to pay someone to wash and set them. That's all choice, not an inherent cost of being frum. Hey, I'd love to have someone to blow out my hair ever week or two. Not happening on my budget.
(5) There are lots of less expensive places to live in NY where there is a minyan. Pelham Parkway, Co-op City, Moshulu Parkway, Mt. Vernon. I don't know Brooklyn well enough to come up with any, but I'm sure they exist as well.
On and on and on.
Yes, no question, it is more expensive to be frum than not to be frum. But so many things within that are choices, not necessities. Its like the old joke about the boy who killed his parents, then threw himself on the mercy of the court because he was an orphan.
I was attacked before when I asked this, but I'll ask again. If the assumption is that every family needs tzedaka because of high expenses, who is there to GIVE the tzedaka? And how can the system be maintained in the long run?
Remember that my point was that it is more expensive to live a frum life. So we agree. I doubt it's worth it to haggle over the few hundred dollars we disagree on.
(Btw, I own a few Hanes shirts and they're unbearably uncomfortable.)
I don't recall what happened last time you asked the question, but simply, there are wealthy or better-off people in the community who give generously. Also, even the average person donates their maaser somewhere.
Gryp, if skirts are expensive, learn to sew like I did and my kids did. You can make beautiful inexpensive skirts for pennies from remnants, from permapress sheets on sale etc.
If sheitls are expensive do what I did when I got married. Second hand sheitls, or paula young type sheitls, wash and dry at home. I wear one every single day and you can be sure I look nice and decent. when one can afford custom or real hair, fine. If one can't there ARE doable alternatives and lots of people do them.
Hechsherim are expensive. Those who don't have enough money and the hechsherim are top priority cut back on the amount of food and type of food (no prepared products, fruit/veg only in season, dry goods in bulk) so that the overall cost can be exactly the same as regular hechsherim or even non hechshered food abroad. Many do it.
Yeshiva tuition is expensive. If a person has absolutely no resources it is possible to send to public school and get a melamed in the afternoon. A whole generation of frum girls in Britain did it and came out quite frum. It is not a great idea. It is better to look to volunteer in the school for a tuition reduction as my own mother did when I was younger and we didn't have the money to pay. If a certain school is someone's priority other things have to go in order to pay for it
One can live amongst' yidden in many places. But if living in a specific place is important to one, then again, something else has to be sacrified for it. Food, apartment size, clothes, vacations, furniture, entertainment, camp.
And last but not least Gryp, if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen instead of trying to kick other people out.
Well, even if you hold that there's a halachic necessity to wear A sheitl, there is no rabbi on this earth who says there's a halachic necessity to own [I]several
Actually, the LUb Rebbe held that you should have TWO sheitlach. One for every day and one for Shabbos.
Today I went to boro park to a dusty, musty furniture warehouse to choose new (discount) chairs for our new palace. I couldnt do that if my kids were with me. Then I got back, famished and exhausted, and met my sister for lunch. Picked up my 6 yr old from cheder, bought him shoes, returned him to cheder, and made the rounds of four different stores for some househokd essentials. Then it was time to pick up the 3 yr old... I arrived home 5 1/2 hours after I left, starved and exhausted. All ina day's work... Working mothers don't take their kids to work either :-D
Mama Bear you have got to learn what I learned when I would be out for many hours and wouldn't know when I would be home. Do you carry a big bag or a small handbag? If a big bag then take some food with you. An energy bar or a cut up apple even in a baggie, something to keep you going. And always go with a bottle of water even a small 200 g (6 oz) bottle. It's mamash pikuach nefesh in this heat.
CM the Lubavitcher rebbe may have said two sheitls but he didn't say that they had to be custom. There are very inexpensive ones which can look lovely.
CM the Lubavitcher rebbe may have said two sheitls but he didn't say that they had to be custom. There are very inexpensive ones which can look lovely.
Who said they have to be custom. I have spent $2500 in ALL for all of my sheitals since I got married 10 years ago. I don't wear customs AT ALL but I do have 2 shietels at all times. One for shabbos and one for everyday.
Pickle that is admirable. But when other women complain about lack of money and then are posting that they need custom sheitls because only with those do they feel that they look good and the Rebbe said that a woman has to look good and buy a decent sheitl (he sure didn't mean custom...)
Or when women who aren't Lubavitch and wear sheitls talk out of one side of their mouth how a kallah has to have two custom sheitls when she gets married to the tune of over $6000 or even $10,000 total and at the same time say that they don't have money for a chasuneh, or need to collect money for hachnosas kallo for someone so that she can have a custom sheitl...it makes more than one poster here ask, "hey, I dont wear a custom sheitl but a regular out of the box one so where exactly does it say that a sheitl for a poor bride or one who can't afford it has to be custom???"
Whoever suggested Fantastic and paper towels for instant cleanup? Making the calculations of using a disposable towel every 15 minutes, and soap which is also not cheap, I can save more by sending my kids to a local day camp.
2 paper towels per meal, 3 meals a day (and usually one snack). So 8 paper towels a day on the table/floor cleanup.
I also usually use diluted vinegar and water, but have been using fantastick since late in my pregnancy (because of the smell) so I'm finishing up the bottle.
But if your camp is that cheap, then go for it LOL.
JUST TWO PAPER TOWELS PER MEAL!! WOW!!!! I use atleast half a roll a day and smattas. Also those disposable clorox wipes. you must have super clean kids. oh wait!! you only have 2 kids...ahh haaa thats the reason.
Thank you, thank you for that fine introduction SI {She says bowing and concealing the knife in her belt and AK -47 behind her back}
I must admit, I have no intention of reading 90 pages of here we go 'round the mulberry bush. there is no new imamother thread under the sun and many of us have been down this road before. For those of you who don't know I have an opinion on everything and it is usually a combination of what we do in Lubavitch (identified as such) and what I have learned in 30 years of parenting, teaching, counseling and 10 years of forum posting and moderating.
Camp. For me (said Lubavitch outlook) is a necessity because the Rebbe set up sleep away camps, praised them as 24/7 educational immersion. The Rebbe did not approve of summer vacation but said that if there is vacation it is only from limudei chol. It is assur to take a vacation from Talmud Torah,The only time he left CH was to visit a camp - to make sure the gashmius was high enough standard. So every year I paid a zillion payments to pack of 3-4 happy campers each year. I got my money's worth. In my day each age group had its own professional melamed and 2 trained counselors. There was 3 hours of learning every day that was not a trip day for older kids and shorter for younger. My kids lived camp alol year and the counselors they had when they were 8-9 are still in touch with them and act like big brothers. One of them even housed one of my rebellious teenagers for 2 years until he calmed down. So what is camp?
To be fair there were scholarships but I, a single parent raising 4 children on child support alone, was never called in the lottery.
The deciding factors are the same as anything in chinuch. The issues are the needs of the family, needs of the child, type of camp and hashkafa. The financial issues win if camp is not chinuch.
{Extends claws} If your type of camps is all swimming, fun, campfires and crafts with an occasional 15 min davar Torah then shame on you for taking caspei tzibbur unless you are a certified social or medical exception. I had 4 small children on a 4th floor walkup for a number of years. I got 4 kids home while I was a single parent with mostly boys. When they were young there was only day camp until 3. Nobody paid for me and I never dreamed to ask.
The community owes nobody a 24/7 babysitter.
I tend to hold that tzedaka money is necessary to maintain luxuries like the cheder, mikva and the truly poor.
If you are a working Mom the cheshbon is the same as the other months, income = salary - childcare.
Yes, some people are spoiled but that only will continue if the community supports it. Holders of the community funds have a responsibility to those who gave to use their investment wisely.
OTOH, if you are truly continuing your child's education by sending to a camp with a structured learning program that compliments and maintains his school level then like all chinuch girls' can be taken from family maaser, boys' no but it is a mitzva to help those who don't have.If peace and quiet and freedom to get things done is an unexpected side bonus so be it, but if that qjuiet is your intention then pat for camp your self.
To another group, the "I grew up just fine without camp" group. My guess is most of you grew up frum. You think you know what the streets are like for the best kids. You are wrong. They were real bad when I grew up on them and they are worse today. If a Mom really can't keep tabs on her kids better they should even go to a let's play camp.
I guess what I am trying to say is this is really an individual thing but should be made with an objective person helping in some cases.
As to all of the side arguments. What is the big deal in fighting about how much it costs to be a Jew. I don't sew, get over it but the Parsim in the shuk sell cheap skirts even for those as large as I, we are not in Monsey. And why criticize others observance. You don't like it from us evil Israelis. I need shaitels that work, I do not have the option of wandering around outside in anything else. I need shchitat Lubavitch, CY, PY and badatzim. if you do not so what, I do. The hat, tichel cheaper is a bluff. Shaitel is one or 2 for years. Usually your Shabbos turns into every day when marrying off a kid gives you an excuse to buy a new one. Hats and tichels you need a wardrobe because they must match the clothes. Quality hats, like Helen's cost a bomb and then next year they are out of style. In every minhag you can be wasteful or thrifty but you cannot tell others that their type of avoda is wrong or unnecessary. If you have smicha just scan in your teuda to see if you have the right to pasken for yourself let alone others.
I am going top finish this in the beginning. There have at times been amazingly stuck "yes, but" posters on this site. I am a nebuch, I have a problem that is totally unsolvable. You cannot have an answer or I will call you an unfeeling, insensitive beast. Otherwise, why would you be so mean as to take my problem away, we are used to each other. is the "There is no recreational activity at all in Yerushalayim and if there was I am too incompetent to get there" lady still here?
What Tamiri said is smack on in her circles. My guess is that by many others as well. For those who realize the harm in being a month or 2 out of routine and those teachers hate the wasted time on review because of the long vacation see it differently. A learning camp is part of the yearly education expenses and should be budgeted for.
I would ask why people worry about going to camp but choose to live in a hot sweaty city (oh, no don't say it again...) where all they can afford is a 4th floor walkup. The 1st thing I did after my divorce was sell my 4th floor walk up to buy a house with a yard. The ex was never home so we could bake in Amidar Hell. And I had just lost the ex's good hi tech salary. Love your kids, keep them in a good environment. And if you can help a Jew who is willing to help himself send his kids to camp do it. But choose your beneficiary wisely.
