I think the issue really being debated here is whether being a SAHM should be considered a luxury. And I'll say some inflammatory things to hopefully get this thread to 100 pages. Too bad the Israelis are already in Shabbat.
I think what's not being said here, by the people who don't think it's ok to take zedaka for camp, is that if you are a SAHM, your job is to stay at home and not work, and be a MOM-- ie, take care of your children. If you are wealthy enough to be able to stay at home, and survive on one income, and pay tuition, and send to camp, and hire cleaning help or live-in help or babysitting, more power to you! It's great to be there for your kids. On the other hand, if you can't afford those things, but think it's an important value to be home with your children, then by all means, make it work. But that means that your full time job is taking care of your home and your children. If you feel it's that important, you have to realize there are sacrifices to living on one income, unless your DH is raking in the big bucks. And those sacrifices include, unfortunately having to take scholarships to school, not being able to afford the latest XYZ, not being able to go out to eat, and maybe not sending your kids to camp. But it's worth it, right, for the ability to be home with your children.
So what people aren't saying is, if you want to stay at home with your kids, that is your job. If you feel it's too much for you, and you can't be home with your x number of children day in day out when they're not in school, go get a different job, outside the home, so you can pay for them to go to camp or for somebody to come in and take care of them.
When I was in 3rd grade, my mother quit her job because the schedule wouldn't work out to allow her to be home on time when I was done with school. Because of that we MOVED from a house to an apartment to live on one income. It was a SACRIFICE to be sure, but one made because she felt it was important to be home with you-- whatever size that home was.
Maybe I'm meshuga, could be. But my mentality is, regardless of income and mentality, spending 63 consecutive days in Brooklyn in the summer is outrageous. I'm tellin' ya, outrageous! You have to see the apartments, some are 4 walk in closets big and called apartments. I recently heard that the latest craze is moving into 3 room apartments, eating in the tiny kitchen and transforming the dining room to a kids room. It's mamesh a rachmanos!
Of course nobody is forcing anyone to live in Brookln, but you really think everyone can just move away?
I don't know if this was discussed or not (I did read the past 85 pages but I can't remember all of it) - forget the mother for a minuter, what about the kids?
I think it is better for many kids over the age of 6 to be in a structured program with peers for at least part of the 10 week summer vacation.
So yes, perhaps you can take 7 kids to the park or to trips and manage them all but I question whether so many weeks of it is ideal for the kids.
I do not speak from experience with my own kids, I speak as an educator.
(not to bring up the teens hanging around issue again, but way too many teens get up to trouble in the summer at least in my community. I think a parent that can afford to send a teen away for at least part of it, must! Unless their kid is a goody two shoes or a homebody. And with my experience with this age group I say this with serious conviction!)
I never said 3 under 4 was unmanageable. In many ways, I think its much easier than spacing kids farther apart.
What was said numerous times in this thread was that Brooklyn is a concrete jungle and parks are just a vast wasteland of heat. You can't bring kids to the park etc etc etc. How are you possibly going to entertain them?
Well, I don't buy that. I went to a lovely park in Brooklyn with my kids. There was shade, water activities and a variety of activities for all ages. It takes work, but its possible.
There is also the boardwalk to walk on if you don't mind heading to the beach (its hot, but lots of fun for all ages).
There is plenty to do in Brooklyn besides for roasting on the concrete if a parent is willing to put in the time and effort. But most people don't want to and want to rely on tzedaka instead.
I haven't even scratched the surface on my supermomness because you will LOOOSEE.
Lets just put it this way. I have NEVER had a person look after my child besides my husband or I (no relative EVER) that wasn't paid except a good friend as a favor.
I don't know if this was discussed or not (I did read the past 85 pages but I can't remember all of it) - forget the mother for a minuter, what about the kids?
I think it is better for many kids over the age of 6 to be in a structured program with peers for at least part of the 10 week summer vacation.
So yes, perhaps you can take 7 kids to the park or to trips and manage them all but I question whether so many weeks of it is ideal for the kids.
I do not speak from experience with my own kids, I speak as an educator.
(not to bring up the teens hanging around issue again, but way too many teens get up to trouble in the summer at least in my community. I think a parent that can afford to send a teen away for at least part of it, must! Unless their kid is a goody two shoes or a homebody. And with my experience with this age group I say this with serious conviction!)
It's Shabbos in Israel already....if not, don't ask what reply you'd get over these statements....Some Israelis claim that if a teenager can't be trusted to just spend a summer out of a structured program without parental supervision, then the parents failed in raising them since they never had this issue with their kids...
Lets say a family lives in a community where teens out of structured summer programs are at risk of getting into trouble or hooking up with the wrong crowd. The father is working his back off to feed the family, no extras. The mother is a regular, not super, woman. Is it ethical for them to accept tzedaka money to pay for their teen's summer camp?
gryp, I make my 22 month old walk everywhere we go. I make my 3.5 year old walk. That includes when I've taken them to Manhattan and they had to walk long distances.
Where do you live? I'm not a Brooklyn expert. My friend is a SAHM in Brooklyn and knows all the parks.
My kids walk every where too. I don't even have a regular double. What does that have to do with anything? I can tell you my story about Manhattan via the subways last week, but what's the point? It wasn't for fun, believe me, I'm smarter than that, than to take kids through the subway system for over an hour just for fun. I had to go see a special doctor for one of my kids and had no choice but to bring the other with. It was spur of the moment and I had no time to prepare. Oh, I also found out then that my son won't climb stairs, up or down. And those train stations don't have elevators. On top of that, poor child had to stand the whole way home after an exhausting day (seven hours later!) with no food and little drink and sitting in one place for hours on end. That's over an hour with switching trains and stations and then the walk home. I could have taken a taxi and almost did, but couldn't bear to spend the $75. Did I mention I also had my youngest with me and a stroller.
And people are suggesting I do this every day with the rest of my kids too, and it's actually fun if I would just change my attitude. I wish I could laugh but I don't find it very funny.
Kids have a limit as to how much they can walk, and I do too. How many blocks are you suggesting kids should walk? Don't forget they have to not be too tired to get home afterwards.
Let me tell you a bit about where I live. If you walk too far in any direction, you are in an undesirable neighborhood. You can't just choose any park.
So I should move, right? It's my choice to stay, so I put up or shut up. Or both.
It may sound like I'm complaining, but I'm not. I'm injecting some reality here.
I never said 3 under 4 was unmanageable. In many ways, I think its much easier than spacing kids farther apart.
What was said numerous times in this thread was that Brooklyn is a concrete jungle and parks are just a vast wasteland of heat. You can't bring kids to the park etc etc etc. How are you possibly going to entertain them?
Well, I don't buy that. I went to a lovely park in Brooklyn with my kids. There was shade, water activities and a variety of activities for all ages. It takes work, but its possible.
There is also the boardwalk to walk on if you don't mind heading to the beach (its hot, but lots of fun for all ages).
There is plenty to do in Brooklyn besides for roasting on the concrete if a parent is willing to put in the time and effort. But most people don't want to and want to rely on tzedaka instead.
I haven't even scratched the surface on my supermomness because you will LOOOSEE.
Lets just put it this way. I have NEVER had a person look after my child besides my husband or I (no relative EVER) that wasn't paid except a good friend as a favor.
Pickle, you're cracking me up.
But sorry, I beat you at that one. My kids have never had a babysitter except my mil when I went to give birth. Hmmm, one time last year my niece was over for an hour and I paid her more than what I should have. And that was an emergency appointment for me.
I was an orphaned BT bride that paid for my half of the wedding and almost all the planning for the wedding and our new apt. I paid for my half of the wedding because I worked my tush off to do it and I was 23 at the time. So does that mean there is no need for orphan wedding funds? If I could do it, why can't they?
I never said 3 under 4 was unmanageable. In many ways, I think its much easier than spacing kids farther apart.
What was said numerous times in this thread was that Brooklyn is a concrete jungle and parks are just a vast wasteland of heat. You can't bring kids to the park etc etc etc. How are you possibly going to entertain them?
Well, I don't buy that. I went to a lovely park in Brooklyn with my kids. There was shade, water activities and a variety of activities for all ages. It takes work, but its possible.
There is also the boardwalk to walk on if you don't mind heading to the beach (its hot, but lots of fun for all ages).
There is plenty to do in Brooklyn besides for roasting on the concrete if a parent is willing to put in the time and effort. But most people don't want to and want to rely on tzedaka instead.
I haven't even scratched the surface on my supermomness because you will LOOOSEE.
Lets just put it this way. I have NEVER had a person look after my child besides my husband or I (no relative EVER) that wasn't paid except a good friend as a favor.
Pickle, you're cracking me up.
But sorry, I beat you at that one. My kids have never had a babysitter except my mil when I went to give birth. Hmmm, one time last year my niece was over for an hour and I paid her more than what I should have. And that was an emergency appointment for me.
You know me, I don't even have an MIL for that either.
Lets say a family lives in a community where teens out of structured summer programs are at risk of getting into trouble or hooking up with the wrong crowd. The father is working his back off to feed the family, no extras. The mother is a regular, not super, woman. Is it ethical for them to accept tzedaka money to pay for their teen's summer camp?
Yes! And I have personally contributed and raised money for such teens. Usually the school/principal/teacher will make a recommendation to a camp and get them a scholarship as well as help raise money if need be. I've never had anyone ASK me for tzedaka to send their own kids to camp but when it is a reputable person (outside the family) who feels that it is necessary (and in the case mentioned above- it is) I would give something.
Perhaps you missed it but I don't think I'm supermom. I. Think taking care of my kids is normal and if we didn't need the insurance from my job its what I would do.
And there is a good reason dh and I moved out of Brooklyn as soon as we could.
It's Shabbos in Israel already....if not, don't ask what reply you'd get over these statements....Some Israelis claim that if a teenager can't be trusted to just spend a summer out of a structured program without parental supervision, then the parents failed in raising them since they never had this issue with their kids...
Wanna see? Wait till Shabbos is over in EY.....
Absolutely! Look, I don't have a bunch of teens and never did, as my kids are spaced quite far apart. But to think that the parents have to provide entertainment for teen agers is foreign concept. In the U.S., they hung out with their friends. One got a job at Oppenheimers as soon as he was old enough, and made a fortune. The other who was a teen when we left (13)- well, I entertained and that was it. We did the state parks, lakes etc. I don't think it was so terrible. Then again, I was a SAHM, so there was nothing to worry about them being hefker. In Israel, it's SO common for kids to be on their own all summer and for the most part, I haven't heard of any bad coming from that. Maybe because the kids are free to roam to their hearts' content.
FTR, a job would be a wonderful thing for my current teen but it's next to impossible for a kid that age to get a summer job. I'm open to suggestions.
Tamiri there are tons of jobs just not where you live, that's the problem.
In the city at 14 they deliver from makolets, from flower stores on their bicycle, and they make kaytanot for little kids. If they know English like your boys do, they start a special "english speaking chug" for kids just teaching them conversation and basic vocabulary "this is a boy" "this is a dog" "this is red" "this is blue" etc. for really little kids.
Princessleah said it as it is. Many of us have not small families, had five kids under the age of ten at some point, didn't have epidurals, didn't have cleaning help, etc. Some of us worked, others stayed home. But the idea of being a SAHM was just that - M for Mother. That's why someone was home. To take care of their kids and raise them. Because otherwise? If you weren't about to raise them but put the housework, cooking and other things on an equal footing to caring for the kids? And then asked for zedoko to help you take care of your kids whether for camp payments or anything else? Then go out to work and earn the money for it like the rest of us do. Being a SAHM ( as opposed to a WORK AHM, let's say) is a luxury. We aren't talking about CAMP, we are talking about living today on one salary. That's a luxury. Women who either work from home or outside their home are SACRIFICING. They are usually doing it because they can't afford to live on one salary. But they are sacrificing in order to do it.
Being a SAHM is also a sacrifice. You sacrifice the benefits of having a second salary. But like other things in life it is also a choice. Lifestyles are a choice. Because we live in a world which allows choices unlike in other places and other centuries. Like being frum is a choice. And when we make our choices we = being responsible adults = are supposed to be able to also cope responsibly with the outcome of those choices.
Being Chassidish is a choice. Just because someone is born into a certain family, following their derekh is a choice. Because we all know that there are other choices. And there are people who make them. If being frum wasn't a choice, and keeping mitzvos wasn't a choice, we would not be getting sachar for mitzvos! And we do, or at least so we are told...
So basically what some of you are saying is that Chassidish life...in New York...is different than chassidish life anywhere else (why? why does it have to be that way? It wasn't always that way you know, just a generation and a half ago being chassidish in NY when I was growing up was no different than being chassidish in Antwerp or in Yerushalayim....) and that you are morally supporting the creation of a way of life that means that you have to live ina place where you can't let your kids walk around even in front of their own apartment buildings, where there are no parks (except for all the parks that Saw discussed) and where you have to send them to camp even day camp otherwise...(otherwise what? Otherwise Leiby would still be alive if he hadn't gone to day camp? Anyone mention that in Brooklyn because it was sure mentioned in other places in the world in chassidish communities, heard it with my own ears)...and that mothers who stay home and whose husbands dont earn enough must ask for zedoko to send their kids to camp because they can't keep them at home because G-d forbid the apartment is so small that they might have to make the dining room into a bedroom and eat in the kitchen (hey, we don't even HAVE a dining room, nor do most people in EY)....
It's all making my head spin.
Because it sounds to me like a set up. A group of people all of a sudden decided that they had to live by a certain set of standards which they hadn't lived by until then (did chassidim in the 1940s in america also have ten kids? when did this start?) in a place which was deteriorating in terms of physical conditions (your "Ir hakodesh brooklyn" which has no parks except for all those which Saw describes ) and without giving training for higher paying jobs to the wageearners (who aren't encouraged or sometimes allowed to pursue advanced secular education) and creating a social situation where mothers have to stay home (because of non-stop childbearing) but put the house and the cooking on equal level to their role as being mothers (because of the tremendous push to show that they are such great "balabustas")....and then because of all of this absolutely HAVE to get the kids into camp and preferably out of the city (instead of realizing that so many can't afford this and looking as a community to create totally affordable alternatives inside the city that don't require charity).....AND - and this is the main point - require these families to ask for zedoko from OUTSIDE THE COMMUNITY to send their kids to camp.
Why in the world are you all perpetuating such an unhealthy situation??? Why aren't people in these communities looking for alternatives for one or more of the variables above. Why do people think that it is NORMAL to live like this and ask for zedoko from strangers to continue living like this? There is no determinism involved here, it's not like it was always like this. It evolved. And it can re-evolve differently not giving up the most important things in terms of values. You want a big family - wonderful. You want to live in Brooklyn - also wonderful. But it is not impossible to get a park built in a neighborhood, or cleaned up. For that Americans are always so proud of the fact that they have local congressmen, representatives of a discrict. In city government too. So Why do all these neighborhoods continue to exist without parks? Or maybe there ARE parks but you are too tired to go there? Why?
There always seems to be a reason not to do something or not to change...but maybe it's just easier to kvetch and take zedoko?
My kids have never had a babysitter except my mil when I went to give birth. Hmmm, one time last year my niece was over for an hour and I paid her more than what I should have. And that was an emergency appointment for me.
