Ok, from the site of the "Portuguese synagogue" in Paris + Wiki
In 1789, about 500 Yidden in Paris divided in 3 groups
"German Jews": most are from Alsace or Lorraine. They don't like their label.
"Portuguese Jews": Jews of Bordeaux and Bayonne of Spanish or Portuguese descent. Label also problematic, as there are Ashkenazic who come from these cities, and fit neither here nor there, and also Spanish Jews...
"Pope Jews": From Comtat Venaissin. Most have their own minhag. Many Sefardim. Ashkenazim.
Apparently those granted more rights, called "Portuguese Nation", are "Jews from the South-West" - be they Portuguese or not?? which was then extended to all Jews from Avignon or of Spanish descent?
Sources contradict themselves, so I'm sure it was some big mess.
Ok so I will take other examples: when we go on Sunday, we see many big families doing outings. Two weeks ago we went pic nic and we saw a family with seven kids (very rare here though getting less rare). They asked if we had a keli for netilat yadaim LOL. Apart from that it seemed very easy for them?
Was the father there? Because as I posted, most men here that I know work on Sundays, [b]and I can in no way see a mother doing this solo, AND have her housework done.[/b]
My mother bought us a moon walk, a swing set and tons of other stuff so we could have fun WHILE being home and WHILE she WORKED as a homemaker.
I don't understand. Women with 10 kids NEVER leave the house on day trips so the floor can always be clean?
Part of being a mom, IMO, is also taking the kids on day trips. So that means that sometimes (esp in the summer), housework will NOT be done, supper will be sandwiches, and the kids will all go to some great place and hang out for a few hours. That's how memories are made.
I see moms with 10 kids leaving the house here on their own very often. In fact, in the summer, I very often see busloads of women and children going up north or to some nature spot - with no men in sight. Usually chassidic looking. (I'm in Israel if that makes any difference.....almost afraid to mention that after all these threads.....it seems people think the Israeli air makes a mom somehow more able to deal with her 10 kids on her own? Or that her housework magically gets done here when she's out?)
Table now someone is going to tell us that we aren't allowed to bring examples from EY unless we sandwich them between two nice things that we say about America, and that we can't use this as an example because......whatever. So beware.
But how come my friends with ten kids in Lakewood manage to get out with the kids and Daddy isn't there as he is in the Beis Medrash? And how come my friends in Kew Gardens with eight kids gets out without Daddy as he is working, and how come my friends in milwaukee with eight kids get out without daddy for trips, even Cross Country?!
1) Large families - you are talking about 10 kids or so I presume. But all 10 can't be under age 5. So "large families" also have big kids who can be in charge of the small kids leaving mommy to take care at most of 2 small kids on her own. That's how "large" familes here in EY go on outings, to the park, to the safari, to the beach, and everyplace else. How come here they manage to go out and do these things all the time and not just sit home with 10 kids?
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Here in chassidiville, boys NEVER get off, except for shabbos and yom tov and erev yom tov...so if a family is gebentcht with boys first, then yes, it's a bunch of small kids and only a solo mother...those large families with girls first, the big girls end up going in the summer to sleep away camp...so the mother is solo with the young kids again....
Table now someone is going to tell us that we aren't allowed to bring examples from EY unless we sandwich them between two nice things that we say about America, and that we can't use this as an example because......whatever. So beware.
But how come my friends with ten kids in Lakewood manage to get out with the kids and Daddy isn't there as he is in the Beis Medrash? And how come my friends in Kew Gardens with eight kids gets out without Daddy as he is working, and how come my friends in milwaukee with eight kids get out without daddy for trips, even Cross Country?!
Growing up, we went away as a family for many many shabbosim, but almost never on a weekday. And I always felt more privileged than my peers who didn't even have that. And that is why camp always felt like such a necessity. The parents couldn't provide the outings, the kids were desperate, and camp filled those needs.
Table now someone is going to tell us that we aren't allowed to bring examples from EY unless we sandwich them between two nice things that we say about America, and that we can't use this as an example because......whatever. So beware.
But how come my friends with ten kids in Lakewood manage to get out with the kids and Daddy isn't there as he is in the Beis Medrash? And how come my friends in Kew Gardens with eight kids gets out without Daddy as he is working, and how come my friends in milwaukee with eight kids get out without daddy for trips, even Cross Country?!
Because the mother drives, maybe??????
This is a very good point which would never have dawned on me in this day and age Or even 30 and 40 years ago, actually....
Yes the father was there. Most people here do not work on Sunday.
Among my friends where both work in the couple, from what I know they manage the chores in the week as much as possible to free the Sunday, or at least every other Sunday. By some the house is still clean, by others... no. But it seems a high priority to enjoy at least half of Sunday/a few Sundays a month for family outings.
This is a European thing. Americans and of course Israelis don't find it so important or possible. We try to do outing as often as possible even though my dh works most Sundays. When we don't manage to go out, I feel very guilty.
(BTW, this family-outing-on-Sunday is said to be a reason there are ba"h proportionally many less OTD children here than in the US or Israel.)
I don't know if it could be a reason, but it is CERTAINLY a reason some people do not do teshuva. Honestly, I can understand. No outing, no seeing family... and how will the grandparents take it? and how will the kids take it to not have a day without restrictions (school 6 days, which I already find impossible personally, then shabbes rules - and homework in between??).
Israel needs a sunday, for alia reasons and teshuva reasons.
About this driving business... I'm going to say that if a women has a gaggle of kids (more than 5 or 6) and doesn't drive and lives in an apartment in the city which isn't in Israel and she feels she needs camp - she's probably right.
But all this talk about women with many kids reminds me of when I lived in a certain town. There was a family that ended up with 12 kids but started off with 6 or 7 or 8, I can't remember. They were such chevreh mahns: the mother by herself!!!! would load the kids, and maybe a friend or two into their rickety old van. Not a mini van: a van! And then she'd drive She went way out west with the kids (or maybe her husband went and she stayed home with the babies?) all the way to whatever national park they hit at the time. I want to say Yellowstone, but I am not 100% certain. Other times, she'd load up that van and they'd make the 20? hour drive down to Florida. Not once, more than once! I asked her what they ate and she said potatoes. Sometimes they'd find kosher bread, but it was all on a shoe string. And that's what she did for her kids.
While I'm not advocating every mother pack up 8-10 kids and do this, it's certainly an option, as this family proved on the simplest of budgets.
I've finally caught up with this thread! Every time I pressed "Next" the number of pages would increase exponentially. Wow!
I wanted to respond to what Fox said about Puritanism. I agree that a lot of American culture is impacted by Puritanical thinking, and for those who think that western culture couldn't get more depraved, the U.S. is actually pretty conservative in respect to the rest of the world....
But I disagree on your Jewish philosophy part. Is it universally accepted that all travails in life are ''tests" given by Hashem for us to improve our middos???? Was the Holocaust a big 'test' from Hashem? I don't subscribe to that.
And it's always been a Jewish value to work. There has to be a zevulun to support the ones who have the gift to be scholars and gedolim. Not everyone should be support to not work. How do we decide? Why is it fair if you choose to adopt a certain lifestyle, you are supported by others? The Jewish community is generous to a fault. We've created an unrealistic standard of living for people and there are very few who can afford it in full-- even basic Jewish education, which I actually believe yes, is a right, and the community has a responsibility to help with. Not so much with jewelry, strollers, cherry bedroom sets, china or fancy weddings.
Ummmmm, two of the three friends I spoke of with lots of kids...don't drive and two are chassidish.
And yet they get out. With their kids.
And the boys aren't learning all the time, what? Your boys don't get off bein hazemanim????
That's three weeks in august usually, and another three weeks in September-October, and another entire month! in Late march-April...all of Nissan! The chassidish boys I know of are definitely not in cheder during that time. Certainly not those in EY.
As for entire chadorim moving out to the country to camp, a racket. The melamed makes money on it, what do you think? The same way that the teachers in the MO schools who started camps in the USA made money on it, the same way that the teachers husband in my older kids's elementary school made a camp and made money on it as the kids were pushed to go there.
So...maybe it's time for a bit of a revolution here. It doesn't HAVE to be the way you describe. Because the boys HAVE to learn during the zman but dont HAVE to do X,.Y, Z being hazemanim. And the mothers I described? They rent a van with a driver for a long trip. yes yes driver. Even when the husband is off during bein hazemanim they rent a van and a driver as no one in that whole family even has a license! Very common here among shtarker in EY.
And they go by bus. the older girls DONT go to camp just like in some places there is no school on Fridays because chassidish girls stay home to help mommy make shabbos. Just like when mommy has a baby it is a norm that the older chassidish girls miss often up to two weeks of school to care for the little brothers and sisters. It's all in a way of life that puts the KIDS and FAMILY at the center and not a clean house, fancy meals or even schooling for girls, because those girls have to learn the most important thing - taking care of FAMILY.
Ummmmm, two of the three friends I spoke of with lots of kids...don't drive and two are chassidish.
And yet they get out. With their kids.
And the boys aren't learning all the time, what? Your boys don't get off bein hazemanim????
That's three weeks in august usually, and another three weeks in September-October, and another entire month! in Late march-April...all of Nissan! The chassidish boys I know of are definitely not in cheder during that time. Certainly not those in EY.
As for entire chadorim moving out to the country to camp, a racket. The melamed makes money on it, what do you think? The same way that the teachers in the MO schools who started camps in the USA made money on it, the same way that the teachers husband in my older kids's elementary school made a camp and made money on it as the kids were pushed to go there.
So...maybe it's time for a bit of a revolution here. It doesn't HAVE to be the way you describe. Because the boys HAVE to learn during the zman but dont HAVE to do X,.Y, Z being hazemanim. And the mothers I described? They rent a van with a driver for a long trip. yes yes driver. Even when the husband is off during bein hazemanim they rent a van and a driver as no one in that whole family even has a license! Very common here among shtarker in EY.
And they go by bus. the older girls DONT go to camp just like in some places there is no school on Fridays because chassidish girls stay home to help mommy make shabbos. Just like when mommy has a baby it is a norm that the older chassidish girls miss often up to two weeks of school to care for the little brothers and sisters. It's all in a way of life that puts the KIDS and FAMILY at the center and not a clean house, fancy meals or even schooling for girls, because those girls have to learn the most important thing - taking care of FAMILY.
FS, you are so all over the place. I don't know where to start...Where are you taking all your info from, google, wiki, or a client? I would never be able to say with certainty how MO go about their lives in Israel, since I never lived that life. And here you are, spewing twisted info, selling it as facts, and expecting everyone to reply with the agree emoticon. Whoa, you're awesome.
I'll now go back, and bit by bit, explain how many misconceptions and wrong info you put out in your post.
in some places there is no school on Fridays because chassidish girls stay home to help mommy make shabbos. Just like when mommy has a baby it is a norm that the older chassidish girls miss often up to two weeks of school to care for the little brothers and sisters.
Oy vey...
After that we find them on Imamother, 20 and newlywed, dreading being pregnant and burned out from kids and housework like a 45 yr old.
And the boys aren't learning all the time, what? Your boys don't get off bein hazemanim????
That's three weeks in august usually, and another three weeks in September-October, and another entire month! in Late march-April...all of Nissan! The chassidish boys I know of are definitely not in cheder during that time. Certainly not those in EY.
.
A) The chederim NEVER have bein hazmanim, never ever never never never. A city cheder gets off the day before they travel to camp and the day after they come home. And chder is till kittah tes, that's post bar mitzvah.
Now the ketaneh yeshivas, ranging ages 14-17, have a limited bein hazmanim. From aleph slichus till a few days after yom tov, and from vov nissan till a few days after yom tov. No bein hamtzurim break, nothing, nadda. And find me a mom who wants to take her family out erev and motzei yom tov.
Yeshiva gedolas have bein hazmanim from rosh chodesh elul thru rosh chodesh cheshvon, and rosh chodesh nissan through rosh chodesh iyur. Now unless that bochur is th eyoungest or only, what's the point of family trips if everyone else in the family is still in cheder/yeshivah?
As for entire chadorim moving out to the country to camp, a racket. The melamed makes money on it, what do you think? The same way that the teachers in the MO schools who started camps in the USA made money on it, the same way that the teachers husband in my older kids's elementary school made a camp and made money on it as the kids were pushed to go there.
This camp business, in chassidishe circles, is NOT a money business. All camps are in debt. They are run by mesiras nefeshdige people on nebachdige wages who believe in their cause: keeping the kids off the summer streets and learn in the reina luft.
Melamdim DO NOT get paid a nickel over their year long wage (which is kuppikas) and they work more hours since the boys don't go home at the end of the day for 8-9 weeks.
Ummmmm, two of the three friends I spoke of with lots of kids...don't drive and two are chassidish.
They rent a van with a driver for a long trip. yes yes driver. Even when the husband is off during bein hazemanim they rent a van and a driver as no one in that whole family even has a license! Very common here among shtarker in EY.
.
Moot point again. If the kids are forever in cheder, when is it shayech to rent a van (which here runs up in the hundreds when renting van AND driver, so we would need tzedakah...) and go on a trip....
And again, regardless of how shtark the Israeli family is, it's still not new york.
in some places there is no school on Fridays because chassidish girls stay home to help mommy make shabbos.
Hooray! Score one for one thing you got straight! Most chassidishe schools have off on Friday ages 5th grade on up.
BUT...
They compensate by having school on, lets see if you can guess-----
S U N D A Y!!!!
So the bochurim are in yeshivah, the boys in cheder, the older girls in school.
Now mommy should go solo to the park with the kleine meidlech?
Just like when mommy has a baby it is a norm that the older chassidish girls miss often up to two weeks of school to care for the little brothers and sisters. It's all in a way of life that puts the KIDS and FAMILY at the center and not a clean house, fancy meals or even schooling for girls, because those girls have to learn the most important thing - taking care of FAMILY.
NEVER EVER NEVER EVER heard of this in my entire life.Frieda, you are outdoing yourself with coming up with all these maases just to paint a certain image about chassidish society.
Wanna really know? If a girl is only LATE to school, her mom gets a call from the school asking about her whereabouts. More than two days in a row of missing school? In your dreams. You must have a real serious excuse. A mother having a baby and missing school? Are you like fantasizing? The whole school can shut down with the amount of babies born.
