So wait, what are we afraid of leaving our 14 year old bochurs alone at home. [filth] or Drugs? I'm getting mixed up with all this choice....
Actually, I think teens get into the least trouble at home. I wouldn't worry if my 15 yr old was home all day, especially if younger siblings were there too. The trouble is out of the house (camp?), not in it.
That said, kids need some freedom. I was quite shocked that some posters thought it was a good thing to interrogate their kids if they are a bit late running an errand. Or that it's a good thing to go to the park and sit on a bench to supervise your 15 yr old and his buddies (my kids would disown me, I think). Kids need some SPACE in my not-so-humble opinion. I've never known a short leash to prevent major problems; on the contrary, sometimes those kids rebel the most.
(And FS, to return to our off-topic tete-a-tete - I was not talking about off in the middle of nowhere, but about medium sized towns/cities. I don't want to get into details here, but I've seen this phenomenon of dati -not mesorati- boys in secular schools come up in more than one place, due to lack of any or a good mekif).
Kids need some SPACE in my not-so-humble opinion. I've never known a short leash to prevent major problems; on the contrary, sometimes those kids rebel the most.
About schools - I was surprised to find that while the mamadim are the better schools in some towns, they're the worst in others. Worse even than non-dati public schools because they have the kids expelled from those schools.
Why is that? I would have expected the other way around (that kids expelled from mamad end up in "regular" school). And why the difference, that in some places mamad schools are best and in others, worst?
Kids need some SPACE in my not-so-humble opinion. I've never known a short leash to prevent major problems; on the contrary, sometimes those kids rebel the most.
About schools - I was surprised to find that while the mamadim are the better schools in some towns, they're the worst in others. Worse even than non-dati public schools because they have the kids expelled from those schools.
Why is that? I would have expected the other way around (that kids expelled from mamad end up in "regular" school). And why the difference, that in some places mamad schools are best and in others, worst?
Lots and lots of factors. Depends on local population, are the 'good' families sending to the local mamad or to Noam or even outsourcing to Chabad, etc. But I wasn't talking about elementary mamad. I was talking AFTER elementary school, even after junior high, when boys especially don't have that much choice, and the 'good' boys usually go off to boarding school or yeshiva tichonit, leaving the mekif for boys who couldn't get in to the above or who don't want to go to the above for whatever reason.
It's fairly common that the high school dati mekif is not the best school around.
That said, kids need some freedom. I was quite shocked that some posters thought it was a good thing to interrogate their kids if they are a bit late running an errand. Or that it's a good thing to go to the park and sit on a bench to supervise your 15 yr old and his buddies (my kids would disown me, I think). Kids need some SPACE in my not-so-humble opinion. I've never known a short leash to prevent major problems; on the contrary, sometimes those kids rebel the most.
THANK YOU for saying this!
I suspect that many posters/parents are responding to advice being given by a handful of traveling "experts" in chinuch, technology, etc., who advise not only short leashes, but everything short of body cavity searches. These "experts" show up and give a handful of lectures in every community in which they prey upon parents' fears and lack of knowledge. As you can tell by my use of quotation marks, I don't have a lot of respect for these folks!
Of course, even a broken analog clock is right twice a day: some of them do have good points -- which are unfortunately lost in inflamed rhetoric that would be more appropriate in a Baptist church than a Torah-observant milieu.
Maybe I should start a new thread: Is camp a necessity for teenagers who live with parents who have attended too many chinuch lectures based on the format of horror movies? No! Don't go down in the basement, little Shloimy! Slurp! Oh, no! The Internet cables got him!
That said, kids need some freedom. I was quite shocked that some posters thought it was a good thing to interrogate their kids if they are a bit late running an errand. Or that it's a good thing to go to the park and sit on a bench to supervise your 15 yr old and his buddies (my kids would disown me, I think). Kids need some SPACE in my not-so-humble opinion. I've never known a short leash to prevent major problems; on the contrary, sometimes those kids rebel the most.
THANK YOU for saying this!
I suspect that many posters/parents are responding to advice being given by a handful of traveling "experts" in chinuch, technology, etc., who advise not only short leashes, but everything short of body cavity searches. These "experts" show up and give a handful of lectures in every community in which they prey upon parents' fears and lack of knowledge. As you can tell by my use of quotation marks, I don't have a lot of respect for these folks!
Of course, even a broken analog clock is right twice a day: some of them do have good points -- which are unfortunately lost in inflamed rhetoric that would be more appropriate in a Baptist church than a Torah-observant milieu.
Maybe I should start a new thread: Is camp a necessity for teenagers who live with parents who have attended too many chinuch lectures based on the format of horror movies? No! Don't go down in the basement, little Shloimy! Slurp! Oh, no! The Internet cables got him!
I am of the opinion that children need gradual responsibility, its part of being a good parent. Your child will never learn if a parent hovers over them. They need to fall and make mistakes. My personal feeling is that kids that turn to drugs, rebel are the kids with parents that never taught them to make right decisions for themselves. They could have had too much responsibility or not enough. If you don't give a teen enough space and respect they will just learn to lie better.
So wait, what are we afraid of leaving our 14 year old bochurs alone at home. [filth] or Drugs? I'm getting mixed up with all this choice....
Actually, I think teens get into the least trouble at home. I wouldn't worry if my 15 yr old was home all day, especially if younger siblings were there too. The trouble is out of the house (camp?), not in it.
That said, kids need some freedom. I was quite shocked that some posters thought it was a good thing to interrogate their kids if they are a bit late running an errand. Or that it's a good thing to go to the park and sit on a bench to supervise your 15 yr old and his buddies (my kids would disown me, I think). Kids need some SPACE in my not-so-humble opinion. I've never known a short leash to prevent major problems; on the contrary, sometimes those kids rebel the most.
(And FS, to return to our off-topic tete-a-tete - I was not talking about off in the middle of nowhere, but about medium sized towns/cities. I don't want to get into details here, but I've seen this phenomenon of dati -not mesorati- boys in secular schools come up in more than one place, due to lack of any or a good mekif).
Actually, it was my friend who watches her 14 year-old at the park, not me. Me, I expect to be told where he's going and when he'll be home. A call if plans change (*we're at Shlomo's house, but decided to take our bikes to the store to pick up some pizza, then we're going to Moti's place*). And on Shabbat afternoons, I usually take a stroll through the park just to see who is where, but walk by without a word.
But you have to know your kid. Some need shorter leashes. Others need space.
A teenager with parents that respect them and have taught them to know right from wrong will be able to make the right choices when the situation comes to them.
You can have your teen in a school that has kids doing drugs and being intimate and it doesn't mean that your child will be friends with those kids. If you have taught them right then they will say no.
Sad but true, Bubby! We Commonwealthers are a funny bunch - yes, I include Canada, home of Rick Moranis, John Candy, Jim Carrey, Mike Myers, Dan Aykroyd, etc., etc. If you ever have a chance to watch the sitcom "Little Mosque On The Prairie", it is wickedly funny and squeaky-clean at the same time.
Shalhevet, of course, I got the joke, the fast was getting to me so I couldn't articulate myself properly.
I'm ISRAELI not American, I grew up with Yes, Minister (how could you forget YM?) Keeping Up Appearnces, Fawlty Towers etc. etc.
And I can quote actual episodes of MP not only the movies (dead parrot or funniest joke in the world - anyone)
I miss so much when I'm out actually doing things instead of stuck on IM.
Now I'm going to search for that article on teen drinking.
It's not only in Efrat and the shul that started banning alcohol in kiddushim is not an "American" shul.
Now I'm going to search for that article on teen drinking.
It's not only in Efrat and the shul that started banning alcohol in kiddushim is not an "American" shul.
It's a bizarre idea. I read the article. I think it did a really bad job explaining the connection between alcohol at shul and teen drinking.
Davka the societies where alcohol is treated as a fact of life and not a naughty substance that's only for grown-ups often have fewer problems with heavy drinking (see France vs. America, for instance). So why do they think that in this case, they're going to have success by moving in the other direction? Are there drinking problems among adults in shul? Was kiddush getting out of hand?
Now I'm going to search for that article on teen drinking.
It's not only in Efrat and the shul that started banning alcohol in kiddushim is not an "American" shul.
It's a bizarre idea. I read the article. I think it did a really bad job explaining the connection between alcohol at shul and teen drinking.
Davka the societies where alcohol is treated as a fact of life and not a naughty substance that's only for grown-ups often have fewer problems with heavy drinking (see France vs. America, for instance). So why do they think that in this case, they're going to have success by moving in the other direction? Are there drinking problems among adults in shul? Was kiddush getting out of hand?
Actually, I agree with you.
If you read the comments it seems that the whole ban was because of a kiddush club after shul and people being insulted.
I honestly remember reading the article about DL teen drinking problem though.
France is riddled with such problems. You have whole villages degenerated by centuries of drink and wine in baby bottles. Any café will have drunkards. Circles who are more against it, have fewer problems. It is a bit like French women dont get fat, I fear... an idea I do not see happening...
Now I'm going to search for that article on teen drinking.
It's not only in Efrat and the shul that started banning alcohol in kiddushim is not an "American" shul.
It's a bizarre idea. I read the article. I think it did a really bad job explaining the connection between alcohol at shul and teen drinking.
Davka the societies where alcohol is treated as a fact of life and not a naughty substance that's only for grown-ups often have fewer problems with heavy drinking (see France vs. America, for instance). So why do they think that in this case, they're going to have success by moving in the other direction? Are there drinking problems among adults in shul? Was kiddush getting out of hand?
Actually, I agree with you.
If you read the comments it seems that the whole ban was because of a kiddush club after shul and people being insulted.
I honestly remember reading the article about DL teen drinking problem though.
I agree with the bolded. That is how I grew up- kiddush wine and a bit of liquer at shabbos meals.
And my DH belonged to that kiddush club and yes, it had to do with shul politics and not at all with kids drinking.
The average age of the kids in that shul is like 6.
Now I'm going to search for that article on teen drinking.
It's not only in Efrat and the shul that started banning alcohol in kiddushim is not an "American" shul.
It's a bizarre idea. I read the article. I think it did a really bad job explaining the connection between alcohol at shul and teen drinking.
Davka the societies where alcohol is treated as a fact of life and not a naughty substance that's only for grown-ups often have fewer problems with heavy drinking (see France vs. America, for instance). So why do they think that in this case, they're going to have success by moving in the other direction? Are there drinking problems among adults in shul? Was kiddush getting out of hand?
Actually, I agree with you.
If you read the comments it seems that the whole ban was because of a kiddush club after shul and people being insulted.
I honestly remember reading the article about DL teen drinking problem though.
I agree with the bolded. That is how I grew up- kiddush wine and a bit of liquer at shabbos meals.
And my DH belonged to that kiddush club and yes, it had to do with shul politics and not at all with kids drinking.
The average age of the kids in that shul is like 6.
France is riddled with such problems. You have whole villages degenerated by centuries of drink and wine in baby bottles. Any café will have drunkards. Circles who are more against it, have fewer problems. It is a bit like French women dont get fat, I fear... an idea I do not see happening...
Interesting. I have friends from France and they said that while they know people who drink, the whole thing of young adults frequently getting falling-down, blacking-out drunk is not a problem on nearly the same scale.
France is riddled with such problems. You have whole villages degenerated by centuries of drink and wine in baby bottles. Any café will have drunkards. Circles who are more against it, have fewer problems. It is a bit like French women dont get fat, I fear... an idea I do not see happening...
Interesting. I have friends from France and they said that while they know people who drink, the whole thing of young adults frequently getting falling-down, blacking-out drunk is not a problem on nearly the same scale.
Maybe they ran in different circles.
I wonder if it's just that times are a changing.
I hear my coworkers (non frum) talk about their evenings out, and they usually go to bars. Not necessarily to get drunk, but deffinitely to drink (ok, maybe not all of them, but the single ones).
To me it's like the TV shows where the central characters all seem to gather in bars every evening.
