Table I must say that I'm surprised because in most cities (I say "most" as maybe there is one I don't know of) there is always a tichon ironi dati or a makif dati of sorts. True, it often doesn't get as "good" a clientelle than the yeshivot tichoniyot, but unless someone is really in the boondocks then there is usually a decent ironi dati or makif dati in commuting distance. I think of places like Kfar Tavor with its growing dati leumi population where you don't have anything religious there, but you can take the bus either to Afula or to Tveria, and it's not the end of the world even to get to Haifa. Heck I traveled longer from my home in queens to manhattan daily in High school on public transport.
From Ashkelon you can get to Yavneh, to Ashdod, even to Gedera. From Dimona you can get to yerucham. From Mitzpeh ramon you can get to Arad. Yes it's a schlep but if it is important for a family to have their son in a dati framework, a halfway decent dati framework, this is really a small country and it's almost always doable.
In other words, the only families that I know of who did it are actually those who at some point realized that their kid really isn't dati. Maybe he is masorti, but going to a chiloni high school today is not only a statement, but as all social life there takes place Friday night and shabbat, and it is always done mechalel shabbos, it means not having a social life with your educational peers, or giving up shabbos. Almost without exception the kids I know who took that route gave up shabbos already in high school.
Were these kids that you know of Israeli or Olim, were they Ashkenazi or Sefaradi? Were they middle class or poor? I'm interested in knowing the background to families who wouldn't try to find a religious solution for their kids of some sort and would open them up to a social group which was completely mechalel shabbos.
Table I must say that I'm surprised because in most cities (I say "most" as maybe there is one I don't know of) there is always a tichon ironi dati or a makif dati of sorts. True, it often doesn't get as "good" a clientelle than the yeshivot tichoniyot, but unless someone is really in the boondocks then there is usually a decent ironi dati or makif dati in commuting distance. I think of places like Kfar Tavor with its growing dati leumi population where you don't have anything religious there, but you can take the bus either to Afula or to Tveria, and it's not the end of the world even to get to Haifa. Heck I traveled longer from my home in queens to manhattan daily in High school on public transport.
From Ashkelon you can get to Yavneh, to Ashdod, even to Gedera. From Dimona you can get to yerucham. From Mitzpeh ramon you can get to Arad. Yes it's a schlep but if it is important for a family to have their son in a dati framework, a halfway decent dati framework, this is really a small country and it's almost always doable.
In other words, the only families that I know of who did it are actually those who at some point realized that their kid really isn't dati. Maybe he is masorti, but going to a chiloni high school today is not only a statement, but as all social life there takes place Friday night and shabbat, and it is always done mechalel shabbos, it means not having a social life with your educational peers, or giving up shabbos. Almost without exception the kids I know who took that route gave up shabbos already in high school.
Were these kids that you know of Israeli or Olim, were they Ashkenazi or Sefaradi? Were they middle class or poor? I'm interested in knowing the background to families who wouldn't try to find a religious solution for their kids of some sort and would open them up to a social group which was completely mechalel shabbos.
Israeli, lower middle class to upper middle class, I'd say more Sefardi than Ashkenazi but that's just because the areas I'm talking about are more heavily Sefardi to start with.
The families did try to find a religious framework for their kids, but it's really not simple at all for a kid to commute to an adjacent city when there's no hasa'a. The type of kids who don't want to study till 5 are often the type of kids who also don't want to commute for an hour or an hour and a half every day each way (and that's what it often amounts to with morning traffic). Also, by high school lots of kids want local friends, they don't want to study in another city and then have no social life in their own area.
Also, it's not always that easy to register for a dati mekif in another city if you already have a (bad) dati mekif in your hometown. It's often an issue even if there is no dati mekif in your hometown, but there's a yeshiva tichonit that accepts everyone.
Finally, you'd be surprised that in some secular schools (usually more sephardi) there is a large mesorati group, so having someone who keeps Shabbat more strictly isn't a huge social obstacle. Not everyone at secular schools parties all Shabbat. Most of them just meet up at the park benches and chat.
Of course, most of the boys that I know who've done this aren't super super frum (bar one or two who were actually). They don't have an issue with socializing with girls for example, or sitting next to a girl wearing shorts. But they certainly keep Shabbat, kashrut, and the kippa on their head.
Of course this should all be in parentheses since it's REALLY off topic. Sorry guys.
interesting table. That kind of stuff was common in the 60s, maybe even in some far away places up to the early 70s but only among sefaradim, almost never ashkenazim, and mostly boys from pretty mesorati but not really dati families. Meaning the families idea of shabbos included putting on the tv on friday nite after the meal although of course they went to shul daily to minyan, kosher was kosher, and friday night meal was with all things - kiddush, motzi, zmiros...and then shabbos afternoon it was "shirim ve'sha'arim" on the radio...
I can't see this among religious ashkenazi families with religious boys but maybe it exists in the boondocks. Certainly not in any major cities because there are enough schools to go around (tel aviv and environs, gush dan in general, haifa, beersheva, yerushalayim, ashdod, ashkelon, rechovot, rishon, tveriya, etc.
Back to topic.
Barbara you wrote that at camp only counselors and junior counselors take drugs. But don't the younger campers see what is going on? They aren't dumb...is this what their parents want them to learn and see? Why then is camp better for an eight year old who knows his junior counselor is a pothead than for him to sit home, in his own four walls, driving mommy batty or sitting in front of the TV or computer but not being exposed one on one to drugs and substance users? And why do families of SAHMs think it is imperative if they can't afford camp to take zedoko for it? To expose little chaim yankel to a counselor taking drugs? Wouldn't it be better, no matter how crazy he will drive mommy, to keep him home and not expose him to this? After all, in elementary school he isn't with the age group of the junior counselors so he shouldn't be exposed to this yet there..
I saw one counselor, once, smoking something that may have not been cigs. I told my parents who reported it. And it wasn't even a frum camp. In a frum camp even cigs would be a whole drama...
I would rather keep DD home than send to a camp where people smoke (cigs).
I think the people who NEED camp are Chassidish and the like and they probably don't have the drinking and drugs problem of the MO, unless I haven't yet reached that chapter is Rabbi Dr. Twersky's book.
But some of the american posters just claimed that there is a drug problem in every single Jewish school in America practically, just a bit less among the charedim. That doesn't mean it isn't there...
Why do all Yanks bring up Monty Python whenever anyone says "Britain"? I mean, it's funny and all that, but it's so old!!!!
The thing about us Brits (which is very funny considering I've now lived half my life outside the Old Country and probably wouldn't even recognise it anymore) is that we're innately funny anyway!
Morecambe & Wise
Little & Large
The Two Ronnies
Porridge
Les Dawson
Open All Hours
Fawlty Towers (John Cleese BTW)
You can't beat them! And my mother is still addicted to Coronation Street!
In the 1980s, when I was a kid, I went to:
Three Bnei Akiva summer machanot-Dati Leumi
Two Camp Gan Israel summer camps-Lubavitch
Two Jewish Youth Study Groups summer schools (Any Brits remember them?)-United Synagogue, which in England translates to Young Israel, I suppose
Never saw any drugs at any of them. Wouldn't have known what a drug was if it fell from outer space into my lap. Saw boys and whatever going on at JYSG (not me, I hasten to add - I was on the frummer end of the spectrum by then and stopped going completely at 15 bc I decided that I was proud to be shomeret negiyah and didn't want that to change).
But no drugs and aside from the odd can of beer with the lads (I confess!) at JYSG, no drink and definitely no getting drunk.
Morecambe & Wise
Little & Large
The Two Ronnies
Porridge
Les Dawson
Open All Hours
Fawlty Towers (John Cleese BTW)
"Don't mention the war!"
Not to mention Keeping Up Appearances (my XMIL was the real Hyacinth Bucket!), Two Fat Ladies (they were wickedly funny!), and Doctor In The House. Yes, I watch a lot of PBS. Why do you ask??
Quote:
So wait, what are we afraid of leaving our 14 year old bochurs alone at home. [filth] or Drugs? I'm getting mixed up with all this choice....
I think we're afraid they'll start singing The Lumberjack Song.
3 more days of day camp. Keep going, ladies! This thread started before day camp did, and I want to see the thread outlast. I want the opportunity to post my post-kaitana experiences. So stick with it at least till Sunday night. Okay?
BTW I never saw a "drug". Once I saw some weird stuff on the sidewalk, and a sibling commented, "Someone had a paaaarty here last night." I was like, huh?
But some of the american posters just claimed that there is a drug problem in every single Jewish school in America practically, just a bit less among the charedim. That doesn't mean it isn't there...
Is it less amongst Charedim? Not sure. But yes, in America drugs affects everyone. Anyone who disagrees is really just digging their head in the sand. You can call up any organizations that deal with drugs and they'll tell you.
My 14 and 18 year olds just told me, honestly I believe, that drugs never appeared at any of their their schools. One kid said that drugs were offered to this child on the street in our mainly irreligious city.
Is it less amongst Charedim? Not sure. But yes, in America drugs affects everyone. Anyone who disagrees is really just digging their head in the sand. You can call up any organizations that deal with drugs and they'll tell you.
FTR, I have never done any drugs.
Heh.
I do think drugs affects everyone to some extent, just like careless driving and smoking and all that stuff affects us all to some extent.
I also think that, in Israel or America or anywhere else, the slide from "normal happy kid" to "drug abuser" is rarely a simple matter of being exposed to a drug by accident. There's a lot more involved than just giving a kid the theoretical option of doing drugs in his own bedroom.
So... Barbara is right that it's everywhere, friedasima is right that there are certain kinds of people who won't touch it (or even notice it) even where it does exist.
I have lost track of what any of this has to do with camp, but will proudly do my part to push this thread toward triple digits regardless.
