Thank you Pickle! Of course I know that Chabad is Lubavitch, only on this site do I call this chassidus "Lubavitch" because here in EY only the name "Chabad" is used for everything, the chassidus, the houses, the philosophy, etc. That's Hebrew versus English. But I'm not familiar with Chabad houses in the USA and can tell you that where I live there is a kaytanat chabad but it sure isn't cheap or free, nor are Chabad kindergardens, my son in laws neices went to one near them.
Also if you are talking about Chabad houses where either my children or I have visited there are no day camps because we aren't talking about places where there are real big Jewish communities or anything with large numbers of kids to run either a playgroup or a camp, think "boondocks" of the far east etc.
So this is a reality that I'm not familiar with which is why I asked.
A community creating its own playgroup for the summer in its own locale which allows anyone, including those who aren't Chabad attend (which I assume Chabad does, as long as you are willing to dress accordingly - at least that's what goes on here with Chabad gan's as my machatenister's other grandchildren are very DL and certainly not Chabad) and subsidizes those who can't afford it, seems to be a geographical community service. Which for me falls into a different category as it serves everyone and not just members of their own religious community (correct me if I am wrong). So by coming to me I could have technically sent my children there as well (correct?) and not just given zedoko to help finance it.
Again, that seems to be a somewhat different category than a group collecting for itself from those outside that community but only providing services to members of their own community (as in Shalhevet's post about the subject).
Back to topic.
The dog - My son in law is enamoured with the dog. That's my real problem with him, all the others are secondary. And as I have severe asthma and allergies I can't be around the dog, my daughter is stuck, if it were up to her she would send the dog, nice and friendly as she is, to outer mongolia on a one way ticket. But she knows that her husband's real blind spot is the dog. If he had to pick between her and the dog it would be really hard for him, he's THAT blind about the dog. He certainly had to pick once between me and the dog and he picked the dog, hence I don't really go to their house for more than a swoop to take out my grandson to come to us etc...davka my husband can spend time there as b"h he has no allergies. My daughter is wonderful, if I come she immediately puts the dog in her bedroom and closes the door, but there is hair all over the place and if my son in law comes in for some reason he will refuse to put the dog in the other room and all hell breaks out. Yes a true blind spot coming from whomever knows where because it doesn't have to do with ME or anyone else, I realized that, it's the DOG. She sits with them at the table, including on a chair of her own at the shabbos table. No I don't go there for shabbos I can't stand to see it, besides the allergies, and he can't understand that there are places where you just aren't allowed to take dogs.
Get this - he has been known in the past to put on dark sunglasses and pretend he is bind calling the dog his seeing eye dog in order to go places with her that dogs aren't allowed. My husband has given up. As he said, she choose him, she has to live with him, she can deal with his mishegasin. We work around it. That isn't to say that he doesn't have other wonderful qualities and I'm not kidding. He's a great father, very strong and will protect my daughter from anything, a good provider and he puts his time and his money where his mouth is, he's patriotic, good to his mother, and adores my daughter and grandson so that's wonderful..
Just the dog....
Oh well...
At least my son married a girl who doesn't want a dog. I asked her straight out. And now that the baby is born she is loosening up with the criticism business (no longer crying at every suggestion), maybe because she started asking lots of questions and advice about the baby.
So there is hope for everyone. Now just maybe the dog will run away...but no such luck so far.
MAYBE WE SHOULD SEND THE DOG TO CAMP!
Hey, anyone want to support us for a one way ticket to upper mongolia for renegade hyperactive dogs. You will have to pay to start a camp there, but hey, it's real zedoko...it will get me to be able to spend time in my daughter's house and clean it up for her if there is no dog...and she could use a clean house, everyone should have one, isn't that what you are saying?
So here I'm starting the ball rolling. Anyone wanting to donate to the Freidasima let's send the dog to camp on a one way ticket ouf of the country please PM me and include your name and those of your loved ones and I will go to the kever of the Rambam next time I'm up north and daven for your health and sanity and mine as well!!!
MamaDear how many homes do you know of, even those where the kids are sent out to camp and school, that the house is sparkling, the dishes are done and a good, warm dinner is on the table every night? The truth.....?????
Uhhhh I never said the word SPARKLING. major difference between sparkling and war-zone. and you might find it extremely hard to believe, but where I live, 90% of SAHMs have a warm dinner on the stove/in the oven by the time the kids come home from school. Or, it's at least 70% ready. it's DEFINITELY ready by the time the husband comes home from work. YES.
Crock pots are not just for Shabbat. Put something up in the morning and be with the kids all day...you'll still have a hot dinner on the table by the time the husband comes home from work. Or choose a meal that the kids can help you prepare.
WHOA frida. I cant believe you did thisw again1!!... First describing your daughter's 'calim' life and then finally telling us she's a working mom. apples and cucumbers!!!! A working mother isnt expected to have that warm dinner, cleaned up house etc like a SAHM does. A SAHM doesnt stay home to entertain her kids all day. A SAHM doesnt work, so htat her home runs like a home and not a pig-sty. Instead of having a paid job outside the home and having her kids away for the bulk of the day anyway, her thankless, unpaid job is the free maid, cook, washer woman and babysitter of the younger set. Just like your daugher would not have her older kids wswarming around her as she does her job, so does the SAHM need her space to do her JOB during the day, and can find all the time in the world for her wonderful kids after 3, the same time your daughter comes home from work. So dont sit here and tell us how amazing your daughter is for devoting all of her time to her kid while her home just runs away. she doesnt. she isnt home during the day, the same time frame that the school aged kids go to school. I am tired of yoru bait and switch tactics here.
However my daughter was a SAHM for the first six months after her son was born and it was exactly the same. The house was trashed, meals weren't made but she sure nursed non stop, played with him non stop, talked and sang to him, played opera for him, did mommy-baby exercises with him, and that was when her husband was an intern and he was never ever ever home. She used to take the baby to the hospital as soon as he was three months old to sit and wait for "daddy" to see his son and they would get a falafel together and eat it there in emergency so that he could see his son while he (the husband) was awake because when he would get home he would be too tired to play with him, this way they chapped in ten minutes of awake time in between emergencies.
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SNORT!!! comapring a mom of a six month odl to a mom of active, older childre, each of which have requests all day, disagree on where to go, etc. a six month old naps, plays on their own, you can still do your housework and errands with one six month old. I did that too, until my oldest was 3!!! I did nothing but include him in every single thing I was doing all day! realities change when there are several children, th3 older they get the more demanding they get. my six year old is often harder to keep busy/out of trouble than my special needs 3 yr old!
Mama Bear, I like your analogy much. So I am going ot repeat it:
JUST AS A WORKING MOTHER NEEDS HER KIDS OUT OF THE WAY DURING WORKING HOURS SO THAT SHE CAN DO HER JOB AS IS EXPECTED OF HER, A STAY-AT-HOME NEEDS HER KIDS OUT OF THE WAY IN THE HOURS SHE IS CLEANING/COOKING/LAUNDRYING/SHOPPING/ERRANDS RUNNING SO SHE CAN BE THE SAHM SHE IS EXPECTED TO BE.
Kitov, if the above is correct, then the working mother's contention that the SAHM is nothing but a sorry excuse for staying home is probably spot-on.
The term SAHM came to replace "housewife", to show the value of education/chinuch of one's own children, as opposed to a women simply existing as unpaid labor in the home.
If, as you say, the kids are in the way of a SAHM, then I think it's sad.
Don't you think working mothers have to get it all done as well, AFTER they put in a day's work at the office? For SURE, if what you write is true, they will be clueless as to what a "SAHM" does all day if her kids are out. After all, she's going to be doing the same exact things come evening/night.
I'm a former SAHM, was home for 19 years straight, and I'm shocked.
Kitov, if the above is correct, then the working mother's contention that the SAHM is nothing but a sorry excuse for staying home is probably spot-on.
The term SAHM came to replace "housewife", to show the value of education/chinuch of one's own children, as opposed to a women simply existing as unpaid labor in the home.
If, as you say, the kids are in the way of a SAHM, then I think it's sad.
Don't you think working mothers have to get it all done as well, AFTER they put in a day's work at the office? For SURE, if what you write is true, they will be clueless as to what a "SAHM" does all day if her kids are out. After all, she's going to be doing the same exact things come evening/night.
I'm a former SAHM, was home for 19 years straight, and I'm shocked.
You seem to miss the point.
A working mother an get away with a less-than-perfect home, kids at young age in day care, in need of breaks, because after all, she has a high stress life and everyone seems to be alright with htat.
The SAHM, on the other hand, is considered "lucky", with tons of time on her hands to keep a perfect running home and life, so why can't her kids be around all day PLUS entertain them?
I'm CH'V in no way saying kids are in anyone's way, but a working mother can somehow get away with putting her infants and toddlers for 8 hrs a day in daycare, while SAHM are expected to keep their homes afloat WHILE offering the best mommy day camp, simultaneously that is.
Kitov, I don't agree. I have nothing to compare SAHMs to here in Israel, since it barely, if at all, exists in my circles but in the U.S.: many many people lived in a messy dirty house (I have high standards but not THAT high and these homes were abysmally kept). Across the board, more or less. If anything, the homes of working mothers were cleaner and neater since (a) they generally had cleaning help and (b) no one was around all day to keep messing it up.
But since messy and dirty were totally acceptable states for many homes in the U.S., it didn't matter whether the mother was a SAHM or not. Not many women truly enjoy cleaning, regardless of whether they are home or not.
Now that most of the Israeli women around me work, I can see the clean/neat standards have slipped from what they used to be. Israelis still like a nice, clean, neat house and are willing to work for it but they simply no longer have the time/koach.
Tamiri, so are you agreeing that LESS is expected from a working mom and MORE from a SAHM?
I'm saying that in terms of keeping the house up, I didn't see much difference. Just that the working mothers were more shmattas. Unless they could afford a lot of help. See other thread. However, to me a SAHM means the kids or at least one kid, are with her most of the time. If not, a stay at home without kids mom has it the best.
Tamiri, so are you agreeing that LESS is expected from a working mom and MORE from a SAHM?
I'm saying that in terms of keeping the house up, I didn't see much difference. Just that the working mothers were more shmattas. Unless they could afford a lot of help. See other thread. However, to me a SAHM means the kids or at least one kid, are with her most of the time. If not, a stay at home without kids mom has it the best.
I would say, a SAHM, with her underage kids home, and the rest of the kids out in a good setting for a couple of hours a day, under standard circumstances, has a good deal.
Only standard circumstances aren't always so standard, YKWIM.
Tamiri, so are you agreeing that LESS is expected from a working mom and MORE from a SAHM?
I'm saying that in terms of keeping the house up, I didn't see much difference. Just that the working mothers were more shmattas. Unless they could afford a lot of help. See other thread. However, to me a SAHM means the kids or at least one kid, are with her most of the time. If not, a stay at home without kids mom has it the best.
btw.... I am in NO WAY referring to small, young children. I didnt send either of my kids before age 3 even though they were walking hurricanes. The SAHM is there for her infant and her toddler. unlike her working counterpart, she is home with her infant and toddler all day and their bond is cemented during those crucial formative years. But at a certain age when a child cannot entertain themselves alone anymore and need structure, discipline,a nd socialization, the child needs to be out from underfoot so the mother can 1. take care of the next child and 2. keep the home standing up. A SAHM with zero kids at home??? She's super lucky. And she's just waiting to get pregnant, that's all....
Tamiri, so are you agreeing that LESS is expected from a working mom and MORE from a SAHM?
I'm saying that in terms of keeping the house up, I didn't see much difference. Just that the working mothers were more shmattas. Unless they could afford a lot of help. See other thread. However, to me a SAHM means the kids or at least one kid, are with her most of the time. If not, a stay at home without kids mom has it the best.
btw.... I am in NO WAY referring to small, young children. I didnt send either of my kids before age 3 even though they were walking hurricanes. The SAHM is there for her infant and her toddler. unlike her working counterpart, she is home with her infant and toddler all day and their bond is cemented during those crucial formative years. But at a certain age when a child cannot entertain themselves alone anymore and need structure, discipline,a nd socialization, the child needs to be out from underfoot so the mother can 1. take care of the next child and 2. keep the home standing up. A SAHM with zero kids at home??? She's super lucky. And she's just waiting to get pregnant, that's all....
I actually got bored when everyone was out of the house 7:30-1:30 earliest and felt that getting a job would be a good thing, and it was! Part-time, that is. I still consider myself a housewife, albeit one with a job.
When did this sense of entitlement come about? Perhaps right around when chosson presents and kalla jewels which break the bank came into vogue? Or maybe around the time young couples "couldn't" get married without the parents paying for a lavish wedding and home furnishings? Are any of the "camp is a right and a necessity even for SAHMs without money" people really reading what they are writing?
Since when is it okay for (healthy) people who have children decide "I can't handle it", "someone give me tzedaka so I don't have to spend a summer entertaining my children"?
Since when is "everyone is doing it" an excuse for those who can't afford it and are home to take of their children to beg for tzedaka so their kids can go to camp?
Since when is it not okay for children to have less financial resources to learn the (hard) facts of life?
Since when is the summer an excuse for a struggling mother to rely on take out, even if she can't afford it?
I read the excuse of "a weak generation" here over and over. And over again. Is that the only way to explain such behavior? That gives us permission to throw money at anything that gives us the slightest bit of stress, even if it means taking a hand-out for that? What kind of people choose to live that way? This is certainly NOT the Jewish way or mentality.
Camp is in place for children to be entertained during the summer. It solves a lot of "what shall I do all summer with the kids" problems for many parents, particularly those who work. Camp has ALWAYS been there. But "everyone" going hasn't. If you could afford it: great. If you were a working parent, it was a must. But for a whole bunch of kids with HEALTHY SAHMs to have a "need" to go to camp, or for their mother not to be able to figure out what to do with them? What is the message here?
We've gone off on so many tangentially related issues in this thread that I decided to go back and read not only the original post, but also the thread that inspired it.
I read all seven pages of the thread discussing what to do about camp if you don't have the money.
Here's the breakdown:
* 1 -- yes, one -- poster said that camp is a "right" of every child if that is the norm in the community.
* 1 poster who said she thinks camp is extremely important and that parents should do their utmost to send children, but that she wouldn't suggest collecting tzeddakah for it if they truly don't have the money.
* Approximately 6 posters (there was some overlap) said that they could imagine circumstances where camp might be a necessity for an individual child or family.
* Approximately 4 posters (complete overlap) said that their was a communal expectation of camp, though they did not necessarily agree with this expectation.
The rest of the 7 pages were taken up with posters in the following three categories:
* Posters who offered suggestions for financing camp or camp alternatives.
* Posters who used personal anecdotes from their childhood or parenting as evidence that camp is not a necessity.
* Posters who expressed their viewpoint that camp is always a luxury, no matter what.
My Conclusion
There is no real argument here. There was only one poster in the original thread who expressed anything that could be defined as "entitlement." So how did it turn into 67 pages of name-calling, bashing, and general ill-will?
I believe some imamothers have an agenda. For whatever reason, they are extremely sensitive to even the slightest suggestion that someone is unwilling to pull her own weight. Every financial-related issue is somehow evidence of the widespread financial irresponsibility that exists among the Torah-observant. Every single kvetch brings an accusation of "entitlement." Apparently they and they alone are balancing work and family, paying their bills, and attempting to save money. They and they alone are trying to live within their means and resist the siren call of consumerism. They and they alone serve as beacons of self-sufficiency and responsibility.
Well, hogwash! That's what most of us are doing.
If this is an Israeli chareidi versus dati leumi feud, go argue it out in the "Life in Israel" forum. Machlokes is one Israeli export I'd prefer not to purchase.
If you want to discuss legitimate social issues and concerns, do so in a detached manner -- without attacking the individuals who live with societal norms that, however flawed, are real.
If you want to encourage women to find solutions to their problems -- both by changing their thinking and/or taking action -- then don't start by insulting them. Use gentle suggestion and humor. BTW, I was surprised in re-reading the original thread how many posters did precisely this! They offered ideas and creative suggestions without condemning anyone.
One single poster: that was the entire seething mass of imamothers who believe that camp is an entitlement. Anyone who is sickened because a single poster believes camp is an entitlement needs to make an appointment with a gastroenterologist -- pronto!
I actually got bored when everyone was out of the house 7:30-1:30 earliest and felt that getting a job would be a good thing, and it was! Part-time, that is. I still consider myself a housewife, albeit one with a job.
Great, that means you researched your inner peace, and hopefully found what works best for you.
For some of us, we got to the conclusion that SAHM, with our infants and toddlers, and having the rest go to a good program for a couple of hours while we run our homes, our ultimate.
One single poster: that was the entire seething mass of imamothers who believe that camp is an entitlement. Anyone who is sickened because a single poster believes camp is an entitlement needs to make an appointment with a gastroenterologist -- pronto!
Great post Fox!
But please don't be SO specific, or else we will ALL feel that THAT ONE POSTER meant us!!!!lol
