Of course there is an option but I'm talking about someone who isn't frum and CHOOSES to start living a frum lifestyle. That's very different. When you make the choice to do X you take on the obligations of X and you had better figure out if you can afford to do X before you make choices, if you have the strength to do X before you start, and not to rely on the fact that "I will do X and if I don't have the strength or the money there will always be someone else to foot the bill".
In my book that's hefkerut, irresponsibility and childish.
If something is so important to someone, then let them figure out how to do it without making others pay for their choice.
So our kollel should start advising community members that they better be sure they can afford doing teshuva?
And I'm not underestimating the difficulties. There's a heat advisory in NYC today. I wouldn't suggest a 2-hour bike ride, or a basketball tournament. Then again, unless you're sending your kids to overnight camp, the day camps are facing the same heat issues. I saw a lot of kids in the park at 7:30 or 8, working off energy before it got too hot out.
Uhhhh what??? ever heard of air conditioning??? the kids are in large, spacious, cool, airy, delicious rooms. Theyre playing games, eating lunch, davening, learning, making arts n crafts, GOING TO THE POOL IN THE SCHOOLYARD(which they would not have at home!!! 1/2 of the homes do not have porches!), and so forth. what heat issues???
Camp is indoors? In air conditioned spaces?
I thought that the whole argument in favor of sending kids to camp was so that they could spend time outdoors, running around and participating in activities. Most camps have indoor spaces, for use in the rain. But camp that's primarily indoors?
I sent my DS to a sports-themed day camp one summer, and although the camp was based in a school, they spent their time outside playing sports whenever it wasn't raining. He was so tired at the end of the day from the activity and the heat that he was like a wrung-out dishrag on the bus home. He had a blast that summer - best summer camp experience he had!
NYC opens air-conditioned facilities on days like today, for those who think air conditioning is a luxury.
The gov't also offers free meals for kids up to 18 years old for underprivileged families. Um, no, I'm not encouraging anyone I know to take advantage- choices and all. I know keeping kosher is a choice and expensive but some things in life aren't to be compromised on.
They open those facilities to ensure that people who are vulnerable (like the elderly) have a cool place to go.
Really, this thread is like complaining kosher food is expensive because you want to serve lamb and brisket, instead of rice and beans.
So how come we survived without a/c at city day camp (one of those cheepie ones, in t his case Jamaica Jewish Center which took kids from all over, white, black, Jewish and not) in the 1960s? You are going to tell me it wasn't hot? So we went out to the park otherwise we were indoors singing songs if it was too hot to play ball....
Actually Isramom I'm not advocating cholilo not being frum, but I am saying there is a price and people have to be aware of it, and be willing to pay that price, and there is a financial price as well, that's all.
Gryp, I didn't say that anyone should send their kids to the city programs, I'm saying that there are other solutions for SAHMs which include courses on time management, on setting priorities in their particular situations and the like. That's a long term solution from which they can learn something, not a bandaid which only brings about the need for more bandaids in the years to come.
Of course there is an option but I'm talking about someone who isn't frum and CHOOSES to start living a frum lifestyle. That's very different. When you make the choice to do X you take on the obligations of X and you had better figure out if you can afford to do X before you make choices, if you have the strength to do X before you start, and not to rely on the fact that "I will do X and if I don't have the strength or the money there will always be someone else to foot the bill".
In my book that's hefkerut, irresponsibility and childish.
If something is so important to someone, then let them figure out how to do it without making others pay for their choice.
So our kollel should start advising community members that they better be sure they can afford doing teshuva?
When I asked a rav a bc shaila, and this rav was head of our school's vaad hachinuch, was he derelict innot asking me about our finances?
NYC opens air-conditioned facilities on days like today, for those who think air conditioning is a luxury.
The gov't also offers free meals for kids up to 18 years old for underprivileged families. Um, no, I'm not encouraging anyone I know to take advantage- choices and all. I know keeping kosher is a choice and expensive but some things in life aren't to be compromised on.
They open those facilities to ensure that people who are vulnerable (like the elderly) have a cool place to go.
Really, this thread is like complaining kosher food is expensive because you want to serve lamb and brisket, instead of rice and beans.
The facilities are opened in heat emergencies, like today. They're not open routinely. However, people who are mobile do go to movies, malls, stores and libraries where there is a/c on hot summer days.
I thought that the whole argument in favor of sending kids to camp was so that they could spend time outdoors, running around and participating in activities. Most camps have indoor spaces, for use in the rain. But camp that's primarily indoors?
There's day camp, and there's (sleep away) camp.
The difference?
Day camp is local, kids coming home every day. Some serve breakfast and lunch, some only lunch. All provide swimming, some in-ground pools, some kiddie pools. All provide entertainment. Some all day fun, others, like a cheder-day camp, is mostly learning and then swimming and some trips. Most are indoors in school buildings, only the out-of-the-city ones are in backyards.
Okay, Page 55. Let's see all the ideas we've come up with:
A) Move to Israel.
B) Have only one or two children.
C) Earn a lot of money.
D) Take a time management course.
E) Keep kids occupied with household chores, ie. ripping toilet paper or scrubbing the bathtub.
Anything I missed?
Actually, I've listed many, many ideas to have fun and occupy kids during the day, including sprinklers, kites, dress up/pretend play, building toys, cooking, science experiments, painting, sidewalk chalk, yadda yadda yadda. But you don't want to hear that. All you want to do is gape and express shock at the idea that a mother who chooses to stay at home with her kids might actually stay home with her kids during the summer, claiming that it is impossible for her to do so. And to express even more shock at the notion that a parent who cannot afford summer camp, but would like her children to attend, might consider some of the low-cost offerings of municipalities, such as those offered by the NYC Parks Department. I'm still trying to figure out what is so horrific about the idea that your (the universal your) child might jump rope or play basketball with a non-Jew, but I just plain old don't get it.
But I have changed my mind on one thing. If a parent is so un-creative that she cannot think of anything for her children to do during the summer other than to than to clean the house. If she is so overwhelmed by day-to-day life that the mere thought of parenting for more than a few hours at a time renders her unable to function. Then it may be a necessity for her children to attend camp. I just disagree that such a woman is the average, or even a common, SAHM.
If someone is becoming frum, so that's not a choice for them any more than for an FFB. Once you believe that mitzvot are commandments you don't say "gosh I dunno, can I afford to do this?" more than anyone else.
I do think that paying for your own frum needs (tefillin, shiurim, etc) is a sign of being serious about the whole thing. But sometimes even the most serious people honestly can't afford it.
I thought that the whole argument in favor of sending kids to camp was so that they could spend time outdoors, running around and participating in activities. Most camps have indoor spaces, for use in the rain. But camp that's primarily indoors?
There's day camp, and there's (sleep away) camp.
The difference?
Day camp is local, kids coming home every day. Some serve breakfast and lunch, some only lunch. All provide swimming, some in-ground pools, some kiddie pools. All provide entertainment. Some all day fun, others, like a cheder-day camp, is mostly learning and then swimming and some trips. Most are indoors in school buildings, only the out-of-the-city ones are in backyards.
Sleep away offers the full blown experience.
I'm talking about NY.
I live in NY.
I've heard of specialty camps, like chess camp, robot camp, challenge camp, etc where there is a not insubstantial time spent indoors in a particular activity. But when the term *camp* is generally used, it means a place where kids engage in outdoor play and activity, That can be in a park, backyard, or campground.
IMNSHO, what MB described, and she described it another time as well, is more like year-round school, with a little bit of play mixed in because its summer.
The way I was brought up was that even if someone could technically survive without something....but it would be painful, then it is a chessed and a tzeddakah to help them.
For example:
1. If someone's missing teeth and is walking around with gaping holes in their mouths because they can't afford to fix it, in my book it is a worthy mitzvah to help that person pay for it.
2. If someone has a sheital that looks worse than a mop and their daughter is getting married it is a mitzvah to subsidize or pay for a wig for that person.
3. If someone can't afford day camp and their kids are dancing up to their neck for two months straight...it is a mitzvah to help pay for it.
4. If someone is struggling to cope with a house full of young kids it is a mitzvah to help them clean their homes for shabbos or to pay someone to.
You get my point. We are about helping people who need help. Whether they are struggling with young kids, financial difficulties, emotional help whatever....the point is not whether I can manage without these things, the point is am I in a position to help, and if I am, then it is with great pleasure.
I don't think anyone would disagree with the first sentence.
What we're arguing over in this very long thread isn't whether suffering people should be helped. It's other things - where to draw the line on "painful" or "suffering," for one. Sure, someone with broken teeth should get help, but what about someone who can't afford laser eye surgery and so is forced to keep wearing glasses? We all have some degree of pain in our lives, what's "help!" level and what's just normal "life is hard" level? (I know people keep saying "well everyone is different" but I think that's a cop-out to some extent. Everyone is different, but you still can't reasonably expect that the community protect its sensitive members from the fact that life is hard, even its more sensitive members).
Although a more important difference between the points that tzedaka-for-camp-in-normal-situations opponents are bringing up and your points is that the opponents are talking primarily about recipients' obligations.
Treating the two as totally separate is hardly new. Chazal said a lot about the virtue of self-sufficiency, making due with little, sacrifice for a Torah lifestyle, etc, and they also said a lot about the virtue of giving.
IOW, just because one person is right in saying "if person B sees that person A isn't coping with all her children, it would be a mitzva to help her out," doesn't mean the other isn't also right in saying, "If person A won't be able to cope with her home situation without help, she should find a way to change things so she can manage."
"Change things" doesn't always mean changing family size, btw. It could mean changing the financial situation, changing location, or changing expectations (for instance, on days when my dh comes home to both a clean house and a cooked dinner, he's very impressed (who am I kidding, he never comes home to a clean house. Make that a mostly clean living room.)).
IMNSHO, what MB described, and she described it another time as well, is more like year-round school, with a little bit of play mixed in because its summer.
There are a lot of frum schools with that kind of "camp." And it does make it very confusing when discussing camp.
Mama Bear's not the only one who's described something like that, I think a couple other posters mentioned that "camp" in their area is led by the same rebbes who teach in school, and with the same kids participating.
Okay, Page 55. Let's see all the ideas we've come up with:
A) Move to Israel.
B) Have only one or two children.
C) Earn a lot of money.
D) Take a time management course.
E) Keep kids occupied with household chores, ie. ripping toilet paper or scrubbing the bathtub.
Anything I missed?
Actually, I've listed many, many ideas to have fun and occupy kids during the day, including sprinklers, kites, dress up/pretend play, building toys, cooking, science experiments, painting, sidewalk chalk, yadda yadda yadda. But you don't want to hear that. All you want to do is gape and express shock at the idea that a mother who chooses to stay at home with her kids might actually stay home with her kids during the summer, claiming that it is impossible for her to do so. And to express even more shock at the notion that a parent who cannot afford summer camp, but would like her children to attend, might consider some of the low-cost offerings of municipalities, such as those offered by the NYC Parks Department. I'm still trying to figure out what is so horrific about the idea that your (the universal your) child might jump rope or play basketball with a non-Jew, but I just plain old don't get it.
But I have changed my mind on one thing. If a parent is so un-creative that she cannot think of anything for her children to do during the summer other than to than to clean the house. If she is so overwhelmed by day-to-day life that the mere thought of parenting for more than a few hours at a time renders her unable to function. Then it may be a necessity for her children to attend camp. I just disagree that such a woman is the average, or even a common, SAHM.
You're right, Barbara, you did post a list of things kids can occupy their time with. I'm sorry I forgot that post in this long thread.
IMNSHO, what MB described, and she described it another time as well, is more like year-round school, with a little bit of play mixed in because its summer.
There are a lot of frum schools with that kind of "camp." And it does make it very confusing when discussing camp.
Mama Bear's not the only one who's described something like that, I think a couple other posters mentioned that "camp" in their area is led by the same rebbes who teach in school, and with the same kids participating.
Now that this thread has hit 55 pages, I thought I would jump in. (50 pages is my minimum)
I just wanted to hear from those that seem to be implying that kids are at risk for going OTD if they don't go to camp. Are these already at-risk kids? Because I can't imagine that one summer at home is going to turn a kid if he's not already at risk. What happened to the chinuch from the rest of the year? What is going to happen over the summer that will wipe out years of learning and home chinuch as well?
Shockingly enough, I barely ever went to camp as a kid. I spent two summers in non-Jewish (!) day camp run by private schools in the area. I participated in all the activities, everyone brought their own lunches, and on rare occasions there was a bbq or something, we brought our own. There were a couple of other frum kids there, and I davened at home before leaving, etc.
Other summers I took classes at the local public (!!!) school, an art class, touch-typing, chemistry. I even made some friends, expanded my mind and world view and... didn't go off the derech. Imagine that.
