Usually people prefer their 4 yr old doesn't go on trips far away with a large group anyway.
By me, people pay more expensive camps to ensure the kids will go to Eurodisney type places as much as possible... those who can't, well, the richer parents may see it as "too bad for these kids".
Usually people prefer their 4 yr old doesn't go on trips far away with a large group anyway.
By me, people pay more expensive camps to ensure the kids will go to Eurodisney type places as much as possible... those who can't, well, the richer parents may see it as "too bad for these kids".
Not in Israel, at least what I've seen. Not that I've hung around the very super rich, but the regular middle-class and upper middle class seem to prefer the security of knowing their little kids are at the local gan doing arts and crafts and playing in the kiddie pool, rather than boarding buses to cross the country.
In fact, at amusement parks I don't think I've ever seen a group of 5 or even 6 year olds with a camp madrich. You often see groups of kids aged 7 and up, but not younger than that.
I remember learning somewhere(maybe someone can clarify) that the correct response in Yiddishkeit is to do without for OURSELVES but not to expect the same level from OTHERS. For example,we can do without a cleaning lady if we cannot afford it but should understand that others require it and should have it. Sorry if this point has already been mentioned- this is a mighty long thread!
I remember learning somewhere(maybe someone can clarify) that the correct response in Yiddishkeit is to do without for OURSELVES but not to expect the same level from OTHERS. For example,we can do without a cleaning lady if we cannot afford it but should understand that others require it and should have it. Sorry if this point has already been mentioned- this is a mighty long thread!
So I should give tzeddeka so others can have a cleaning lady even if I manage without one? Or give tzeddeka for camp even if I've decided to scrimp and save on the cheshbon of my own kids?
I remember learning somewhere(maybe someone can clarify) that the correct response in Yiddishkeit is to do without for OURSELVES but not to expect the same level from OTHERS. For example,we can do without a cleaning lady if we cannot afford it but should understand that others require it and should have it. Sorry if this point has already been mentioned- this is a mighty long thread!
What you say is too general. You are saying that I should do without a cleaning lady myself but I should fund it for EVERY other Jewish woman in the world if I could. That is ridiculous.
We are supposed to use our seichel when giving tzedaka (and our compassion). That might mean assuming we don't always know all the facts - so when someone comes to us and says she has been feeling sick for a month and she is pregnant and her husband works long hours and could we help her pay for a cleaning lady, we don't ask her to bring us a doctor's letter and proof of her dh's hours at work (assuming we know her to be truthful) or tell her we don't have a cleaning lady. But if someone healthy with one child who is a SAHM comes and whines that she should have a cl because everyone does - well, that's when we should use our seichel.
Usually people prefer their 4 yr old doesn't go on trips far away with a large group anyway.
By me, people pay more expensive camps to ensure the kids will go to Eurodisney type places as much as possible... those who can't, well, the richer parents may see it as "too bad for these kids".
Not in Israel, at least what I've seen. Not that I've hung around the very super rich, but the regular middle-class and upper middle class seem to prefer the security of knowing their little kids are at the local gan doing arts and crafts and playing in the kiddie pool, rather than boarding buses to cross the country.
I didn't mean very super rich
I meant comfy middle class and up, or something like that. Some lower middle class are also ready to make efforts so that the kids go into the "Eurodisney going" gan.
DD went to the parks last year (at 3) already.
As for kiddie pool, from what I see it is hard to organize, as they don't necessarily have one, so they need to find frum neighbours have one and allowing the kids to come - and if they have one they need to make separate hours for boys and girls hence twice more morot...
Usually people prefer their 4 yr old doesn't go on trips far away with a large group anyway.
By me, people pay more expensive camps to ensure the kids will go to Eurodisney type places as much as possible... those who can't, well, the richer parents may see it as "too bad for these kids".
Not in Israel, at least what I've seen. Not that I've hung around the very super rich, but the regular middle-class and upper middle class seem to prefer the security of knowing their little kids are at the local gan doing arts and crafts and playing in the kiddie pool, rather than boarding buses to cross the country.
I didn't mean very super rich
I meant comfy middle class and up, or something like that. Some lower middle class are also ready to make efforts so that the kids go into the "Eurodisney going" gan.
DD went to the parks last year (at 3) already.
As for kiddie pool, from what I see it is hard to organize, as they don't necessarily have one, so they need to find frum neighbours have one and allowing the kids to come - and if they have one they need to make separate hours for boys and girls hence twice more morot...
By kiddie pool I meant the small ones that hold 3 kids. The ones you can fit in a car. My kids have been to ganim where they ask the parents to lend kiddie pools for a few days. Although come to think of it, I haven't seen it done the last few years. I think the education ministry banned it due to health concerns (lots of kids in water without chlorine - recipe for viruses).
I'm not quite sure who you were including in your 'older women' but many of us still have little children of our own.
Having followed all of the thread, I see women from all different 'camps' agreeing (and this is the point of the thread) that it is not a necessity for every child to go to an organized summer program. There are younger and older posters, in EY and America, those who believe in large families and those who don't who just don't even get why every mother "has" to send her children away.
I can tell you that I know dozens, or probably hundreds, of kolel and working families near me some of whom send (and some don't) some or all of their dds to 'kaytana' for 2 or 3 weeks - till 1pm each day (one or two days are trips when they come home later). And the rest of the summer their children (boys up to 3 and girls of all ages) are at home. The mothers, yes, many of whom have five children under 8 (yes, I did too) take their children to a park most days. The children play at home, with each other (davka I understand much more the need for 'onlies' to go to camp, rather than those with siblings ready to play with), or invite/go to friends.
These women aren't on imamother because most don't have a computer (yup, no DVDs to stick their child in front of when they need a break) and certainly not internet. Their children are sweet, clean, well-cared for, and educated.
Many of these women work in chinuch and the summer is their only break.
Before imamother I never heard anyone whine that their children 'have to' go to kaytana (we're talking the half day kind) but they can't afford it. Either they send or they don't. And even those who send look after their children 24/7 for 6 out of the nine weeks of chofesh, and 19/7 the other 3.
They are of all ages - in their twenties, thirties and forties. Some work and some are SAHMs. Some have very large families and most have children who are closely spaced.
I have no idea why you have made this a younger vs. older women crusade here. I would say it's an attitude crusade.
Your attitude towards older women's experience also shows great immaturity (I can't believe I'm writing this to you, I never thought of you like this before). I can tell you when I was in my twenties I also thought I knew it all - it is simply called immaturity and gaiva. As I've got older you realize that you learn a lot from experience, and not only that, but I see how older women than me can give me advice and I trust them (those whose hashkafa I trust) to give me good advice.
I was just talking to my dh a day or two ago about a new situation that will arise in our house soon, and I said to my dh I will ask someone with experience on the issue because why do I have to rediscover America?
You don't have to take anyone's advice here as a package deal. But you would be wise - if you and your friends are so sure it is impossible to keep children in their own home with their own mother for a few weeks of the year - to read what mothers both old and young who have BTDT have to say about how they did that. And then choose what could be useful to you. Instead of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Children's natures haven't changed. Maybe it's the mother's expectations which have.
Usually people prefer their 4 yr old doesn't go on trips far away with a large group anyway.
By me, people pay more expensive camps to ensure the kids will go to Eurodisney type places as much as possible... those who can't, well, the richer parents may see it as "too bad for these kids".
Not in Israel, at least what I've seen. Not that I've hung around the very super rich, but the regular middle-class and upper middle class seem to prefer the security of knowing their little kids are at the local gan doing arts and crafts and playing in the kiddie pool, rather than boarding buses to cross the country.
I didn't mean very super rich
I meant comfy middle class and up, or something like that. Some lower middle class are also ready to make efforts so that the kids go into the "Eurodisney going" gan.
DD went to the parks last year (at 3) already.
As for kiddie pool, from what I see it is hard to organize, as they don't necessarily have one, so they need to find frum neighbours have one and allowing the kids to come - and if they have one they need to make separate hours for boys and girls hence twice more morot...
By kiddie pool I meant the small ones that hold 3 kids. The ones you can fit in a car. My kids have been to ganim where they ask the parents to lend kiddie pools for a few days. Although come to think of it, I haven't seen it done the last few years. I think the education ministry banned it due to health concerns (lots of kids in water without chlorine - recipe for viruses).
When I was two my parents were asked to bring a gigit - a large laundry basket for me to bathe in gan. But that was almost 30 years ago.
Today, the main problem is kids drowning. In my kids' gan they have absolutely NO water activities because of saftely issues.
So you are confirming what I have felt for a long time. Imamother is TROUBLE!!! I am trying to wean myself. Certainly my house would be cleaner, my kids too and my mind would be cleaner and less cluttered,
I have seen kiddie pools in non Jewish gans, I think also in more modern ones. I agree it's not SO clean, and I'm not so much into water stuff because I am paranoid.
Last year DD was in pre-gan (18 months to under 3) and they had a kiddie pool day once (mixed), I didn't send her. Also as she was 3 (and not 18 or 24) I wasn't so into the mixed idea, I was afraid it would be inconsistent with her being tznius all the other days (inconsistent for her chinuch).
I can tell you that I know dozens, or probably hundreds, of kolel and working families near me some of whom send (and some don't) some or all of their dds to 'kaytana' for 2 or 3 weeks - till 1pm each day (one or two days are trips when they come home later). And the rest of the summer their children (boys up to 3 and girls of all ages) are at home. The mothers, yes, many of whom have five children under 8 (yes, I did too) take their children to a park most days. The children play at home, with each other (davka I understand much more the need for 'onlies' to go to camp, rather than those with siblings ready to play with), or invite/go to friends.
The difference, Shalhevet, is that these mothers (at least most of them) entered this scenario with their eyes open. I think your standard kollel family in Israel realizes very well that if they are going to live on one income and have many children, they are going to have to give up on luxuries/ needs like camp (or a large apartment, or new clothes, or lots of toys). And they don't whine. Their choice, and they live up to it with dignity. (or at least they should - I don't know enough kollel families personally to know what really goes on).
I can tell you that I know dozens, or probably hundreds, of kolel and working families near me some of whom send (and some don't) some or all of their dds to 'kaytana' for 2 or 3 weeks - till 1pm each day (one or two days are trips when they come home later). And the rest of the summer their children (boys up to 3 and girls of all ages) are at home. The mothers, yes, many of whom have five children under 8 (yes, I did too) take their children to a park most days. The children play at home, with each other (davka I understand much more the need for 'onlies' to go to camp, rather than those with siblings ready to play with), or invite/go to friends.
The difference, Shalhevet, is that these mothers (at least most of them) entered this scenario with their eyes open. I think your standard kollel family in Israel realizes very well that if they are going to live on one income and have many children, they are going to have to give up on luxuries/ needs like camp (or a large apartment, or new clothes, or lots of toys). And they don't whine. Their choice, and they live up to it with dignity. (or at least they should - I don't know enough kollel families personally to know what really goes on).
I want to add that I don't think that anyone who 'needs' camp is whining. I understand that in certain cultures it's more of a 'need' than in others. And if you pay for it yourself, wonderful, enjoy. If you have fallen on unforseeable hard times and 'need' camp to keep your sanity, then fine, you probably deserve tzeddeka.
What bothers me is when people choose a certain lifestyle where it's obvious that camp will probably be necessary - without planning to budget for it. They want to enjoy all the advantages of that lifestyle (many children, full time Torah study, close knit Jewish community, city life, whatever) without dealing with the disadvantages.
The families I know are not "whining". They didn't register their kids for kaitana. Then they received a phone call saying they could send their kids, because the cost had been covered. They are very appreciative.
In frum neighborhoods, kaitanot are much more affordable, therefore, much more feasible. I believe that day camp of a few hours, for a few weeks, should be made affordable for families, and that no one should be turned away for lack of ability to pay.
Those who feel that the answer to all challenges with kids is to have fewer kids - that's like cutting off limbs that need attention. A silly idea for Klal Yisrael.
Jews were often poor. Community members helped one another.
The families I know are not "whining". They didn't register their kids for kaitana. Then they received a phone call saying they could send their kids, because the cost had been covered. They are very appreciative.
In frum neighborhoods, kaitanot are much more affordable, therefore, much more feasible. I believe that day camp of a few hours, for a few weeks, should be made affordable for families, and that no one should be turned away for lack of ability to pay.
Those who feel that the answer to all challenges with kids is to have fewer kids - that's like cutting off limbs that need attention. A silly idea for Klal Yisrael.
Jews were often poor. Community members helped one another.
I don't think we were really talking about making day camp (till 1) more affordable. Rather the discussion was about subsidizing sleep-away camp, out of town.
I also don't think the answer to all challenges with kids is necessarily to have less. I also once had at least 4 under the age of 8. I'm just saying that yes, having many kids closely spaced comes at a cost. One of these is limited mobility. I know what's it's like not to be able to go on tiyulim on your own (without dh) because you have a toddler and a nursing baby and a few active kids, and you'll never be able to look after them all on your own. BTDT. And you know what? It was my choice. During those years, I lived in a very cheap area, way way out there (in Israel), where the gov't subsidizes ganim and camps and what not. I made do. Sure, I might have preferred to live in Givat Shmuel or Ra'anana or Shoham(or Brooklyn.....) but I realized the cost of living there would be so high that I'd never be able to give my kids what they need. Including camp.
Again, people don't seem to be taking into account all the factors when they make choices.
Those who feel that the answer to all challenges with kids is to have fewer kids - that's like cutting off limbs that need attention. A silly idea for Klal Yisrael. .
Not the answer to all challenges with kids. However, the challenge of not being able to handle your kids- well, if you can't handle what you have already, thats a very good and mutar reason to get a heter for birth control. Hashem doesn't want us to be shmatas. Hashem made halachos regarding birth control for a reason, so that when the mother truly cannot handle more kids than what she has, she doesn't need to keep on having more and more and more babies when she is already overwhelmed. Hashem doesn't want us going to the nut house- if you mamash can't handle having your kids and you're run ragged by them, taking care of your own needs (mental and physical) comes ahead of having more and more kids, especially if you've already been mekayem pru urevu.
This sounds like my mother saying "Eat, there's children starving in Africa"
Your point being? That's absolutely the right response to someone, child or adult, who is whining that they don't eat meat as often as they like, or they can't get kosher delicacies, or that they're having rice and beans AGAIN. You have healthy tasty food in front of you, count your blessings and b'teavon.
And no, Ruchel, the level of poverty I'm talking about our great grandmothers enduring didn't include a maid. You must point out to me these shtetlach where children were at risk of starving or freezing, and yet had maids.
My larger point is that you can be as unhappy with your life as you choose to be. If you focus on what you don't have, like a maid, summer camp, awesome AC, gourmet food cooked by someone else, then yes, you'll be miserable and probably entitled. If you try to remember that we have it very good by the standards of most of human history, that the vast majority of Jews today don't need to worry about keeping their kids safe and fed and clothed the way they did in the past ...
It's a matter of perspective. I choose to focus on the many, many blessings in my life, and to trust that Hashem will give me what I need, including not only material goods or money but (perhaps more important) the strength of character and courage to make do. Sounds like my approach works better for me than the entitled, "poor me" attitudes seen at some extremes here.
You must point out to me these shtetlach where children were at risk of starving or freezing, and yet had maids.
Very possible. Starving maids would definitely go to at risk of starving families because it is a bit better.
Glikel of Hameln had a maid in a tiny freezing room. But she had a maid.
Those who feel that the answer to all challenges with kids is to have fewer kids - that's like cutting off limbs that need attention. A silly idea for Klal Yisrael. .
Not the answer to all challenges with kids. However, the challenge of not being able to handle your kids- well, if you can't handle what you have already, thats a very good and mutar reason to get a heter for birth control.
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I agree. If you're struggling every summer, feeling like you're drowning at home where you're stuck with all your kids, it's time to re-evaluate. Time to re-evaluate finances, location, being a SAHM if you are one, being in kollel if applicable, etc. Also - it's definitely time to re-evaluate if it's wise to have any more children.
It is NOT time to run and ask the community to get you out of this mess. That should be a very last resort for emergencies, or for extenuating circumstances you can't control.
