I'm a young parent. Still in my 20s. I'm right in the throes of raising young kids (3.5, 21 months and a newborn). I know exactly what its like.
no you don't. your oldest is still a real baby. I have a 3.5 year old home too and I am not sending to camp. My first 3 are also that close and my oldest didn't go to school till he was 3.5. So I was home with them all for 9 months. I also got out ALL the time with them, I shlepped them to zoos, parks, museums. Now that I have FIVE and my oldest is 8 and down to a toddler its not so easy. Their age range makes it as I am being pulled in different directions. My oldest are also boys, so they don't want to help take care of the baby like a daughter would. BH they are helpful but enough to keep them home for the summer.
Sorry but you're a young mom, that doesn't know AT ALL what a mother with older and more kids goes through. I was at your stage once and yes it was easier but I was smart enough at that age to know that having more kids doesn't get easier.
gryp- This thread is pretty shocking. how often do you defend the fact that you don't send your kids to playgroup? People are shocked my upshernish boy is not in school yet. The horror on their face when I say he is not yet in school.
I'm a young parent. Still in my 20s. I'm right in the throes of raising young kids (3.5, 21 months and a newborn). I know exactly what its like.
no you don't. your oldest is still a real baby. I have a 3.5 year old home too and I am not sending to camp. My first 3 are also that close and my oldest didn't go to school till he was 3.5. So I was home with them all for 9 months. I also got out ALL the time with them, I shlepped them to zoos, parks, museums. Now that I have FIVE and my oldest is 8 and down to a toddler its not so easy. Their age range makes it as I am being pulled in different directions. My oldest are also boys, so they don't want to help take care of the baby like a daughter would. BH they are helpful but enough to keep them home for the summer.
Sorry but you're a young mom, that doesn't know AT ALL what a mother with older and more kids goes through. I was at your stage once and yes it was easier but I was smart enough at that age to know that having more kids doesn't get easier.
gryp- This thread is pretty shocking. how often do you defend the fact that you don't send your kids to playgroup? People are shocked my upshernish boy is not in school yet. The horror on their face when I say he is not yet in school.
My statement as in response to gryp's statement of:
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I'm theorizing that mothers who have grown up toddlers forget what the toddler stage is like. I'm trying to remind them but of course then, I need to learn how to parent effectively and my kids are too wild. There's a reason why grandmothers are around kids only sometimes
But again, you are sort of missing the point. Its not that camp doesn't have value for many children. Its that its a need for most kids. Its not. As a community we are forcing this artificial need because many parents "can't" or rather won't deal with their kids all day, even if its hard. That's not to discount the kids who have a real need for camp. If you can afford it, great. If not, tread carefully before taking tzedaka.
I'm a young parent. Still in my 20s. I'm right in the throes of raising young kids (3.5, 21 months and a newborn). I know exactly what its like.
no you don't. your oldest is still a real baby. I have a 3.5 year old home too and I am not sending to camp. My first 3 are also that close and my oldest didn't go to school till he was 3.5. So I was home with them all for 9 months. I also got out ALL the time with them, I shlepped them to zoos, parks, museums. Now that I have FIVE and my oldest is 8 and down to a toddler its not so easy. Their age range makes it as I am being pulled in different directions. My oldest are also boys, so they don't want to help take care of the baby like a daughter would. BH they are helpful but enough to keep them home for the summer.
Sorry but you're a young mom, that doesn't know AT ALL what a mother with older and more kids goes through. I was at your stage once and yes it was easier but I was smart enough at that age to know that having more kids doesn't get easier.
gryp- This thread is pretty shocking. how often do you defend the fact that you don't send your kids to playgroup? People are shocked my upshernish boy is not in school yet. The horror on their face when I say he is not yet in school.
Pickle Lady, so what you're saying is that it IS possible to survive raising kids without camp. You're AGREEING with Saw.
I would not like to be the one who sits on high and decides case by case for which mother camp is a need and which is a luxury.
I do not see this kind of behavior any more praiseworthy than a mother who collects tzedaka to get her kids off her head. Bad middos all around.
I have forgotten that the last money thread I participated in turned out badly because it boiled down to: "Be MO or you've made poor choices." A shame I got caught up in it again. It seems I was the only one not smart enough to put the thread on mental ignore.
Bye for now. I'm sure there are more interesting, stimulating things to talk about.
Pickle Lady, so what you're saying is that it IS possible to survive raising kids without camp. You're AGREEING with Saw.
Kids under 4 are still babies. I am not surviving without them in camp, they are still to young for camp in my opinion for my kids in my family. Older kids is another story. I won't keep older kids home for the summer. I will ask for tzedaka if I needed it.
PickleLady and Gryp, I don't know who either of you are in real life but I do live in the same community as you and I know plenty of people who keep their kids home till 3, plenty of people who have 2 or 3 kids home at once, and plenty of people who don't send kids to camp (including older kids) and wouldn't dream of asking for tzeddakah money to fund it. Perhaps the situation you describe is true to your circle of friends but certainly not to the entire community.
Even in Europe years ago, the majority of weddings were at a certain standard even for the poorest
My grandparents were married in the living room of my grandmother's parents. The canopy was a tallit. The rabbi was a family friend. The bride and her mother cooked. They considered themselves middle class.
I'm not sure why you posted this, except as a curiose in the discussion.
You do realize that it's absolutely irrelevant to anyone today how your grandparents got married, which was probably normal in that time and place?
WOW!!!.... I just spent the weekend upstate - in a cheap, musty hotel with subpar food... and the kids were in SEVENTH HEAVEN!!!!!.... my 3 yr old could not stop running around, eating grass, swinging on the swings, and then climbing on top of the tables in the dining room to throw down napkins or to stick his finger into every piece of potato kugel. But I was absolutely thunderstruck at the difference in this child when he was outdoors. He was calm. He was one with nature. he was focused, engaged, even trying out new sounds and tentative words. There is just nothing that compares to the great outdoors....
Sigh. Here we are, back home on our 3 flight walkup 15 yr old beat-up railroad apartment. Bye bye grass for the rest of the summer, hello endless hot concrete. (Unless we go back to another cheap motel for 2 weeks in august, which we just might do.)
The best part of the weekend? NO IMAMOTHER. NO FACEBOOK. NO TEXTING. NOTHING. Just me and my husband and my kids and a bunch of other amazing yentas. I made some wonderful friends this weekend.
The minute we walked into the house, my special needs 3 yr old ran to the door and threw himself down sobbing. He'd love to be outdoor all day. Too bad I dont live in a large park... oh wait, it does exist, it's called bungalow colonies....
Anyway, I was amazed at how simple and wonderful life can be without technology. and here I am, tethered back to this roundabout thread.....
Tomorrow, we IYH drop off Big Boy to Summer Cheder and then take Little Boy to Pier 6 at Brooklyn Bridge Park. Yes, on a bus. Where I['ll fold the stroller and hope he doesnt run onto the street or who-knows-where as I hold his hand, and theh stroller, and the metrocard, and my purse, and all the bags, and and and. and I'll let you all know what degree % of shmatta-ism I come home as .
Oh, how wonderful it was to have a 'real live' imamother all weekend long: 2 dozen women who understand the need for the little ones to enjoy the great outdoors .
having a wedding that is way out of the norm for her community standards it is no longer a simcha, but an embarrassment
Depends how SHE takes it. Some even choose that way. Or don't care.
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If a poor child doesn't have a bicycle/ a trip to camp/ a trip to the zoo - he just didn't have something, he is not publicly shown to be "poor".
Ha. Halevai. Kids are very perceptive, and very cruel.
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I have seen people go to America to raise money for weddings and buying their children apartments from people in communities where those people's own children did not have as big a wedding as the ones which they are now contributing to to be held in EY, and whose children do not own their own apartment while the children being solicited for are going to own one off the money of people who can't even buy their own children apartments. So yes, I have seen such things.
Me too. Just say no. And tell them why.
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starting up a Jewish community or enabling Jews to end up there for whatever reason (think Mombay, Katmandu, New Zealand) to have Jewish artifacts, services, education etc. In these places, from what I see, had there not been shluchim there would be nothing. No frum yidden, no kosher food, no orthodox minyan, etc.
Mombay has a natural, local community
New Zealand community, I THINK, is older than shlichus too.
A young couple who moves to a neighbourhood where all the kids have private homes and swimming pools, for example, should realize that their kid will be miserable if he's the only one living in a tiny old flat. Unless he's one of those special kids with uber confidence who can be popular and happy never mind the socio-economic circumstances. But most kids? It's a recipe for disaster.
I agree, but still many shluchim make it work!
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older kids babysitting and putting their money into that fund (yes!) for the younger siblings who need to be out to enjoy camp
I find that really unfair. Yes, better have WILLING ADULTS do it.
Now that I think of it, my grandparents thought summer and winter camps were a necessity for kids, or they would go nuts and drive their parents nuts.
I also wouldn't just have the koyech for what is listed. And a mom doesn't replace a playmate who runs and jumps and crawls with you.
Can I also add many of our great great grandmothers mentioned before, even poor, had an even poorer maid to help?
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Buy them a kite (or make one), a basketball, a wiffle ball bat and wiffle ball, a badmitton set. Then let them play.
Alone? or mostly alone? how much time will it be fine? how many days will they be into it?
Of course if plenty of frum kids are outside all the time, it's different.
"Of course if plenty of frum kids are outside all the time, it's different."
That's another good point. In Har Nof, my little kids played with other frum kids from their own building and the buildings next door, outside those buildings without much supervision.
Here? You kidding? One: it's a city. Two: of mostly chilonim. Three: You have to walk at least a block to get to frum friend. If my kids aren't in kaitana, they're alone.
But the level of self-pity and entitlement that comes out in these discussions? My grandmother had three babies in three years, lived in one room until the oldest was 5, and did a lot of it by herself because her husband was away a getting an education and starting to earn a living. She scrubbed out cloth diapers in the tub each night. A major treat was taking the kids across town on a bus to a public park. She thought she was lucky, because she just made it out of Europe on time, and while they lived on potatoes and wore three sweaters in the winter because coal was expensive, she wasn't worried about her babies being murdered.
Obviously life is much better now than it was 50 years ago. I insist on a dishwasher, and they didn't exist when she had young children. But whenever I feel self-pitying because the whole family shares one bathroom, or I can't afford a sitter as often as I'd like, it's like a mental bucket of cold water waking me up - just the handwashing diapers would've finished me.
The fact that others had it worse isn't much comfort. But I bet for 9 out of 10 women here, they not only have far better lives materially than their great-grandparents did, they don't live in fear of their lives or the lives of their kids like their ancestors did. We're a whiny generation, aren't we?
Friedasima, Shalhevet and Barbara, I agree with pretty much everything you write in this thread.
This sounds like my mother saying "Eat, there's children starving in Africa"
We live in a different time Thank G-d so there's no comparison. Kids are stuck behind a desk for 10 months. They should be socializing and being productive in the summer, not whiling the days away.
"Of course if plenty of frum kids are outside all the time, it's different."
That's another good point. In Har Nof, my little kids played with other frum kids from their own building and the buildings next door, outside those buildings without much supervision.
Here? You kidding? One: it's a city. Two: of mostly chilonim. Three: You have to walk at least a block to get to frum friend. If my kids aren't in kaitana, they're alone.
Where I live, kids who aren't in camp are either kept inside because the mom is too hot to go out, or sent out to play without supervision and these ones can be a bit wild etc. Of course sometimes, at the good hours, you'll find many playmates with their moms. But the rest of the day... If I was ok with allowing my preschooler out alone in the neighbourhood, yes she would often find kids including frum, but that's not my cup of tea. And I'm not going to be the supervisor for other kids every day. Especially since they are allowed much more stuff as in climbing everywhere, sliding on stairs, running near the lake etc that I do not want DD emulating.
I'm a young parent. Still in my 20s. I'm right in the throes of raising young kids (3.5, 21 months and a newborn). I know exactly what its like.
no you don't. your oldest is still a real baby. I have a 3.5 year old home too and I am not sending to camp. My first 3 are also that close and my oldest didn't go to school till he was 3.5. So I was home with them all for 9 months. I also got out ALL the time with them, I shlepped them to zoos, parks, museums. Now that I have FIVE and my oldest is 8 and down to a toddler its not so easy. Their age range makes it as I am being pulled in different directions. My oldest are also boys, so they don't want to help take care of the baby like a daughter would. BH they are helpful but enough to keep them home for the summer.
Sorry but you're a young mom, that doesn't know AT ALL what a mother with older and more kids goes through. I was at your stage once and yes it was easier but I was smart enough at that age to know that having more kids doesn't get easier.
gryp- This thread is pretty shocking. how often do you defend the fact that you don't send your kids to playgroup? People are shocked my upshernish boy is not in school yet. The horror on their face when I say he is not yet in school.
I agree that it's more the older kids that 'need' camp. Till age 8-9 kids are often satisfied with simpler activities. Certainly kids under age 6, most kids will be happy with arts and crafts and sports based activities, all which can be done at home or in the local park (assuming you have one.....) I've lived in different cities, and in some most of the older kids did go to day camp full of amusement parks, etc, but usually the younger set stayed home or went to a simple camp without day trips. Usually people prefer their 4 yr old doesn't go on trips far away with a large group anyway.
I guess I might qualify here as an 'older' mom. And I agree that it's very hard for kids to be home all summer. I have a car and take my kids out on lots of day trips. We don't have Sundays here in Israel, so the summer is like a concentrated time for family trips. We have about two major trips a week (water parks, safari, etc). But if I didn't have a car? Or couldn't drive? Or didn't have the money to buy tickets? I would be very frustrated, my kids even more so. We also live next to a large playground, and I take the little one there almost every evening. Plus my older kids get together independently with their friends very often. But these activities also cost money.
I totally understand the want/need to be able to entertain your kids in the summer. I side with those who say it's pretty impossible to entertain a 10 yr old all summer with chores and arts and crafts. (A 5 yr old is a different story, BTDT). I get the desire to send to camp (my kids aren't going this summer because they didn't want to. But they're being occupied with other activities).
So yes, camp is very very important for most people.
But.....I think FS is right. At some point, you have to be responsible for your choices. Someone here said she has 5 kids under age 8, blei eyin hara. That's a wonderful thing, but if you decide to have so many children so closely spaced, you must realize summers will be very tough. You must have a game plan. A summer is not a long weekend, it's 1/6 of the year!!
In general, if you have more kids than you can handle on your own on the subway.....realize you will not be going on many tiyulim. That's the price you pay.
Someone else said she moved to a very expensive area and didn't realize her kids would feel the need to compete. These are things a person should think of! And if you haven't, as FS said, make a plan to solve the problem. Don't ask for tzeddekka.
Other imamothers don't drive (for religious reasons). Again, you have to understand the consequences of deciding not to drive. You will not be mobile. Yes, you will have to drag your babies and strollers on the subway.
Or the imamothers who decide to live in concrete cities even though their kids have nothing to do there. Again, not for a weekend but for 1/6 of the year. Your choice. You weighed the plusses and minuses of living in Brooklyn or wherever and decided it was worth it. There are obviously a lot of wonderful things about Brooklyn - you can't enjoy them without also experiencing the disadvantages. Don't ask for tzeddeka so you can enjoy the good without taking responsibility for avoiding the bad.
Finally, many imamothers here wax eloquent on other threads about how boys don't need secular studies, or even how boys should study Torah full-time. Well, it's your choice to marry men like this and to perpetuate the cycle by sending boys to schools like this. You should be aware that by choosing this lifestyle you will not have money for camp. Or for a nice enough home in a neighbourhood that makes camp less necessary.
Now, I understand that perhaps some people will say it's our responsibility to ensure Jewish families are as large as possible and men study mainly Torah, and that we should give money to ensure poorer families don't break under the stress. Personally, I think it's just perpetuating the cycle of poverty.
I really feel for those families who have 10 kids at home and no money to do anything with them and no ability to handle them all on public transportation. I do think that in some individual cases they deserve the tzeddekka for camp (ESPECIALLY when circumstances are out of their control).
But what bothers me is the lack of connectors here. I would be less annoyed if people said, these families have made unfortunate choices. They didn't realize they need an education, they didn't realize kids don't like living in concrete blocks, they didn't realize women need a driving license, they didn't realize that having baby year after year would severely limit their ability to entertain their kids. Now they are stuck, let's help them out.
I guess I would understand that approach. What I dont' understand is the assumption that there are no consequences to such choices. These people just happen to have fallen in a rut. NO - although people do fall into a rut sometimes - the situations I am hearing about over and over on this thread are of people who have dug their own rut.
there is no outside place where I live. I live on the outskirts of the community. there is no way they can go fly a kite by themselves where we live. I live in a building in the city.
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