Everything you are saying is correct. But none of this comes out of the blue. In such situations parents know that there is going to be an added expense of camp and then from the beginning of the previous year they start a "camp fund" that is funded either by mommy taking on a part time job or older kids babysitting and putting their money into that fund (yes!) for the younger siblings who need to be out to enjoy camp.
Why does that money have to come from handouts and not working towards that goal together as a family? That's not feasable for a family with five kids under the age of six of course (the older siblings putting aside money for younger siblings camp) but in other families? Why should people from outside families take money away from what they could do for their own kids to pay for someone elses kids going to camp when that own person's older children aren't contributing towards it?
I know, it's a very novel thought to have older siblings babysitting money or odd job money pay for a younger siblings camp, but you know, zedoko begins at home....and one has a year to prepare, the summer like pregnancy doesn't just "happen" all of a sudden...one gets time to prepare for it.
I love how suddenly my parenting is awful because my kids act like kids. Proof of generation gap.
I agree that different kids are different but parenting is a lot more permissive these days, and kids aren't belted for what is normal kid activities. The older generation goes into shock when they see kids not being perfect angels.
Quote:
Mommy camp can happen, but can't happen 24/7. My kids, and many others, need more.
I don't understand why all the focus on TP. We don't even hold that it needs to be pre-torn!
Arts and crafts -- beads, finger painting, regular painting, shaving cream on bathroom walls, crayons, play doh, gluing shapes, make picture frames, tie dye tee shirts, making lanyards, stamping, weaving a basket, learning to knit or crochet.
Playing dress up and make believe. Yes, even boys like this.
Blocks, lego, knex, other building toys.
Making cookies.
Board games (I have a house full of boys playing board games all day, every Shabbat, all winter, although its clearly easier with older kids). Charades/ Simon says. Other indoor games.
For girls, playing school, playing house, playing with dolls.
Sciense experiments. Make ooblek.
Lather, rinse and repeat for several indoor days.
Outdoors, the possibilities are endless. Go to a playground with a sprinkler, and with limited places of ingress and egress. Let them play tag, jump rope, play ball, hide and seek, swing on the rings, ride scooters and bikes.
"I know, it's a very novel thought to have older siblings babysitting money or odd job money pay for a younger siblings camp"
Very novel. Here is one thing we're doing: My 12 year old dd teaches her 4 year old brother English (the alphabet and words that begin with each letter) and in return she gets a shopping trip for clothes she wants (as opposed to mamash needs).
To paraphrase a beloved poster, I'm sure the OP meant well, really, but those posts make me ill.
gryp wrote:
I love how suddenly my parenting is awful because my kids act like kids. Proof of generation gap.
I agree that different kids are different but parenting is a lot more permissive these days, and kids aren't belted for what is normal kid activities. The older generation goes into shock when they see kids not being perfect angels.
Quote:
Mommy camp can happen, but can't happen 24/7. My kids, and many others, need more.
Yay, Isramom!
Gryp, never mind generation gap. how about culture gap? Most of the judgmental messages in this thread are from people who either live in Israel and yes, it's a completely different culture in terms of how they spend their summers or are of a different mindset/culture regarding larger families, reflecting different values. None of that will change, and it's all logic to the wind.
Barbara, great ideas. It's fun to read But I know that I wouldn't have had the energy to keep it up for long when my kids were little. earlier this year I was babysitting for my toddler grandson, and helping my dd care for her newborn before they moved; mommying is a very time and energy consuming thing, you're just grateful to get through the day sometimes.
Last edited by TzenaRena on Sun, Jul 03 2011, 6:08 pm; edited 2 times in total
I love how suddenly my parenting is awful because my kids act like kids. Proof of generation gap.
I agree that different kids are different but parenting is a lot more permissive these days, and kids aren't belted for what is normal kid activities. The older generation goes into shock when they see kids not being perfect angels.
Hi. New here, 28, live in midwest, three kids. Part time teacher, part time SAHM. Lurked for a while, coming out to be beaten up now.
This thread has really made me think. You're right, this shouldn't be about you, gryp, or any other one person. But the bolded bit is something that really bugs me about a lot of moms our age.
We don't lay a finger on the kids. Don't raise our voices much, either. During the toddler phase, we used time outs a LOT, but that's about it, combined with logical/natural consequences (behave horribly in public, get carried out of the party kicking and screaming if necessary, etc). Disclaimer: my oldest is 8, but I really don't think we'll use corporal punishment on older kids if we don't on younger ones.
You can have very well behaved kids who aren't spanked, much less belted. While my kids can be chaotic and noisy, and frequently are at home, I'm almost constantly told by others that I have polite, kind and well-behaved children. Even my wild child is naughty and a bit rebellious, rather than rude, vicious, violent or out-of-control. There is a middle ground between violent or brutal punishment, and raising wild animals. I think it's better for the kids to find this middle ground, but I also think it's better for the parents. I applaud parents who refuse to spank or hit or potch or whatever, but you as the mom still don't deserve a life of chaos. You can have limits and rules and standards without crying and hitting and belting. And having those limits goes a long way towards making time alone with your kids pleasant, even.
As to yeridat hadorot, well ... let me say that I am NOT that person who's a martyr and proud of my ability to do without. We live comfortably, but aren't rich. Unlike some of the mothers here I'm lucky enough not to have to worry about paying for food or rent. Unlike some of the mothers here I'm not lucky enough for a full-on "vacation." (I stayed in a hotel with DH on our honeymoon. Otherwise, holidays are with family or camping.)
So I'm not trying to sound snotty at all when I say this.
But the level of self-pity and entitlement that comes out in these discussions? My grandmother had three babies in three years, lived in one room until the oldest was 5, and did a lot of it by herself because her husband was away a getting an education and starting to earn a living. She scrubbed out cloth diapers in the tub each night. A major treat was taking the kids across town on a bus to a public park. She thought she was lucky, because she just made it out of Europe on time, and while they lived on potatoes and wore three sweaters in the winter because coal was expensive, she wasn't worried about her babies being murdered.
Obviously life is much better now than it was 50 years ago. I insist on a dishwasher, and they didn't exist when she had young children. But whenever I feel self-pitying because the whole family shares one bathroom, or I can't afford a sitter as often as I'd like, it's like a mental bucket of cold water waking me up - just the handwashing diapers would've finished me.
The fact that others had it worse isn't much comfort. But I bet for 9 out of 10 women here, they not only have far better lives materially than their great-grandparents did, they don't live in fear of their lives or the lives of their kids like their ancestors did. We're a whiny generation, aren't we?
Friedasima, Shalhevet and Barbara, I agree with pretty much everything you write in this thread.
I don't understand why all the focus on TP. We don't even hold that it needs to be pre-torn!
Arts and crafts -- beads, finger painting, regular painting, shaving cream on bathroom walls, crayons, play doh, gluing shapes, make picture frames, tie dye tee shirts, making lanyards, stamping, weaving a basket, learning to knit or crochet.
Playing dress up and make believe. Yes, even boys like this.
Blocks, lego, knex, other building toys.
Making cookies.
Board games (I have a house full of boys playing board games all day, every Shabbat, all winter, although its clearly easier with older kids). Charades/ Simon says. Other indoor games.
For girls, playing school, playing house, playing with dolls.
Sciense experiments. Make ooblek.
Lather, rinse and repeat for several indoor days.
Outdoors, the possibilities are endless. Go to a playground with a sprinkler, and with limited places of ingress and egress. Let them play tag, jump rope, play ball, hide and seek, swing on the rings, ride scooters and bikes.
Have FUN.
Barbara, I'm picking on the toilet paper example because many of the older posters here have not much idea what goes on in a house of toddlers and the judging has crossed the line.
I'm theorizing that mothers who have grown up toddlers forget what the toddler stage is like. I'm trying to remind them but of course then, I need to learn how to parent effectively and my kids are too wild. There's a reason why grandmothers are around kids only sometimes.
Secondly, to me the average family has at least one child who is more demanding than the rest, for whatever reason. Or the parent/s has what I call "kleine keilim" (literally, small vessels), ie., not capable of handling much stress for too long.
So that's that. And getting all the "do what I did! choose what I chose!" posts from older women is just over the top. Surely all the life experience should teach people a few things about why individuals live where they live. Reminds me of my parents and grandparents who still haven't come to terms with the fact that I live in Brooklyn and I'm not planning on moving away anytime soon. Hello, I've been here TEN YEARS. And when I related recently that I'm looking to buy a house, boy did I have freak out, because they were SURE that I meant buy a house elsewhere- anywhere except in NY. Montana, China, Northwest Territories would have all been much better choices, for me, I mean for them. They mean for me but they mean for them. See what I mean? All that life experience and they can't possibly be wrong about what I want/need.
To paraphrase a beloved poster, I'm sure the OP meant well, really, but those posts make me ill.
Gryp, never mind generation gap. how about culture gap? Most of the judgmental messages in this thread are from people who either live in Israel and yes, it's a completely different culture in terms of how they spend their summers or are of a different mindset/culture regarding larger families, reflecting different values. None of that will change, and it's all logic to the wind.
Barbara, great ideas. It's fun to read
Tzena, you are right. There are some very special Bubbies out there who do relate well and their adult children and grandchildren know it. My mil is one of them, G-d bless her. Since you see the judgmentalism in this thread, you must be one as well.
Last edited by gryp on Sun, Jul 03 2011, 6:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
I love how suddenly my parenting is awful because my kids act like kids. Proof of generation gap.
I agree that different kids are different but parenting is a lot more permissive these days, and kids aren't belted for what is normal kid activities. The older generation goes into shock when they see kids not being perfect angels.
Hi. New here, 28, live in midwest, three kids. Part time teacher, part time SAHM. Lurked for a while, coming out to be beaten up now.
This thread has really made me think. You're right, this shouldn't be about you, gryp, or any other one person. But the bolded bit is something that really bugs me about a lot of moms our age.
We don't lay a finger on the kids. Don't raise our voices much, either. During the toddler phase, we used time outs a LOT, but that's about it, combined with logical/natural consequences (behave horribly in public, get carried out of the party kicking and screaming if necessary, etc). Disclaimer: my oldest is 8, but I really don't think we'll use corporal punishment on older kids if we don't on younger ones.
You can have very well behaved kids who aren't spanked, much less belted. While my kids can be chaotic and noisy, and frequently are at home, I'm almost constantly told by others that I have polite, kind and well-behaved children. Even my wild child is naughty and a bit rebellious, rather than rude, vicious, violent or out-of-control. There is a middle ground between violent or brutal punishment, and raising wild animals. I think it's better for the kids to find this middle ground, but I also think it's better for the parents. I applaud parents who refuse to spank or hit or potch or whatever, but you as the mom still don't deserve a life of chaos. You can have limits and rules and standards without crying and hitting and belting. And having those limits goes a long way towards making time alone with your kids pleasant, even.
As to yeridat hadorot, well ... let me say that I am NOT that person who's a martyr and proud of my ability to do without. We live comfortably, but aren't rich. Unlike some of the mothers here I'm lucky enough not to have to worry about paying for food or rent. Unlike some of the mothers here I'm not lucky enough for a full-on "vacation." (I stayed in a hotel with DH on our honeymoon. Otherwise, holidays are with family or camping.)
So I'm not trying to sound snotty at all when I say this.
But the level of self-pity and entitlement that comes out in these discussions? My grandmother had three babies in three years, lived in one room until the oldest was 5, and did a lot of it by herself because her husband was away a getting an education and starting to earn a living. She scrubbed out cloth diapers in the tub each night. A major treat was taking the kids across town on a bus to a public park. She thought she was lucky, because she just made it out of Europe on time, and while they lived on potatoes and wore three sweaters in the winter because coal was expensive, she wasn't worried about her babies being murdered.
Obviously life is much better now than it was 50 years ago. I insist on a dishwasher, and they didn't exist when she had young children. But whenever I feel self-pitying because the whole family shares one bathroom, or I can't afford a sitter as often as I'd like, it's like a mental bucket of cold water waking me up - just the handwashing diapers would've finished me.
The fact that others had it worse isn't much comfort. But I bet for 9 out of 10 women here, they not only have far better lives materially than their great-grandparents did, they don't live in fear of their lives or the lives of their kids like their ancestors did. We're a whiny generation, aren't we?
Friedasima, Shalhevet and Barbara, I agree with pretty much everything you write in this thread.
I might have mentioned extremes in parenting, but only to make a point, not to say there is no middle ground.
My kids are perfectly fine BH and I have never had any trouble dealing with them effectively. That doesn't mean I don't live in chaos- I give them plenty of room to be kids. I don't expect kids to act like adults, they have plenty of time to learn how and they will get to that point by the time they reach adulthood. I don't expect them to be little adults, I want them to have a childhood so that when adult time comes for them, they are ready for it and don't feel it forced on them since they were 2.
Btw, ask my kids' teachers. My kids are the most well-behaved in the class.
I might have mentioned extremes in parenting, but only to make a point, not to say there is no middle ground.
My kids are perfectly fine BH and I have never had any trouble dealing with them effectively. That doesn't mean I don't live in chaos- I give them plenty of room to be kids. I don't expect kids to act like adults, they have plenty of time to learn how and they will get to that point by the time they reach adulthood. I don't expect them to be little adults, I want them to have a childhood so that when adult time comes for them, they are ready for it and don't feel it forced on them since they were 2.
Btw, ask my kids' teachers. My kids are the most well-behaved in the class.
Fair enough. Sounds pretty healthy to me. It bugs me though when people who were raised in a way I consider abusive overcompensate by having no discipline, does that make sense?
I might have mentioned extremes in parenting, but only to make a point, not to say there is no middle ground.
My kids are perfectly fine BH and I have never had any trouble dealing with them effectively. That doesn't mean I don't live in chaos- I give them plenty of room to be kids. I don't expect kids to act like adults, they have plenty of time to learn how and they will get to that point by the time they reach adulthood. I don't expect them to be little adults, I want them to have a childhood so that when adult time comes for them, they are ready for it and don't feel it forced on them since they were 2.
Btw, ask my kids' teachers. My kids are the most well-behaved in the class.
Fair enough. Sounds pretty healthy to me. It bugs me though when people who were raised in a way I consider abusive overcompensate by having no discipline, does that make sense?
For sure. I know what you mean but I can't say I know anyone like that, only read about it.
you're just grateful to get through the day sometimes.
Yes, Tzena! See you do get it. When I say a good day for me is being able to get dinner done and maybe a load of laundry, I'm not exaggerating. I focus my strength and energy on my kids and if they're happy at the end of the day, I'm happy and consider the day a success.
Funny, I said this to an older woman recently who G-d knows does much more than I do- 13 kids from adult to toddler, a new grandmother, also on shlichus- so making programs, a summer camp, etc etc. She sighed and smiled at me, and knew exactly what I meant. And she didn't say Nananakishkish, I do much more than you, something must be wrong with you. She knows and understands what mothering a bunch of little ones entails.
As an older poster, I want to add a few misc thoughts.
I don't think that the older posters have forgotten what its like to have young kids. I do think that some of the younger posters may still need to adjust a bit to life with kids. When parents of little ones talk about having to change kids dirty clothing, or the need to keep the house spotless and neat, I laugh. My mantra was that if DS was in clean clothes at the end of the day, something was wrong. Put the kids in inexpensive clothes and unless they get wet or sticky, let them be. And let the house go some days. Its OK if the laundry isn't put away one day, or if the toys stay out overnight for once. Relax. Enjoy.
Maybe some of the kids you think need structure may need a little *less* structure. We -- and I do mean we, as I am guilty as well -- overprogram our kids. Its especially difficult in the religious world, since our kids have such long school days. But during summer, we should help them learn to decompress, to just be. They don't need daily or weekly trips. They need to run around and be kids. Buy them a kite (or make one), a basketball, a wiffle ball bat and wiffle ball, a badmitton set. Then let them play.
Sometimes, give your kids the gift of no. We don't go away for winter break. We can't afford it and, even if we could, it would be a problem for DH's work schedule. There have been years when every, and I mean every, one of his friends has gone away. And he has had to learn that sometimes he gets treats, and sometimes, he has to live with our family's limitations.
There's just plain old a limited amount of resources in the world. And we all have to learn the difference between a need and a want. I *want* my floors refinished. Its not happening. Sure, it drives me crazy on a daily basis. And I've been known to rant and cry about the fact that our floors look so bad. But its still not happening. Instead, we'll pay for a tutor for DS. Which is probably also a want for us, but closer to the line.
It may be harsh, but for a normal, competent parent of normal children, summer camp is a want. The kids can survive without it. And a normal, competent parent can survive without it. That doesn't mean its easy. Or that some parents or kids might have different needs that change the equation. Or that summer camp isn't a good thing. But not all good things, like my floor, are a need. Or as Mick Jagger once said *you can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need*
This thread is kind of funny because gryp and I in our community are not at all considered lazy mothers. In our community its considered a complete norm to put your child into playgroup at the age of 18 months. Its very very rare to see a mother here with more than 1 kid at home during the day, even a SAHM. so if a woman has 2 kids 18 months apart that older kids HAS to go to playgroup. Gryp and I have had 3 at home at one time. we both don't send to school until they are close to 3 at the beginning of the school year.
Its laughable that we are the ones defending day camp. Anyone in our community would laugh at this thread.
I don't think that the older posters have forgotten what its like to have young kids. I do think that some of the younger posters may still need to adjust a bit to life with kids. When parents of little ones talk about having to change kids dirty clothing, or the need to keep the house spotless and neat, I laugh. My mantra was that if DS was in clean clothes at the end of the day, something was wrong. Put the kids in inexpensive clothes and unless they get wet or sticky, let them be. And let the house go some days. Its OK if the laundry isn't put away one day, or if the toys stay out overnight for once. Relax. Enjoy.
I think that's completely personality and nothing to do with age or experience. My kids wear cheap clothing but I'd never let them out of the house with stains or dirt. So yes, I'm changing some of them 2-3 times a day. And sometimes after they're in pajamas, if they get dirty, there's no way they're getting into clean beds with dirty pajamas, so we change again.
Here's another anecdote from a mom of 5 under 8: Plenty of times I leave over laundry, toys, etc. But my kids know well the song I always sing to them, about what happens when stuff is left over for the next day's work: "And the mess grew bigger, every single day. The mess grew bigger, we couldn't stop the growing, and the mess grew bigger, we should have cleaned up right away."
Laundry or toys from 3 or 5 people, not a big deal to straighten quickly the next morning. Laundry from 7 is already a mountain that needs adequate time to tackle. And I only have 5 KAH, we're hardly considered a large family.
Quote:
Maybe some of the kids you think need structure may need a little *less* structure. We -- and I do mean we, as I am guilty as well -- overprogram our kids. Its especially difficult in the religious world, since our kids have such long school days. But during summer, we should help them learn to decompress, to just be. They don't need daily or weekly trips. They need to run around and be kids. Buy them a kite (or make one), a basketball, a wiffle ball bat and wiffle ball, a badmitton set. Then let them play.
I have kids on both extremes of this. One NEEDS more structure than I can possibly give him. G-d bless him, he needed to be an only child. Instead, he's the oldest of five.
My third son wants ZERO structure. He doesn't want to hear of camp or school or anything. He wants to play Lego and blocks all day long. Swimming, trips, arts & crafts, baking = BORING. It is completely my style to just allow kids to find their own activities, but I know that with this one, if I ever want him to function in a classroom (next fall IYH), he needs to get used to the idea that we don't always do whatever we want whenever we want.
Again, I'm not complaining. I can also afford day camp. I'm just trying to portray that when a mother is a SAHM and says her kids need camp, it may be worth it to show some empathy and slack off on the judging, because you never know what is going on in a person's life. It may be cultural, it may be personality, it may be medical issues. Whatever it is, it's not my business.
This thread is kind of funny because gryp and I in our community are not at all considered lazy mothers. In our community its considered a complete norm to put your child into playgroup at the age of 18 months. Its very very rare to see a mother here with more than 1 kid at home during the day, even a SAHM. so if a woman has 2 kids 18 months apart that older kids HAS to go to playgroup. Gryp and I have had 3 at home at one time. we both don't send to school until they are close to 3 at the beginning of the school year.
Its laughable that we are the ones defending day camp. Anyone in our community would laugh at this thread.
But I know that I wouldn't have had the energy to keep it up for long when my kids were little. earlier this year I was babysitting for my toddler grandson, and helping my dd care for her newborn before they moved; mommying is a very time and energy consuming thing, you're just grateful to get through the day sometimes.
