It sounded to me like that thread was written by someone who has a special reason to feel incapable of caring for her kids, but didn't want to say what, or didn't think it was relevant.
So it's hard to say if it's a "spoiled" thing, her reason could be spoiled or could be completely legitimate.
I was disturbed by the amother (not the OP of that thread as far as I could tell) who claimed that camp is necessary for all children. I hope her attitude isn't the norm. Most people I know in this generation do not share her approach.
If someone thinks camp is necessary for all her children, it just might be..
For a child that cannot succeed academically, and has the potential to shine in a camp setting IMO it becomes a priority to send that child to camp. For a child that comes from a dysfunctional home and the only break that child might get, and the only normalcy, it becomes a priority. There can be MANY reasons camp becomes a 'necessity' for specific children and families, and I would say don't judge the OP. If you can't afford camp and it's not important to break the bank for it, so be it.
In fact, my daughters school has a Camp Fund where they raise money to send children in the school that cannot afford camp and the school feels it's of utmost importance that these specific children attend camp. Different family situations call for different interventions, and in OP's case this might be what she needs to do for whatever reason.
I agree completely, but I hear the drumbeat of "camp is a necessity" far, far more often from rabbonim, ravs, Rebbes, principals, and other experts in chinuch (both real and soi-disant) than I hear it from SAHMs or even mothers with outside jobs.
Given the status of the people who extol the importance of camp, I hardly think it's fair to blame women for buying into the idea, even partially, that camp is a necessity.
This is a good point. I think a lot of us aren't aware of those pressures. Pressure to send kids to camp isn't really a thing in a lot of places - not in Israel (except for some schools with mandatory "camp"), not in many small US Jewish communities.
So if a mother from NYC or another major US Jewish community talks about why camp is necessary in her eyes but doesn't mention rabbis, we're not going to know that rabbis had anything to do with it, we'll assume the explanation given (heat, bored kids, etc) is all there is.
Just wanted to add that I'd never heard that, either.
I actually see the paradigm changing somewhat in my community to camps being even less used. When DS was younger, our beloved sitter used to ask for 4 to 6 weeks off during the summer to visit her elderly mother abroad, so we needed day camp to fill in for her. By time he hit middle school, very very few kids were in day camp, and it was difficult to cobble together a summer without either a sitter or overnight camp. Today, OTOH, there are a lot of weekly camps available in the area, and a large number of kids attending a couple of weeks of day camp, or no camp at all. The economy strikes again, I guess.
It sounded to me like that thread was written by someone who has a special reason to feel incapable of caring for her kids, but didn't want to say what, or didn't think it was relevant.
So it's hard to say if it's a "spoiled" thing, her reason could be spoiled or could be completely legitimate.
I was disturbed by the amother (not the OP of that thread as far as I could tell) who claimed that camp is necessary for all children. I hope her attitude isn't the norm. Most people I know in this generation do not share her approach.
If someone thinks camp is necessary for all her children, it just might be..
For a child that cannot succeed academically, and has the potential to shine in a camp setting IMO it becomes a priority to send that child to camp. For a child that comes from a dysfunctional home and the only break that child might get, and the only normalcy, it becomes a priority. There can be MANY reasons camp becomes a 'necessity' for specific children and families, and I would say don't judge the OP. If you can't afford camp and it's not important to break the bank for it, so be it.
In fact, my daughters school has a Camp Fund where they raise money to send children in the school that cannot afford camp and the school feels it's of utmost importance that these specific children attend camp. Different family situations call for different interventions, and in OP's case this might be what she needs to do for whatever reason.
Ora, I agree with you.
But the poster to whom I think that people were reacting didn't actually say that camp was necessary for *some* kids. She said that it was a necessity for ALL kids, on par with food and shelter, and that kids who don't attend camp are deprived and underprivileged. She went on to criticize those who disagreed as lacking ahavat Yisrael.
Other posters continued with that thread -- camp is necessary, particularly for stay at home moms with many kids, or particularly for moms in Brooklyn (although, as a resident of a different borough of NY, I'm still puzzling over that one).
Who are the ones telling women that they should expect X amount of jewelry and presents when they get engaged or married? Who is the one telling chossens that they should expect silver ornaments from the in laws when he is engaged? And who is the one telling parents that if they don't give their kids X, Y , and Z their cildren will be deprived?
Part of it at least in the shtark MO community is that the people running the camps during the summer and making a good living from them are some of the same mechanchim who are pushing camp all year long. but it's not only in America. Here in my local yerushalayim school the husband of one of the teachers ran a three week day camp that most of the kids from the school went to. Mine didn't. And I told the teacher straight out at the beginning of the year that my kids are not going to camp and she should know it and I really don't want to hear from them that there was any propaganda in class or subtle pressure that if the kids don't go to camp the attitude towards them will be...or that the next year when she will be mechanechet of my next child there will be an attitude because her older sibling didn't go to the (mixed) camp...
I'm formidable when I get riled up. she got the message. But I heard from other mothers about the subtle pressure of "if your child isn't going then he/she is going to be a pariah, they won't have the skills that we teach them at camp and then how will they cope the next school year?"
Balderdash. A good mother giving them skills at home outdoes most camps
I wanted to bring up this point, but I was far too timid! Now that FS has done so, I'll pile on!
IMHO, the key question is "Cui bono?" Who benefits? In my experience, many of the people most strident about the "necessity" of camp are precisely the people who benefit financially.
As for the propaganda, I wish it was "subtle"! Try "blatant" instead! One of my biggest pet peeves at the two different high schools my DDs have attended is the practice of the principal or mechaneches "selling" the girls on a specific camp without discussing it with the parents first. One DD's principal actually gave her literature and tried to convince her not to work at a successful summer job but to attend a $500 per week camp for a month. I put the kibosh on that, but it permanently soured my relationship with the principal. I am sure that many parents simply sucked it up and came up with $2000.
I'm normally not cynical or given to conspiracy theories, but I've often wondered if some of these principals, etc., are actually getting kickbacks. Of course, I'm from Chicago, where an elected official without a felony indictment is considered to be a little slow . . . so maybe my standards are skewed!
Fox you said it as it is.
They may not be getting financial kickbacks but some of the chinuch people get cushy camp jobs and - or send their large families there for free. Ugly business. If anyone had tried that with my kids = trying to keep them from taking a job and instead wanted them to go to a $2000 a month camp? You can believe me that they wouldn't be working too much longer in chinuch.
I guess I'm lucky that I have connections in the business. But I also have a very big mouth and clout and people have learned to be a bit afraid of me. And I'm nothing compared to my husband, he is the holy terror for many younger chinuch people who have tried "foileh shtikim" on other people and my husband the crusader (successful unlike the historical crusaders here in EY) got wind of it.
Shabbat I think it may be a function of when people left europe. My grandparents came to the USA long before the FIRST world war. They were poor. Dirt poor. No frills. Lox was something that they ate maybe twice a year it was so expensive. That's how they brought my mother up and that's how I was brought up even though we could afford it. A big treat was buying american cheese. My grandmother used to buy the ends of cheese in the kosher market or the ends of salami at the butcher and make meals out of it....I was brought up super frugal. She would buy the dented cans in the supermarket and go to the manager and get them bargained down a penny a can and this was in the 1960s. She taught me to bargain. Nothing was bought firsthand. There was just no money when she was raising my mother.
Cold cereals were unknown in Europe, they were unhealthy (all that sugar, we didn't even have sugar in the house). You wanted something sweet? You got a fruit. She didn't bake. There was some homemade jam to put on bread and that was enough. Ice cream was not brought into the house, I would get a dime to be able to buy myself a popsicle or something outside as a kid.
A big treat was homemade pancakes.
We had sour cream once a year. On pesach because it was all you could get that was KLP in our area.
My grandmother ran the kitchen, they lived with us, and that's how I was brought up.
Nothing was wasted, Even eggshells would be saved to use as potting material for plants.
Now that's frugal.
I agree with happyone.
Some kids need camp. Because nowadays, the way to keep kids frum is to make them feel content with the lifestyle. A kid who had a miserable year academically in school, or hasn't done well for whatever reason - for this type of child, their camp experience can change their life when it's a positive experience.
Some kids need to get their energy out from sitting and learning all year. There is a lack of outdoor space and parks in the city, so camp is a great solution.
It's a luxury for some, but a necessity for others.
Fox you said it as it is.
They may not be getting financial kickbacks but some of the chinuch people get cushy camp jobs and - or send their large families there for free. Ugly business. If anyone had tried that with my kids = trying to keep them from taking a job and instead wanted them to go to a $2000 a month camp? You can believe me that they wouldn't be working too much longer in chinuch.
It gets even better! When we submitted our financial aid application for the next year, the principal wanted our DD to use her summer earnings to pay tuition.
Truthfully, I'm not 100 percent opposed to that idea. A lot of families that send their kids to Roman Catholic schools require that the kids contribute a percentage of their part-time or summer earnings, and I think it sends a valuable message about the costs and value of education.
But to strong-arm us to send DD to a camp we couldn't afford and then demand the money from DD's summer work? Not quite as bad as the kid who murdered his parents begging for leniency because he's an orphan, but uncomfortably close!
Fox your story is horrendous! I can't believe that someone calling himself a mechanech would actually try to keep your daughter from working and then later ask for some of her summer earnings in order to pay tuition.
Tell them that this pays for her clothes otherwise she has to go to school naked! See what he says then!
It's taking me a long time to read all the responses so I'm just putting my thoughts out here sooner rather than later.
Tamiri and others, it doesn't seem like you're giving anyone money personally so what exactly is bothering you? Is it that the children will get spoiled having fun with their friends and having a good time? Or is it the overwhelmed mothers that must be dripping in diamonds, vacations, and SUMMER CAMP? Not being harassed by their children all summer will definitely spoil them and only desire the finer things in life, what next, limo taxi services? Why exactly does this bother you? It's not coming out of government funds, nobody is holding a gun to anyone's head. They are willingly giving of their money so some children don't have to be miserable at home. Oh, and please don't compare today's generation to any other. I don't think my parents saw me from morning to night growing up in Monsey. We were roaming with packs of kids, all in the same boat, and almost none going to camp. Today, if I was a parent keeping my children home from camp they would have no one to socialize with, no pool to swim in, and they'd have a completely unproductive wasteful two months. I may be a sahm but I'm a very busy one. I am not the entertainment committee. If you are not interested in giving to those that have less than you then don't but don't tell other people how to spend their money. DH and I have given thousands of dollars to a couple of families, one in particular that comes to mind is a friend that learns in kollel. It would never cross my mind to question how they'll spend that money. If camp is their priority then so be it. We are not all one person and what works for you does not work for everyone else. All of this just comes across as nothing but jealousy. "If I have to work so hard struggling to afford to send my children to camp, or worse I can't afford to send them and have to keep them at home, how DARE YOU send your kids for free?!" I understand the feeling but I am in complete opposition to it.
You are getting it wrong MerryMom. I didn't struggle. It was clear as day have money = do what you won't with it. Don't have money = make do another way. The thinking has clearly shifted, across the board. And yes, part of what is seen here on this board is that a lot of the younger moms who did get camp and whatever amenities and can't provide the same for their children, for whatever reason, are falling apart at the THOUGHT of having their kids home. That's right, just the thought is enough to send them into a downward spiral. Not all moms, but enough to make it a problem because the money to send their children to camp just isn't there, unless you want to give to them as well.
FTR, the camps we give to are for special needs children and for children in war zones.
You are getting it wrong MerryMom. I didn't struggle. It was clear as day have money = do what you won't with it. Don't have money = make do another way. The thinking has clearly shifted, across the board. And yes, part of what is seen here on this board is that a lot of the younger moms who did get camp and whatever amenities and can't provide the same for their children, for whatever reason, are falling apart at the THOUGHT of having their kids home. That's right, just the thought is enough to send them into a downward spiral. Not all moms, but enough to make it a problem because the money to send their children to camp just isn't there, unless you want to give to them as well.
FTR, the camps we give to are for special needs children and for children in war zones.
We do. Agudas Yisrael has a camp scholarship fund that they solicit for. I wish everyone would feel for those kids left behind while their friends are having a blast. I'm all for principles when it comes to the adults but when it comes to kids, don't make them pay the price for their parents' financial troubles.
You are getting it wrong MerryMom. I didn't struggle. It was clear as day have money = do what you won't with it. Don't have money = make do another way. The thinking has clearly shifted, across the board. And yes, part of what is seen here on this board is that a lot of the younger moms who did get camp and whatever amenities and can't provide the same for their children, for whatever reason, are falling apart at the THOUGHT of having their kids home. That's right, just the thought is enough to send them into a downward spiral. Not all moms, but enough to make it a problem because the money to send their children to camp just isn't there, unless you want to give to them as well.
FTR, the camps we give to are for special needs children and for children in war zones.
We do. Agudas Yisrael has a camp scholarship fund that they solicit for. I wish everyone would feel for those kids left behind while their friends are having a blast. I'm all for principles when it comes to the adults but when it comes to kids, don't make them pay the price for their parents' financial troubles.
I don't know if it's a result of this thread, but someone is covering kaitana here for familes who had not registered their kids because they couldn't afford to. If the benefactor is reading this, I know from friends that it is much appreciated.
One family, in particular, has two acutely sick grandparents the parents are dealing with, in addition to their many needy children.
While Mommy camp can work with preschoolers and a strong Mommy, it doesn't work with school age boys and a Mommy stretched to the limits of her kochos.
Saying "she shouldn't have had parents or children" is callous.
No one is saying camp isn't beneficial for many kids, nor that kids should be kept home. But if you are going to be asking for tzedaka to send your kids to camp, the reason should be much better than "I'm a SAHM who doesn't want to deal with/entertain my kids."
Honestly, its this attitude that is absolutely destroying our communities. It covers everything - weddings, bar mitzvahs, houses, clothing, jewelry etc.
No one is saying camp isn't beneficial for many kids, nor that kids should be kept home. But if you are going to be asking for tzedaka to send your kids to camp, the reason should be much better than "I'm a SAHM who doesn't want to deal with/entertain my kids."
Honestly, its this attitude that is absolutely destroying our communities. It covers everything - weddings, bar mitzvahs, houses, clothing, jewelry etc.
Which is what really makes me ill.
I disagree. I've been to weddings where the people could well afford it but the ostentatiousness was really borderline disgusting (although beautiful and very enjoyable so I really wouldn't put it like that). I have never been to a wedding that poor people gave that I had the same reaction to. There's nothing wrong with making a memorable once in a lifetime event for your child, even when you can't afford it. Yes, perhaps they shouldn't be offering a choice of lamb or filet mignon but if they want to get gorgeous flowers or a beautiful bridal gown on someone else's charity? Why not? Isn't that what hachnasas kallah is all about? Making the bride happy and definitely not shaming her that she should feel pathetic by today's standards? Even in Europe years ago, the majority of weddings were at a certain standard even for the poorest. It was only the very wealthy who went beyond the community standard. I really don't think the poor were expected to have a different standard when it came to that day. Although I do agree with you once we get to Bugaboo territory.
No one is saying camp isn't beneficial for many kids, nor that kids should be kept home. But if you are going to be asking for tzedaka to send your kids to camp, the reason should be much better than "I'm a SAHM who doesn't want to deal with/entertain my kids."
Honestly, its this attitude that is absolutely destroying our communities. It covers everything - weddings, bar mitzvahs, houses, clothing, jewelry etc.
Which is what really makes me ill.
I disagree. I've been to weddings where the people could well afford it but the ostentatiousness was really borderline disgusting (although beautiful and very enjoyable so I really wouldn't put it like that). I have never been to a wedding that poor people gave that I had the same reaction to. There's nothing wrong with making a memorable once in a lifetime event for your child, even when you can't afford it. Yes, perhaps they shouldn't be offering a choice of lamb or filet mignon but if they want to get gorgeous flowers or a beautiful bridal gown on someone else's charity? Why not? Isn't that what hachnasas kallah is all about? Making the bride happy and definitely not shaming her that she should feel pathetic by today's standards? Even in Europe years ago, the majority of weddings were at a certain standard even for the poorest. It was only the very wealthy who went beyond the community standard. I really don't think the poor were expected to have a different standard when it came to that day. Although I do agree with you once we get to Bugaboo territory.
Im sorry but no, a hachnasat kallah is NOT for a kallah that wants a wedding that is more expensive than who ever is paying for it can afford. A hachnasat kallah is for a kallah that can not afford the basics. If I ever found out that I was giving money to a hachnasat kallah that had everything she needed at her wedding but she wanted more beautiful flowers or her dress was not the bomb of a dress, but she had one, I would be fuming. Such tzedakas are for people who truly NEED the help, not someone who has but WANTS more.
Wow, I am so in shock from reading this.
And just by the way, no a wedding does not have to be an over the time venue simcha. That is also where our generation has gone loony. Do what you can pay for, thats it, no more.
