As a mother who kept her children home for the last five summers (in Brooklyn) I can tell you not everyone can do it. Believe me it was extremely hard but I did get quality time with my children. I also work so I worked early morning 7am-11am or in the evening and spend the day runnig a program for the kids and going on trips. Last summer I sent one child to sleep away camp for July. (my husband said he does not care if we rob a bank.) We needed a break from our intense 14 year old and she desparately wanted to go to camp. Believe me it was a matter of sanity and money well spent. This summer she is working in a daycamp. This past the summer was brutually hot and my two younger sons spent the summer fighting. So after five years at home, my older two are working and younger three are going to day camp. I taking on another job and borrowed $800 which I will pay back iy"h over the summer. In my case, I feel day camp is no longer a luxury. Having saved thousands of $ the last few summers I still say no day camp is necessary.
I physical do not feel strong enough to work and run mommy day camp and the children need a rabbi to learn their gemorra and mishnayas with.
Having been on both sides of the fence, I do feel that daycamp is not always a luxury.
As a mother who kept her children home for the last five summers (in Brooklyn) I can tell you not everyone can do it. Believe me it was extremely hard but I did get quality time with my children. I also work so I worked early morning 7am-11am or in the evening and spend the day runnig a program for the kids and going on trips. Last summer I sent one child to sleep away camp for July. (my husband said he does not care if we rob a bank.) We needed a break from our intense 14 year old and she desparately wanted to go to camp. Believe me it was a matter of sanity and money well spent. This summer she is working in a daycamp. This past the summer was brutually hot and my two younger sons spent the summer fighting. So after five years at home, my older two are working and younger three are going to day camp. I taking on another job and borrowed $800 which I will pay back iy"h over the summer. In my case, I feel day camp is no longer a luxury. Having saved thousands of $ the last few summers I still say no day camp is necessary.
I physical do not feel strong enough to work and run mommy day camp and the children need a rabbi to learn their gemorra and mishnayas with.
Having been on both sides of the fence, I do feel that daycamp is not always a luxury.
As a mother who kept her children home for the last five summers (in Brooklyn) I can tell you not everyone can do it. Believe me it was extremely hard but I did get quality time with my children. I also work so I worked early morning 7am-11am or in the evening and spend the day runnig a program for the kids and going on trips. Last summer I sent one child to sleep away camp for July. (my husband said he does not care if we rob a bank.) We needed a break from our intense 14 year old and she desparately wanted to go to camp. Believe me it was a matter of sanity and money well spent. This summer she is working in a daycamp. This past the summer was brutually hot and my two younger sons spent the summer fighting. So after five years at home, my older two are working and younger three are going to day camp. I taking on another job and borrowed $800 which I will pay back iy"h over the summer. In my case, I feel day camp is no longer a luxury. Having saved thousands of $ the last few summers I still say no day camp is necessary.
I physical do not feel strong enough to work and run mommy day camp and the children need a rabbi to learn their gemorra and mishnayas with.
Having been on both sides of the fence, I do feel that daycamp is not always a luxury.
In my mother and grandmother's time it was not common to send your children out of the house to anything including playgroup until they went to kindergarten at age five which was free (or if yeshiva, then minimal fees).
How did they cope? And they often had three children at home, a baby, a three year old and a five year old who wasn't yet in school.
How did they have time to cook and clean and do laundry and spend time with their kids and teach them things and be ready to look nice when their husbands came home from work? How did they cope when they didn't have computers and videos and many didn't have tv and in my grandmothers' day it didn't exist?
How were they SAHMs with little kids home and the kids didn't sit around throwing garbage all day and being vilde chayes?
Their houses were pretty messy. I guess if a messy house doesnt bother you, fine. It bothers a lot of people.
freidasima wrote:
How did people survive before there were "camps"? Here in EY it's a relatively new phenomenon, only about 40 years old, What did everyone do before then?
'
My parent's generation did not stay home in the summer. EVERYONE, EVERYONE EVERYONE!!! went to the country for the entire summer. I was born on 11 Av, on a Shabbos; my father walked back from the hospital and did not meet ONE PERSON on teh street the entire way. He thougt he was in a ghost town. When I was 1 year old my mother went ot hte country for the ENTIRE SUMMER, with one baby who did not walk yet. absolutely no one stayed in the city.
ally wrote:
I am being serious. I thought the value of being a stay at home mum is because you believe that you should be with your children and not having others take care of them. If you don't want to be home with your children, why not work?
No I don't think housekeeping and errands is a full days work. Working mothers do these things too.
Because youre a stay at home mom to the kids who are not yet school aged. So that they dont have to go t o a babysitter at six weeks old. so that the kids come home from school to a homecooked dinner, a clean house, a mother who doesnt walk in togehter with them (or after them) without a drop of energy.
And YESSSSS, housekeeping + errands are a full day's work. It's an entire week's work.
The working mothers dont do those things too. When???? when, when everything is closed at night?
And maybe some people have fewer appointments and errands than others. I know that my to do list is just never empty. And it's not frivolous things. I never go shopping. I never go treat msyelf or just hang out. I'm always running, running, running. Wait til you read what I did this afternoon.
Does the job of a SAHM relate only to the current baby and housework? And other kids interfere with that job and so they go to daycare so the mother can work?
who said daycare? it's preschool. When a child is about 3 or 4 years old, they need to be with kids their age, they need structure and routine and age-appropriate activities. Not every mother can provide that or has te patience for that. I dont think a 20 month old shoujld be shuttled off to playgroup, but waht's wrong wit an almost-3-yr-old to go to a normal preschool? It's chinuch age already anyway, esp for boys.
"So if you can't handle your (own!) kids buzzing in your head, why are you a SAHM?
We have clarified that the point of this thread is not directed at extenuating circumstances with special needs children or mommies. It is directed at the average SAHM who claims not to be capable of handling her children. That is an oxymoron. Isn't that the definition of a SAHM's job?"
Again, not 24/7. That's not a SAHM, that's superwoman. SAHMs can be there more than moms who work outside the home, but have some respect for human limitations. Being realistic about needing some outside program for one's children does not mean she is no good at what she does and might as well give it up.
Most children also need more than Mommy 24/7. But a SAHM is there when the children come home, and her focus in on the home.
I work as much as I can without letting that take away my kochos for my family. I admire moms who can work outside the home and also have the same kochos. Maybe they're stronger. But why compare? All mothers and their children need what they need.
My point is that day camp (or sleepaway camp as the case may be, depending on the child) is a real need nowadays that doesn't disappear just because a mother doesn't focus her main energies on outside activities.
Thank you for promoting reality.
SAHM doesnt mean being a SAHM to all the kids, all the time. That's homeschooling. SAHM means the mother that can see all her kids off to school in the morning, take care of the home, the baby or babies, the errands, etc during school hours, and be home with a smile and a homecooked dinner when the troops come home. Why is SAHM'ing being confused here with homeschooling?
There's a difference between a parent kvetching about her kids (and what parent doesn't do that), or even kvetching about how difficult it is to be at home all day with the kids (and that's a given), and saying that there is a necessity for all children not to be with a parent all day.
And maybe that's the problem. I've heard that its difficult for the average mom to be at home with several kids all day, and I agree that it is. I've heard that camp is often a great experience for kids, and it is for many. But I haven't heard why its a necessity.
How is 9:30 - 3:00 "all day"? from 3- 7 pm there's plenty of time for mothers and kids to spend time together. If said kid has been home all day.... mom's nerves are shot by said 7 p.m.
And I'm not talking about 1 yr olds or 2 yr olds. I'm also not talking about 10 and 12 yr olds. I'm talking about the preschool and early elementary age, the age where kids cant yet entertain themselves productively and dont always know how to socialize... the 3-8 yr old set.
Most mothers dont complain about their 10 and 12 yr olds. They are mature enough not to make messes. They can have playdates. It's the younger set that are dependent on their mothers to be occupied. And it's not easy to do it day after day after day for 12 hours a day or more.
And to all of you who said that "it's so not a big deal to shlep your kids around town on buses, you dont have to come home a shmattta...."
here is the rundown of what I did since noon.
So all mornign the kids were ripping the place to shreds while I ws occupied on the phone with extremely important matters that could not wait until after the weekend. I made breakfast for them. I got them dressed. I tried to make a semblance of order here and failed.
At 1:00 I went to drop off my 3 yr old to therapy. I had planned from there to go register my 5 yr old at summer cheder and the after-summer cheder daycamp. Instead my mother let me know that my angel the weekly cleaning help was done at her house and was on her way to mine. So I had to drop all the plans and come home to let her in. I had my ONLY respite the entire day from the kids, about half hour, during which time I ate breakfast and..... fielded another few extremely important phone calls. I barely got to finish eating and I had to run to the dentist. I had to shlep my reluctant 5 yr old with me. He actually enjoyed playing in the waiting room.
I was done at the dentist by 3:15. Since I still hadnt gone to register my son for summer cheder and I already had to pick up my 3 yr old at 4:00, I first trekked back home and up 3 flights of stairs to check on the cleaning help. I nearly fainted when I walked through the door. THE HOUSE WAS SPOTLESS. SPOTLESS MY FRIENDS!!! No sign of the silver foil my 5 yr old had shredded in every corner of the house. There was fresh linen on the beds (wich I had removed & washed this morning). She was in the middle of cleaning the kitchen. The place was sparkling. I realized that if I came home at 4:00 with the kids... there would be no shred of this cleanliness left within half hour.....
So: I paid her (she wasnt done yet) and instructed her how to lock the door when she left. I hurried with my 5 yr old to the school office to register him for summer cheder. Meanwhile the therapist called that my son had a dirty diaper and she didnt have gloves on her. So I went back to therapy and changed his diaper. Then we hurried to the grocery store to order snacks for my almost 3 yr old's upsherin peklech. Then we hurried bback to pick him up from therapy. We met up with the therapist on the street and walked with her to her bus stop where I signed numerous sheets of paper for her. Then we stopped into anoter grocery store to get a snack for the kids. We were stopped by several acquaintances for a shmooz. We reached the new apartment and no, the painter hadnt shown up . My 5 yr old was thrilled to enjoy the porch and yard (yes, BH BH BH BH after 15 yrs in this DUMP we are finally moving to a larger apartment, with an elevator, and a porch and a backyard, BH BH BH BH) so we spent quite a lot of time there. there are no chairs there so I kept running in and out of the apartment checking on both kids. Then we walked to a neighborhood parkl where I was finally able to sit for the first time since 3:00. From there we walked to the pizza store for supper (there was no way to cook on a day like today!) where we wiated in a long line, and took the food home. ARrived home at 6:30 EXHAUSTED... my feet would no longer carry me. I simply sat down in someone's front gate and let the kids play whiel I waited for dh to come home from work and help me up those same 3 flights of stairs with all my packages and the kinderlech. I fell down on the couch and couldnt move. I was drained of every bit of energy.
I cant do this for 10 weeks. Just can't. I cant be a shmatta at the end of each day. I cant not cook supper for 10 weeks becuse the kids wont occupy themselves constructively for a long enough time for me to actually spend time in the kitchen. I cant go shopping for basics with them. as a matter of fact I even go grocery shopping only whent he little one is at therapy. He only wants to get out of the cart, run around the store and touc everything. It's impossible.
perhaps my situation is unique because my little one is special needs and my older one is wonderful and high maintenance. But I'm far from the only mother who feels they cant be a 24/7 SAHM for 2 1/2 months. They need a few ours in the middle of the day to DO STUFF... important stuff.
Anyway, I'm zonked, people!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for listening. (and I'm not complaining. I love my kids, love my life, love my role. JUst telling you facts.)
Last edited by Mama Bear on Thu, Jun 30 2011, 7:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
"So if you can't handle your (own!) kids buzzing in your head, why are you a SAHM?
We have clarified that the point of this thread is not directed at extenuating circumstances with special needs children or mommies. It is directed at the average SAHM who claims not to be capable of handling her children. That is an oxymoron. Isn't that the definition of a SAHM's job?"
Again, not 24/7. That's not a SAHM, that's superwoman. SAHMs can be there more than moms who work outside the home, but have some respect for human limitations. Being realistic about needing some outside program for one's children does not mean she is no good at what she does and might as well give it up.
Most children also need more than Mommy 24/7. But a SAHM is there when the children come home, and her focus in on the home.
I work as much as I can without letting that take away my kochos for my family. I admire moms who can work outside the home and also have the same kochos. Maybe they're stronger. But why compare? All mothers and their children need what they need.
My point is that day camp (or sleepaway camp as the case may be, depending on the child) is a real need nowadays that doesn't disappear just because a mother doesn't focus her main energies on outside activities.
Thank you for promoting reality.
SAHM doesnt mean being a SAHM to all the kids, all the time. That's homeschooling. SAHM means the mother that can see all her kids off to school in the morning, take care of the home, the baby or babies, the errands, etc during school hours, and be home with a smile and a homecooked dinner when the troops come home. Why is SAHM'ing being confused here with homeschooling?
Because there's no school in the summer.
Perhaps its definitional. To me, a stay at home mother is one who stays at home and sees her primary responsibility as looking after the kids. Now, kids may be at school part of the time, but that's still her primary responsibility. And she is a person who has usually made that choice because she believes that children's needs are best met when they are in the care of a parent most of the time. To me, that makes it a nonsequiter when someone says *I am a SAHM, but I believe that it is vital to my children that, outside of school hours, they be in the care of others.*
Perhaps you have more errands and appointments than the average person. I don't know. But I worked part time from the time DS was about 8 months old until he started school full time, and full time most of the time thereafter. I have household help once a week, and DH does most of the food shopping. Otherwise, I do all of the cooking (including challah for Shabbat), cleaning, appointments, etc. That includes years of SLT services for my DS, helping him with his homework every night, communicating with teachers, sometimes on a daily basis, shuttling him to and from various practices, and missing fewer than 5 or 6 games, total, in 8 years of basketball (including several years on 2 separate teams) and baseball, and several more of soccer, while sometimes working 70 or 80 hours a week. I will confess that I did not always watch him when he was in a track program. I'm not sure who you think else would do these things for working mothers.
Barbara I dont want this to come across a hurtful but it's very different when someone has only one child who is not a high needs toddler vs a large family where many children have many different needs.
I disagree with your definition of a SAHM; a SAHM is someone who stays home so that her chidlren who arent old enough to go to school yet, dont have to go to a babysitter. A child who is old enough to need/want/go to school..... well, belongs in school.
Perhaps because our daycamps here are in our schools with our teachers, and the boys have their same rebbes, I dont see it as 'school being out in teh summer'... it continues in the summer but there's less learning.
I think the "camp as a neccesity" thing is really just a symptom.
We all make choices in life. We choose locations, careers, spouses etc (and we don't get to choose all the curves). These choices have an affect on those around us. Kids are often affected because they get the least say.
Sometimes, parents have to make tough choices. Sometimes, kids lose out on great experiences. Sometimes they gain other things.
I think people just have different levels of stamina apparently. Your day, Mama Bear, seemed perfectly average to me. Are you an older mother perhaps? I'm only in my 30s so I guess I still have a lot of energy to keep me going. The stuff you did today, that's just the stuff that happens as a mother. There are errands. There are tantrums. There are messes. I don't know, I have a special needs kid, too, but I think he's a bit older than yours (he's 6) so maybe I'm just use to half a dozen therapies per week at this point.
In general, I think people's expectations of parenting is way off.
MB, you are moving house and planning an upsherin. And have a SN kid. 3 things that most people here are not dealing with simultaneously.
Well... that is true.
I'm *sure* there are people who are fully capable of, and enjoy, doing mommy camp for 10 weeks.
BUT:
Many people - myself included - are not daycamp counselor material. I am not creative. I cant come up with crafts. I am a disorganized person myself, I have a mild form of ADD. I get overwhelmed and dont function when there is no routine and things are just fluid. Many other mothers, even those without ADD or a kid with a special need or such, arent day-camp-counselor material. Especially for kids of different ages. Not everyone can do it.
I think people just have different levels of stamina apparently. Your day, Mama Bear, seemed perfectly average to me. Are you an older mother perhaps? I'm only in my 30s so I guess I still have a lot of energy to keep me going. The stuff you did today, that's just the stuff that happens as a mother. There are errands. There are tantrums. There are messes. I don't know, I have a special needs kid, too, but I think he's a bit older than yours (he's 6) so maybe I'm just use to half a dozen therapies per week at this point.
In general, I think people's expectations of parenting is way off.
Perhaps. A day like this wipes me out. It's too much for me to handle. Kudos to those who can.
btw - it's not half a dozen therapies per week. He has four different therapy schedules PER DAY!!!!! I had the hardest, hardest year of my life. IT's BH almost over. on tuesday he starts a special ed center. Drop off at 9:30 and pickup at 3:30! 've been waiting for this day like you wait for moshiach.
I am not creative. My kids love structure. They are the products of daycare...they've been going most of their lives.
So, I surf the web for ideas. I find ways to entertain them. And on days when I am so tired I can't function, I clean the basement LOL. THey never get down there, so it was exciting to spend a few hours down there. DS loved using the vacuum.
And yes, my house isn't spotless. I don't clean every nook and cranny. But my kids are happy, well taken care of and loved.
I asked my 3 year old if he likes daycare better or being home and he said being home. He really loves it.
I think people just have different levels of stamina apparently. Your day, Mama Bear, seemed perfectly average to me. Are you an older mother perhaps? I'm only in my 30s so I guess I still have a lot of energy to keep me going. The stuff you did today, that's just the stuff that happens as a mother. There are errands. There are tantrums. There are messes. I don't know, I have a special needs kid, too, but I think he's a bit older than yours (he's 6) so maybe I'm just use to half a dozen therapies per week at this point.
In general, I think people's expectations of parenting is way off.
I'm 24, have one toddler, and would be completely wiped out by Mama Bear's day. Some people have more energy than others. Running around with little kids is exhausting. If you aren't driving it is even worse.
You only mentioned one therapy on your list but I imagine 20 sessions a week is a lot. We never have had more than 2 a day. Which I am grateful for b/c they're not all dropoff so it's hard with the younger kids. It was so much easier during EI when they came to our apartment. Also, one of my tricks is to make snacktime for the younger ones coincide with their therapy waiting time.
Wel, think of how efficient you'll be next year with both kids in school. You'll be able to run all your errands in one morning. Your house will be spotless (and empty) all day!
Btw as a former working mom....errands are run on Sundays or on the way home from work. Occasionally at night when dh might be home you find the drugstore or supermarket that stays open a bit later. Not everyting closes at 8. As a SAHM you just spread out all the errands, cooking and housework ove the course of the day or week but it's obviously not any less to do if you work full time. The same errands have to be run, the same mouths have to be fed etc
You only mentioned one therapy on your list but I imagine 20 sessions a week is a lot. We never have had more than 2 a day. Which I am grateful for b/c they're not all dropoff so it's hard with the younger kids. It was so much easier during EI when they came to our apartment. Also, one of my tricks is to make snacktime for the younger ones coincide with their therapy waiting time.
Wel, think of how efficient you'll be next year with both kids in school. You'll be able to run all your errands in one morning. Your house will be spotless (and empty) all day!
Btw as a former working mom....errands are run on Sundays or on the way home from work. Occasionally at night when dh might be home you find the drugstore or supermarket that stays open a bit later. Not everyting closes at 8. As a SAHM you just spread out all the errands, cooking and housework ove the course of the day or week but it's obviously not any less to do if you work full time. The same errands have to be run, the same mouths have to be fed etc
Half of his sessions were home based, half were outside. Even the homebased ones were hard to juggle; it meant I had to be home at certain times, it meant running home in mid-errand for half an hour of speech and then running right back out. You cant IMAGINE what my year has been like. I havent spoken about it here. Now that's BH BH BH over I can finally exhale.
My typical wednesday would look something like this:
7:30 am - wake up
8:00 am - get older son ready for cheder bus.
8:45 am - down 3 flights of stairs for cheder bus. back up the 3 flights of stairs.
9:15 am - get toddler ready for therapy
9:45 am - walk toddler to therapy. down the stairs. with the stroller. with a 39 pound toddler.
10:00 am - rush to grocery to make weekly order.
10:55 am - go buy a sandwich finally.
11:05 am - a weekly appointment/project I have.
11:50 am - run a few small errands
12:15 pm - Pick up toddler from therapy. Drag him + stroller up 1 flight of stairs, drag just him up 2 more flights. (he can walk but refuses to come home, he wants to stay on the street! so after letting him tantrum for 10 minutes I finally drag him up...)
12:40 pm - I'm finally eating that sandwich. Why? Because Speech Therapist has arrived. So I can finally eat.
1:30 pm - time to change him as he has gotten dirty in the meantime, has spilled the rice from a bag in the freezer and is mushing it around and even eating it. He has pulled out 3 foxy-pops from teh freezer and ripped them open with his teeth and sucking on it. so he's blue and red all over and the floor is sticky. quick quick quick hurry.....
1:50 pm - Down the selfsame 3 flights of stairs... 2 without stroller, 1 with... to transport him to Occupational Therapy. While h's there I sometimes do another quick errands - fish store, butcher,and so forth.
2:30 pm - we're done with OT... I take him to the park, so he'll spend half an hour less wrecking the house....
3:00 pm - time to go home. and maybe eat a grapefruit. and maybe *start* thinking of supper... I'm so not in the mood of eating. Or cooking. I just want to conk on the couch.
3:45 pm - 5 1/ yr old home BH. Time to pay him his huge doses of attention. He's a real smart kid and needs lots of parental attention.
******* oh.... and at 5:45 pm it's time to take the 5 1/2 yr old to Occupational Therapy....
I've pushed off seeing an opthalmologist, dermatologist, and nutrionist all year because I hardly have any long enough slots for medical appointments. I have a scant 2 - 2 1/2 hours a day in which I can actually leave the neighborhood and not have to be back home within half an hour. Anyone who has seen me on the street this year has ALWAYS seen me running. I'm always late or almost late for my son's therapist... He had a total of 7 therapists this year!!!
****
and lest you think this beautiful beautiful child is ch'v horribly grotesque and malformed, here is a link to his recent pre-upsherin picture that my sister took in prospect park. I am not posting it here, just a link if you bother to click. He is KE"h beautiful inside and out... May HaShem bestow on him the little pieces that are missing for him to be fully functional....
His older brother isnt hard on the eyes either, BH. I may vent here, I may portray them as draining and high maintenance and diffiuclt and all that, but truthfully, it's the stress and hectic-ness of the past few weeks and months speaking. They are kE"H true nachas, each in their own unique way.
As for your second paragraph ... :)Are you kidding me... having them both out of the house for the day will finally give me the space to breathe.... after I move, iyh. The next month will be even more insane. and then Ill have the space I need desperately, physically too!
.....and I can finally address all my health issues, and enjoy my oldest nephews weddign followed by my youngest sisters wedding iyh and can maybe *think* about having another baby. I really hope so .
/mama bear's unusually frank post. I havent posted about my life in a long, long time.... and it's better that way. I'm going back into hibernation.
Last edited by Mama Bear on Thu, Jun 30 2011, 10:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
. My 5 yr old was thrilled to enjoy the porch and yard (yes, BH BH BH BH after 15 yrs in this DUMP we are finally moving to a larger apartment, with an elevator, and a porch and a backyard, BH BH BH BH) so we spent quite a lot of time there. there are no chairs there so I kept running in and out of the apartment checking on both kids. Then we walked to a neighborhood parkl where I was finally able to sit for the first time since 3:00. From there we walked to the pizza store for supper (there was no way to cook on a day like today!) where we wiated in a long line, and took the food home. ARrived home at 6:30 EXHAUSTED... my feet would no longer carry me. I simply sat down in someone's front gate and let the kids play whiel I waited for dh to come home from work and help me up those same 3 flights of stairs with all my packages and the kinderlech. I fell down on the couch and couldnt move. I was drained of every bit of energy.
