I am being serious. I thought the value of being a stay at home mum is because you believe that you should be with your children and not having others take care of them. If you don't want to be home with your children, why not work?
No I don't think housekeeping and errands is a full days work. Working mothers do these things too.
I don't see how it's different from what you described. You were home with one child, then not at home, then home with a second while the first was already in gan. That's more or less what people are talking about here - being home with the baby while the older kids are out of the house.
Housekeeping and errands doesn't have to be a full day's work, but I think it could be. I would guess that most working mothers like me - we do all those things, but not always 100% (my floor gets pretty sticky between one sponga and the next) and not always at the earliest opportunity (for instance, I could have been putting away the 12mo baby clothes a few months ago instead of this week).
Remember that a woman at home without kids wouldn't have the full 8-9 hours that a working mom is out to do those things, just the 5 or 5.5 hours that the kids are all out.
My kids are three years apart - so by the time I was home with the second one, the first one was in "kindergarten", not daycare so I wouldn't take him out of that to keep him home (even if it isn't gan chovah). That said, when I wasn't working and he was on holidays, he was home with me.
I also think there is a lot of value in family time, but like most things that have value its not easy (And believe me, I'm speaking to myself here). However, where I come from, summer vacation is 6 weeks and people usually structure it like Raisin described - 2 weeks camp, 2 weeks family holiday and 2 weeks doing 'nothing'. I can see that 10 weeks could get a little much.
Does the job of a SAHM relate only to the current baby and housework? And other kids interfere with that job and so they go to daycare so the mother can work?
"I also don't understand why people are choosing to be SAHMs if they don't like their children."
Oh, it's an in thing. We don't like our children at all. We're just looking for an excuse to be lazy.
Tova, I pay for my kids' school kaitana roughly what you pay for your backyard day camp. That price is still difficult for some Israeli families. Should their kids be stuck at home?
I am being serious. I thought the value of being a stay at home mum is because you believe that you should be with your children and not having others take care of them. If you don't want to be home with your children, why not work?
No I don't think housekeeping and errands is a full days work. Working mothers do these things too.
Why not work? I guess it is not always so easy! You make it seem as if it was the easiest thing to find a job nowadays..
So your alternative is send them out and what while they are out?????
However, where I come from, summer vacation is 6 weeks and people usually structure it like Raisin described - 2 weeks camp, 2 weeks family holiday and 2 weeks doing 'nothing'. I can see that 10 weeks could get a little much.
do most dh's get 2 weeks summer vacation?! mine gets his vacation time on chol hamoed; that's all.
Barbara said it well. That was the argument, and for what it is rational and fair to solicit zedoko funds and whether camp for most normal kids with SAHMs whose parents can't afford to sent them to camp is in that category.
Shabbat when I say yishuv I don't mean "hitmachalut" which is how the word is used here. I mean "makom yishuv" - dwelling place - like towns. No there really isn't a single town in EY that doesn't have some kind of matnas except arab villages and actually bedouin yishuvim. And there isn't a single matnas that doesn't have at least one child-related activity this summer for a very low price or for free.
Baduk.
But you are right, hitnachaluyot, which aren't towns or dwelling places within the green line, don't always have matnasim. On the other hand they also don't necessary have a situation where kids can't spend almost all their time doing things out of doors unlike in the cities.
Barbara said it well. That was the argument, and for what it is rational and fair to solicit zedoko funds and whether camp for most normal kids with SAHMs whose parents can't afford to sent them to camp is in that category.
Shabbat when I say yishuv I don't mean "hitmachalut" which is how the word is used here. I mean "makom yishuv" - dwelling place - like towns. No there really isn't a single town in EY that doesn't have some kind of matnas except arab villages and actually bedouin yishuvim. And there isn't a single matnas that doesn't have at least one child-related activity this summer for a very low price or for free.
Baduk.
But you are right, hitnachaluyot, which aren't towns or dwelling places within the green line, don't always have matnasim. On the other hand they also don't necessary have a situation where kids can't spend almost all their time doing things out of doors unlike in the cities.
Barbara said it well. That was the argument, and for what it is rational and fair to solicit zedoko funds and whether camp for most normal kids with SAHMs whose parents can't afford to sent them to camp is in that category.
Shabbat when I say yishuv I don't mean "hitmachalut" which is how the word is used here. I mean "makom yishuv" - dwelling place - like towns. No there really isn't a single town in EY that doesn't have some kind of matnas except arab villages and actually bedouin yishuvim. And there isn't a single matnas that doesn't have at least one child-related activity this summer for a very low price or for free.
Baduk.
But you are right, hitnachaluyot, which aren't towns or dwelling places within the green line, don't always have matnasim. On the other hand they also don't necessary have a situation where kids can't spend almost all their time doing things out of doors unlike in the cities.
ah, got it and very true, the outdoors is great
FTR, NYC runs summer camps for $500 for the summer, in many parks throughout the city. It also has Playground Associate Programs, where park personnel run small programs, and tons of other programs. There are other low cost programs available, but I don't know where or when. Eg, DS once participated in a fabulous running program with NYC Road Runners. It was several hours every Sunday for 3 or 4 months, and cost about $50. So not only Israel runs programs.
Yeah, and not to continue the mommy wars, but I know working moms who keep their year-round babysitters during the summer too.
Why wouldn't the working mom keep her babysitter year-round? The working mom works in the summer too.
Isramom8 wrote:
Working moms get to go to work. SAHMs have their kids buzzing in their heads 24/7 during vacations, if they aren't in camp.
That's right. So if you can't handle your (own!) kids buzzing in your head, why are you a SAHM?
We have clarified that the point of this thread is not directed at extenuating circumstances with special needs children or mommies. It is directed at the average SAHM who claims not to be capable of handling her children. That is an oxymoron. Isn't that the definition of a SAHM's job?
For the record, some are. Some women, and I won't discuss their background, count on their mothers or MILs to cook their dinners as a newlywed (to say nothing of G'fabid making Pesach until they are married at least ten years), take care of their kids after childbirth for weeks at a time, and bring them their homemade challah every week. Some women have their husbands do the grocery shopping, for Heaven's sake !!!
Hey - I work full time, always have, and I work very hard. I do everything myself at home. Without cleaning help, my apt always looks nice and my freezer is always packed with food, just in case. I have had manicures a handful of times, if you will excuse the pun, but even when I don't, I take care that I should look nice. I'm up early and literally work until I can't keep my eyes open anymore. I set my sheitals myself most of the time. I exercise and I make sure we hae a variety of heatlhy foods at home. And I don't make a big deal of it. We do what we need to.
Where on earth do you encounter all these horrible women? Yes, I can think of a handful of my acquaintance who fully meet your description, and yes, I find them contemptible.
That said, the entitled princesses are a pretty small minority. And they are a super-small minority here on imamother, where most of the women seem relatively appreciative of whatever blessings they receive from family, etc.
In many cases, they are very, very young, and they will improve as they mature. Granted, it's annoying, but guess what? I was once immature, too. And while I'm not going to make specific accusations, I'm willing to be that many older imamothers were once immature, too. In fact, I'd be pretty concerned about someone who claims she hasn't changed her outlook between the ages of 18 and 50! Perhaps our immaturity didn't express itself in the kind of entitlement being described here, but I think we're kidding ourselves if we claim we didn't do/say/think anything equally obnoxious.
What I don't understand is why there seems to be so much bitterness -- posters are seeming to literally compete to describe how much harder they have it than these alleged princesses. Yes, I agree: it is unfair that some people have it easier in life and become accustomed to those standards. But this is hardly big news, and camp is only a minute part of it.
Appearing to be bitter -- whether or not one believes she is -- is unattractive. Nobody is forcing anyone to contribute money to fund the camping adventures of some layabout princess. If you're unhappy with tzeddakah funds being used to support a luxurious lifestyle for the princess brigade, speak with your rav/Rebbe/rosh yeshiva to contribute your perspective.
Being happy with one's portion in a consumerist society is tough! But why not take the graceful solution and at least pretend to be unconcerned about what others have, want, or expect? We can disapprove quietly of excessive princess-ness without giving the impression that we're secretly envious. We may not feel any better, but we'll look a lot classier!
"So if you can't handle your (own!) kids buzzing in your head, why are you a SAHM?
We have clarified that the point of this thread is not directed at extenuating circumstances with special needs children or mommies. It is directed at the average SAHM who claims not to be capable of handling her children. That is an oxymoron. Isn't that the definition of a SAHM's job?"
Again, not 24/7. That's not a SAHM, that's superwoman. SAHMs can be there more than moms who work outside the home, but have some respect for human limitations. Being realistic about needing some outside program for one's children does not mean she is no good at what she does and might as well give it up.
Most children also need more than Mommy 24/7. But a SAHM is there when the children come home, and her focus in on the home.
I work as much as I can without letting that take away my kochos for my family. I admire moms who can work outside the home and also have the same kochos. Maybe they're stronger. But why compare? All mothers and their children need what they need.
My point is that day camp (or sleepaway camp as the case may be, depending on the child) is a real need nowadays that doesn't disappear just because a mother doesn't focus her main energies on outside activities.
What I don't understand is why there seems to be so much bitterness -- posters are seeming to literally compete to describe how much harder they have it than these alleged princesses. Yes, I agree: it is unfair that some people have it easier in life and become accustomed to those standards. But this is hardly big news, and camp is only a minute part of it.
There is ALWAYS this bitterness in the money threads. I'm sorry I read this one.
We've long passed the "you're too frum" or "you're not frum enough" arguments. It's all changed to: "you don't pay as much money as I do, you spoiled bratty princess."
While I'm nowhere near the age of some of the imamothers in this thread, I have to say it's plain immaturity. If someone needs help, either help them or don't help them, but whatever you do, do it gracefully!
There is ALWAYS this bitterness in the money threads.
I guess what always surprises me is not the bitterness -- I think we all succumb to that occasionally -- but how many people are seemingly unembarrassed to let their bitterness show in a semi-public setting.
It's kind of like picking your nose: it's not that I don't understand the temptation -- I just wouldn't want to be caught doing it in public.
I still don't get it. It seems like there are some women who want to be SAHMs, but only as long as they have the ability to send their kids out as they feel fit. That's great if you can afford it. Honestly, though, if you feel that you can't have all your kids home with you, and you can't afford to send them out either, GET A JOB. Being a SAHM is not working out for you. I don't get the right to stay home and still ask for tzedaka so you can be home with only some and not others. Or so you can get your housekeeping done in peace.
My nanny does not cook dinner, she does not do laundry (though she folds), she does not pay bills or book appts or go to those appts with or without the kids, she does not take the car for an oil change or get gas, she does not do my grocery shopping or unpacking, she does not stay on top of people's wardrobes or diaper supplies, she does not check if shoes fit and take the kids for new ones, she does not cook meals for kimpeturins, she does not make shabbos, she does not bathe the baby or do bedtime, she does not buy gifts or attend simchas. She takes care of my child while I work to pay her salary and our health insurance and cover whatever other expenses I can squeeze out of my paycheck. She cleans the floors and the bathrooms and folds laundry and irons.
But I am still the Mommy, and the akeres habayis. Would I love to be all that plus a SAHM? Yes. But I can't afford it, so off to work I go.
Does the job of a SAHM relate only to the current baby and housework? And other kids interfere with that job and so they go to daycare so the mother can work?
Different women have different reasons for being home. Some will stay home with a baby for the baby's sake, but wouldn't have been home if it weren't for the baby (for instance, I know of someone who took a year off after each child was born). Some are home for all their kids in general, including those in school (so they can be there when the kids get home, or on sick days, or vacation, etc, and will have time and energy to devote to them in the afternoon). To each their own.
Let's say a particular woman decides that she can only be a good SAHM to two kids at once, does that make her role as SAHM to those two kids less valuable? I don't understand it personally - I find my kids get easier to care for (and to be honest, much more fun to talk to) as they get older, and I davka like summer vacation - but it seems that, if I think it's nice that a woman with 2 kids is staying home with a toddler and baby, it makes sense that it would also be nice if a woman with 5 kids is staying home with a toddler and baby, even if she can't handle all five at once.
"So if you can't handle your (own!) kids buzzing in your head, why are you a SAHM?
We have clarified that the point of this thread is not directed at extenuating circumstances with special needs children or mommies. It is directed at the average SAHM who claims not to be capable of handling her children. That is an oxymoron. Isn't that the definition of a SAHM's job?"
Again, not 24/7. That's not a SAHM, that's superwoman. SAHMs can be there more than moms who work outside the home, but have some respect for human limitations. Being realistic about needing some outside program for one's children does not mean she is no good at what she does and might as well give it up.
Most children also need more than Mommy 24/7. But a SAHM is there when the children come home, and her focus in on the home.
I work as much as I can without letting that take away my kochos for my family. I admire moms who can work outside the home and also have the same kochos. Maybe they're stronger. But why compare? All mothers and their children need what they need.
My point is that day camp (or sleepaway camp as the case may be, depending on the child) is a real need nowadays that doesn't disappear just because a mother doesn't focus her main energies on outside activities.
But I am still the Mommy, and the akeres habayis. Would I love to be all that plus a SAHM? Yes. But I can't afford it, so off to work I go.
Yup, it's human nature: we would all love to be SAHMs who breeze into a fabulous, exciting job when the kids get on our nerves or we crave a little adult company, and then sashay home again when we are ready to spend time with our kids. Even if the grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence, it's a different color of green.
Asking a SAHM to never kvetch about her kids is like asking a WOHM or a WAHM to never complain about her job. Most of us with outside jobs are plenty ready to kvetch -- surely we can let the SAHMs do the same!
But I am still the Mommy, and the akeres habayis. Would I love to be all that plus a SAHM? Yes. But I can't afford it, so off to work I go.
Yup, it's human nature: we would all love to be SAHMs who breeze into a fabulous, exciting job when the kids get on our nerves or we crave a little adult company, and then sashay home again when we are ready to spend time with our kids. Even if the grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence, it's a different color of green.
Asking a SAHM to never kvetch about her kids is like asking a WOHM or a WAHM to never complain about her job. Most of us with outside jobs are plenty ready to kvetch -- surely we can let the SAHMs do the same!
Absolutely. I'm first in line to cry about how I wish I could be there for my child more, or other woes that come along with being a working mom. I also admire SAHMs tremendously for their never-ending work in raising their children full time. I totally understand the kvetching. I don't understand the "I want to be a SAHM but I can't handle all my kids so if I couldn't afford to send them out I would ask for others to pay for it." And I believe that most SAHMs are not of this attitude, but apparently a select group are.
However, where I come from, summer vacation is 6 weeks and people usually structure it like Raisin described - 2 weeks camp, 2 weeks family holiday and 2 weeks doing 'nothing'. I can see that 10 weeks could get a little much.
do most dh's get 2 weeks summer vacation?! mine gets his vacation time on chol hamoed; that's all.
I don't know about other families, although most english families do take 2 weeks vacation in the summer, maybe in england vacation time is more generous then in the states? My parents were teachers/academics so summertime was "off"; ie they still had work to do but it could be done from home.
My dh has a job that requires him to work every.single.shabbos.and.every.single.yom.tov so yes, we can take off 2 weeks each summer, and 2 weeks another time.
BTW I have noticed that the israeli mothers in my community are much more likely to send a 1 or 2 year old to daycare or playgroup then the local mothers. They are not really used to the concept that kids are happy at home. In israel they had jobs but here they generally do not. So to their mind every child over the age of about 1 belongs in a group setting. Since everyone in Israel sends their baby to a playgroup or sitter of course the ones who do not go are missing out!
But I am still the Mommy, and the akeres habayis. Would I love to be all that plus a SAHM? Yes. But I can't afford it, so off to work I go.
Yup, it's human nature: we would all love to be SAHMs who breeze into a fabulous, exciting job when the kids get on our nerves or we crave a little adult company, and then sashay home again when we are ready to spend time with our kids. Even if the grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence, it's a different color of green.
Asking a SAHM to never kvetch about her kids is like asking a WOHM or a WAHM to never complain about her job. Most of us with outside jobs are plenty ready to kvetch -- surely we can let the SAHMs do the same!
There's a difference between a parent kvetching about her kids (and what parent doesn't do that), or even kvetching about how difficult it is to be at home all day with the kids (and that's a given), and saying that there is a necessity for all children not to be with a parent all day.
And maybe that's the problem. I've heard that its difficult for the average mom to be at home with several kids all day, and I agree that it is. I've heard that camp is often a great experience for kids, and it is for many. But I haven't heard why its a necessity.
Of course I love my daughter. That's not the same thing as never wanting a break, and it ignores the fact that SHE is happier with that break too. I'm not looking to send her to sleepaway camp for all 11 weeks. But to get her out of the house for part of the day for part of the summer--not so unrealistic. It doesn't mean I'm not happy to spend the rest of my time with her.
As for past generations... I remember being allowed to run around the neighborhood unsupervised. My mother remembers being allowed to go even further. I know people my parents' age who remember being turfed out of the house after breakfast and told not to come home till lunch--and again from lunch to dinner. That's not allowed today, and it's not all a bad thing (I do know people who could tell you some hair raising stories of what happened to them as unsupervised children). Mothers weren't spending all their time doing craft projects and taking the kids out.
I agree completely, but I hear the drumbeat of "camp is a necessity" far, far more often from rabbonim, ravs, Rebbes, principals, and other experts in chinuch (both real and soi-disant) than I hear it from SAHMs or even mothers with outside jobs.
Given the status of the people who extol the importance of camp, I hardly think it's fair to blame women for buying into the idea, even partially, that camp is a necessity.
And that's actually what bothers me most about the discussion; it appears to me that women are simply an easier target on which to vent aggravation or disapproval over the whole system. After all, no one is going to say, "Well, I don't care if your rav said that camp was a necessity for everyone. He's wrong!" So instead, we play the "princess" card!
Like many de facto customs in the frum world, the summer camp issue definitely bears closer examination, especially when so many people are financially strapped. But accusing people of a sense of entitlement seems unfair when their "entitlement" is a result of having been given that advice by those in their community with daas Torah.
