Why is a mothers physical comfort considered a necessity, yet her emotional/mental comfort is considered a luxury?
But that's the whole point. WHY do people think a normal, healthy SAHM mother's emotional well-being is on the line if she has to LOOK AFTER HER OWN CHILDREN for a few weeks???
You know, I'm wondering if some women here don't have it backwards. If you are a SAHM all year and you have burn out by the summer, to the point where you have to send your own children to an orphanage aka sleepaway camp because you can't bear to have them around, then maybe you just shouldn't be a SAHM at all. Work during the year in a chinuch-related job so you'll get the summer off, and then you'll enjoy being with your children and not be burnt out - not when they're in school, but when they really need you when they're at home.
It's not burn out. During the year your kids go to school for a few hours! Not only does it get them out of the house and keep them occupied, but it provides a structured life for the whole family.
When you base your life on a certain pattern, and that changes to NO outside activities for the kids, it's very challenging. The mother still has to do everything she does when the kids are in school. only, they're hanging around whining, arguing and hot.
It's a tired myth to believe that SAHMs do nothing all day. Women who work outside their homes generally have workers who do what the typical SAHM does all day by herself. Summer vacation interferes with the sane schedule the SAHM has created.
Wait, did I miss the inter-mom memo telling me that someone else is supposed to be doing the laundry, cooking, washing up, picking up the toys, and general cleaning because I'm out of the house 10 hours a day? Gee whiz. Why am I always the one left out? Do I have any offers? Anyone want to do all that for me? Didn't think so. I guess I'll just keep on truckin' then. Funny, the only thing I am somehow not finding time for as a working mom is my kids. (And no, I'm not off during the summer.)
I'm with you Marion.Shopping too. Only it's only 9 hours a day here. Any offers?
My kids' schools never had toilet paper you always had to bring your own. No big deal. Everyone got a roll to take in their backpack.
Grin, I don't buy the yeridat hadorot one bit. I don't think I'm any weaker than my mother or my grandmother, nor were they weaker than their foremothers. I think we may be more spoiled but take away the surroundings and see how "unspoiled" one becomes and fast. It's all what one is used to but that doesn't make us weak. Davka we are a very strong generation. We have good and nutritious and ample food. We have good medication available to most of us if necessary. We have stamina to use exercise bicycles, run on treadmills, join marathons, weight lift for our health.
We are resourceful. Lots of us know how to make bread from scratch like our great grandmothers did, while our mothers often did not. Lots of us like Seraph know how to use natural ingredients to clean our homes, our clothes, and how to live in peace with our surroundings. Lots of us know how to pinch pennies, although we don't do it on a full time basis many of us know how to sew our own clothes, how to knit and crochet sweaters, how to make rag rugs.
But not having to "rough it" doesn't mean yeridat hadorot. Some of us have husbands who commute abroad to their jobs coming home once a month, and did even in the time when there was no internet and we didnt have instant communication with them, similar to our great gradmothers whose husbands would be away for months until they came home.
We aren't really any different than they were. They had fewer creature comforts compared to us but the problems they faced were no different. War, finding spouses, worry about children, giving their family food, caring for elderly parents, educating their children, finding them shidduchim, keeping the house clean, cleaning clothing, davening, some wanted an education, some even got education, even in the sixteenth century....even women.
Seraph, chapeau! Kudos! Kol hakavod! You said it quite right although I have a feeling that some of the posters who were talking about four kids under six or five under seven would consider your situation gan eden...
Oh I don't doubt that my kids aren't the biggest vilde chayes in the world; obviously some kids are even more of a challenge to handle. Part of the reason they're less of a challenge is because I dont give them structure 24/7 and they learn how to entertain themselves, something kids in school all year and camp all summer don't really learn how to do...
My point really was, you can make anything into a bigger deal than it really is. But whats the point?
have you guys thought about investing into cell phones, so that your dh wouldn't have to wake you up to tell you important stuff before he leaves?
We have cell phones. It was just something he needed me to know the second I got up in the AM, and since he didnt know when that would be, he told me before he left.
Being a SAHM doesn't mean you think that all of your children belong home for all of the day.
Shalhevet, stay at home lady? I think that if you have a big family or young kids there's probably plenty to do even if all the kids are out - get the kids out by 8 or so and then you have until what, 1:30? Do the dishes and the laundry, make the beds, mop a floor, clean a bathroom, run an errand, make lunch and the time will be all gone. So yeah, there are stay-at-home-moms and stay-at-home-ladies, but I think the right term here would be "housewife." The people here talking about how they need the older kids out, are talking about getting them out so they can do things like cook dinner and nurse the baby.
Not arguing that it's necessary, but it's not exactly the high life either.
In my mother and grandmother's time it was not common to send your children out of the house to anything including playgroup until they went to kindergarten at age five which was free (or if yeshiva, then minimal fees).
How did they cope? And they often had three children at home, a baby, a three year old and a five year old who wasn't yet in school.
How did they have time to cook and clean and do laundry and spend time with their kids and teach them things and be ready to look nice when their husbands came home from work? How did they cope when they didn't have computers and videos and many didn't have tv and in my grandmothers' day it didn't exist?
How were they SAHMs with little kids home and the kids didn't sit around throwing garbage all day and being vilde chayes?
I think the right term here would be "akeres habayis". Where does it say that she has to keel over from over doing? Part of the hishtadlus should be from the mom, and part from the camps. We should all be in this together - we are one Klal.
FS, kids used to be a lot less supervised. That doesn't work today.
Last edited by Isramom8 on Thu, Jun 30 2011, 11:39 am; edited 1 time in total
In my mother and grandmother's time it was not common to send your children out of the house to anything including playgroup until they went to kindergarten at age five which was free (or if yeshiva, then minimal fees).
How did they cope? And they often had three children at home, a baby, a three year old and a five year old who wasn't yet in school.
How did they have time to cook and clean and do laundry and spend time with their kids and teach them things and be ready to look nice when their husbands came home from work? How did they cope when they didn't have computers and videos and many didn't have tv and in my grandmothers' day it didn't exist?
How were they SAHMs with little kids home and the kids didn't sit around throwing garbage all day and being vilde chayes?
I'm sorry that you disagree with me, but form what I've heard, kids just weren't as hyper-active and demanding back then. why? tell me your ideas.
How did people survive before there were "camps"? Here in EY it's a relatively new phenomenon, only about 40 years old, What did everyone do before then?
Shalhevet, stay at home lady? I think that if you have a big family or young kids there's probably plenty to do even if all the kids are out - get the kids out by 8 or so and then you have until what, 1:30? Do the dishes and the laundry, make the beds, mop a floor, clean a bathroom, run an errand, make lunch and the time will be all gone. So yeah, there are stay-at-home-moms and stay-at-home-ladies, but I think the right term here would be "housewife." The people here talking about how they need the older kids out, are talking about getting them out so they can do things like cook dinner and nurse the baby.
Not arguing that it's necessary, but it's not exactly the high life either.
You didn't read what I wrote. These women have enough money for help too. Believe me, they are not mopping their floors or cleaning the bathroom. I don't think they really exist much in Israel. But in England they exist. In droves as FS would say.
How did people survive before there were "camps"? Here in EY it's a relatively new phenomenon, only about 40 years old, What did everyone do before then?
Who cares? We aren't living then, and G-d knows why. Live in the present. Deal with reality.
Last edited by Isramom8 on Thu, Jun 30 2011, 11:41 am; edited 1 time in total
In my mother and grandmother's time it was not common to send your children out of the house to anything including playgroup until they went to kindergarten at age five which was free (or if yeshiva, then minimal fees).
How did they cope? And they often had three children at home, a baby, a three year old and a five year old who wasn't yet in school.
How did they have time to cook and clean and do laundry and spend time with their kids and teach them things and be ready to look nice when their husbands came home from work? How did they cope when they didn't have computers and videos and many didn't have tv and in my grandmothers' day it didn't exist?
How were they SAHMs with little kids home and the kids didn't sit around throwing garbage all day and being vilde chayes?
I'm sorry that you disagree with me, but form what I've heard, kids just weren't as hyper-active and demanding back then. why? tell me your ideas.
Demanding = spoilt.
Hyperactive = channel their energy to positive things.
"I also don't understand why people are choosing to be SAHMs if they don't like their children."
Oh, it's an in thing. We don't like our children at all. We're just looking for an excuse to be lazy.
Tova, I pay for my kids' school kaitana roughly what you pay for your backyard day camp. That price is still difficult for some Israeli families. Should their kids be stuck at home?
I am being serious. I thought the value of being a stay at home mum is because you believe that you should be with your children and not having others take care of them. If you don't want to be home with your children, why not work?
No I don't think housekeeping and errands is a full days work. Working mothers do these things too.
that long ago, "fun" was an unknown phenomena, except to the very rich - this included most kids. they either helped out at home or worked, peddling and such.
actually, summer vacation didn't exist long ago - it was invented so that farm children could help out during the harvest season.
My individual, personal answer is that while being a SAHM is my priority, I squeeze in work here and there, as I am able. B"H I am able to live this way. Some years I worked outside or inside my home part time, and some years I didn't.
I've completed quite a bit of computer work while following this thread! I just keep checking back.
Last edited by Isramom8 on Thu, Jun 30 2011, 11:46 am; edited 1 time in total
I grew up in suburbia, with a stay at home mom and a big house and yard. If we had camp in the summer, it was a week of Girl Scout day camp, that's all. My mom watched us most of the summer. We went to the pool and the library and we did errands. We fought a lot. And it wasn't that productive. When we got older, there was Recreation at school. Not air conditioned and not that much fun either. At some point I took summer classes and babysat and got other paid work.
I liked day camp for my kids. I wasn't crazy about overnight camp for a variety of reasons. Yes, it all cost money. But a child should be busy during the day - learning and growing. Not all mothers have the tevah to deal with that - does that mean no one should have kids? Come on.
Next thing you know, we'll be discussing how a sheital isn't necessary. And meat duirng the week. And the cost of kallah jewelry.
Grin I think that there are a lot of kids who aren't hyper active and demanding today as well, it's all what one gets them used to from an early age. I see my grandson and I see how my daughter is bringing him up. She made a conscious decision that he is her main priority other than her husband. The house can go to hell, her mother in law is so sick of it that as a present she gave her a cleaning woman one morning a week twice a month. The food can go to hell, her son is happy with lechem shachor and white cheese and eggs and some fish or whatever, he doesn't get sweets. But as she works and studies she has him in gan (he is 2.5) and when he gets home until he goes to sleep at nine and in the morning from five when he gets up until he goes to gan at eight, he is everything. The center of her life. He calls the shots and she runs herself ragged.
I've spoken to her about this and she admits its because her husband is never home. He's a resident, he's always at the hospital and when he is home he is sleeping. And so to keep their son quiet so that daddy can sleep before he goes back for toranut, he is the center of whatever he wants to do.
but I've seen her put limits. He can not be fresh. He can not hit, and he can not throw things. On those topics she is non negotiable. She doesn't care about the house, he can paint on the walls with crayons, but if he throws a crayon it will be confiscated.
I have other friends with young children and I see the kids active but not hyperactive. Part of it is teaching them limits from age zero and sticking to them. Part of it is a lifestyle where a child's wishes aren't the center of life but the child has to blend in with the household rythm and the household needs. That doesn't mean that the child's needs are ignored, sometimes the child's needs become the household needs, but not always.
You have to do things which this generation doesn't like to do. Not to be your child's friend but their mother. To draw red lines. Not to sweat small things but to decide that decency, good manners, and derekh eretz are not "small things" and to punish the least little thing in those categories from age zero to teach children what can and can't be done.
And it doesn't castrate the kids. Just today I heard one of my kids having a phone conversation with my mother that was unbelievable. She was mocking her to her face and my mother actually took it from her and mocked her back! I would have cut off my tongue to speak like that to my mother. But then my child reminded me that I probably spoke like that to my own grandmother (I did) and she spoke back to me like that (she did) and that her children will probably speak to me like that (halevai) although she would cut off her tongue before she would ever talk to me like that.
I am just trying to point out, that for a typical family living in Brooklyn on a high floor with no elevator, no porch and no backyard, having the entire family home is absolutely not feasible.
Everyone else who is NOT from Brooklyn and does NOT have these living arrangements, your opinion does not count, and you dont understand just what it's like.
MOving to the suburbs is not an option, for a variety of reasons.
So, this thread doesnt have to be about me, and you dont need to give me ideas, because I, BH, am not having a problem sending my kids to day camp. It's free for both of them.
I am just trying to point out that it is *NOT*, and I repeat, *NOT* a luxury for a city family with no car, no elevator, no outdoors, and a small apartment. It just simply is not.
100 million gazillion patrillion percent understood. It's not a luxury, under those circumstances, to need to have the kids out of the house and at camp. HOWEVER, you (not you, but *you*) chose this type of life. *You* had the luxury to make this choice because you live a free life in a free country. Should *I* have to fund your child if you cannot? That is what it's all about. Zehu. Nothing more. *You* make your choices, live with them, whatever the results may be. *You* wanna live in a 4th floor stinky apartment in a city hotter than hell? It's a free country, do it. *You* wanna have a bunch of kids and be a SAHM? Do it. *You* want *ME* to fund *YOUR* children after *YOU* make those choices? Or *you* want *me* to pick up the pieces after *you* pay for your "necessity" because you are boxed into a tight spot, when you don't have money for food/tution/weddings? Not on your life! I made choices as well. That's the point. We make our choices and have to live with them.
I erased the rest of your post because there is no point going over it. If you want my opinion, you will ask for it, right?
Last edited by Tamiri on Thu, Jun 30 2011, 11:49 am; edited 1 time in total
In my mother and grandmother's time it was not common to send your children out of the house to anything including playgroup until they went to kindergarten at age five which was free (or if yeshiva, then minimal fees).
How did they cope? And they often had three children at home, a baby, a three year old and a five year old who wasn't yet in school.
How did they have time to cook and clean and do laundry and spend time with their kids and teach them things and be ready to look nice when their husbands came home from work? How did they cope when they didn't have computers and videos and many didn't have tv and in my grandmothers' day it didn't exist?
How were they SAHMs with little kids home and the kids didn't sit around throwing garbage all day and being vilde chayes?
I'm sorry that you disagree with me, but form what I've heard, kids just weren't as hyper-active and demanding back then. why? tell me your ideas.
Demanding = spoilt.
Hyperactive = channel their energy to positive things.
yes, you can control hyperactivity by channeling their energy to positive things, but that takes loads of input by the mother - believe me, BTDT plenty! and she doesn't get much else done at the same time.
Demanding = spoiled: could be - look at what the street and the stores now have to offer, compared with then. But then, we're all spoiled compared to then - not just the kids.
"Grin I think that there are a lot of kids who aren't hyper active and demanding today as well, it's all what one gets them used to from an early age."
I have enough kids to know this is false. Kids with special needs need even more structure!
(And no, I'm not off during the summer.)
