Wow Tamiri, you are saying it all.
Illness? Did I miss something? Refuah shleima
Seraph, you are throwing up every morning? Do I wish you a refuah shleima or something else? Feel good, it passes no matter what it comes from. No one throws up every morning for the rest of their lives.
Ladies I am with tamiri. You should have seen us when we were younger. Look at us today, that's where you are going to be tomorrow. I remember a hospital room in July so hot in maternity with twelve count them twelve other women in that room, I asked dh to buy me a fan, I couldn't cope with the heat. I stil have this tiny sit on a nighttable fan that he got me, and I don't wish it on anyone but you survive it. Sure if you have a choice use the a/c but what if you don't? Will you plots?
Yes it really does sound like stay at home women only when their kids aren't home or at most they are only home with a baby. Wow...where did that come from? Who taught them to be like that? My grandmother lived in the bronx and would shlep everyone by subway to coney island in the summer during the 1930s to be cool. My grandfather was out of a job half of the time during the depression and no one could dream about camp or bungalo or kochalein in the country. And no one said that one should get zedoko to be able to go.
Working moms who keep their babysitters IF THEY CAN AFFORD THEM is not a problem. Once again, we are talking about affording.
Isramom you obviously see camp as a necessity for all kids. Even if it means using public zedoko funds for it which could be used let's say to give poor families food or for hachnosas kallo for orphans....Maybe you are just burned out and tired? Maybe that's what eight kids do to you? Do you think you would feel that way if you had five? Or three? I'm asking seriously because you were the one who is espousing having very large families for the good of "klal yisroel"...but even if having those kids and taking care of them is running the mother ragged? for those who cope fine, great, but for those who don't? I don't get it...
Why is a mothers physical comfort considered a necessity, yet her emotional/mental comfort is considered a luxury?
But that's the whole point. WHY do people think a normal, healthy SAHM mother's emotional well-being is on the line if she has to LOOK AFTER HER OWN CHILDREN for a few weeks???
You know, I'm wondering if some women here don't have it backwards. If you are a SAHM all year and you have burn out by the summer, to the point where you have to send your own children to an orphanage aka sleepaway camp because you can't bear to have them around, then maybe you just shouldn't be a SAHM at all. Work during the year in a chinuch-related job so you'll get the summer off, and then you'll enjoy being with your children and not be burnt out - not when they're in school, but when they really need you when they're at home.
Yes! Why is everyone ignoring this point? If being a SAHM makes you so burned out that you can't deal with your kids when they are home from school, why are you a SAHM? You're not! You're a stay-at-home-only-when-my-kids-are-not-home-mom!
Yeah, and not to continue the mommy wars, but I know working moms who keep their year-round babysitters during the summer too. So stop judging SAHMs for supposedly not being there. Working moms get to go to work. SAHMs have their kids buzzing in their heads 24/7 during vacations, if they aren't in camp.
Well, we kept our sitter during the summer, because we worked during the summer. We also paid her when we were off, because she needed the income, and we didn't want to lose her. I'm not sure why that's relevant.
Not to fan the flames, but I always thought that people were SAHMs because they wanted to be around their kids as much as possible. If they thought it was better for their kids to be watched by someone else during the day, what would be the problem with working while the kids were elsewhere?
Whoever really wants to cut toilet paper (and by the way, frum companies have been manufacturing special Shabbos toilet paper for years) can use a scissors to get the task done faster. I'm sure my kids would figure this out if they were forced to tear two squares at a time. (When my son had to write "I will not be chutzpadig to the rebbe" 200 times, he attempted to use the copier on the fax machine.)
my kids prefer all the pieces to be the same size, so they insist on doing it by hand (3 sq. at a time)
[should we start a new thread on this?]
grin, I am with your kids. We usually use tissues in our house, but if we dont have and we rip the toilet paper, I usually do it because I like all of the pieces to be the same size too (my daughter is 3, I dont want her ripping it yet, it will be no good)
This would be a fun thread in the israel section
Whoever really wants to cut toilet paper (and by the way, frum companies have been manufacturing special Shabbos toilet paper for years) can use a scissors to get the task done faster. I'm sure my kids would figure this out if they were forced to tear two squares at a time. (When my son had to write "I will not be chutzpadig to the rebbe" 200 times, he attempted to use the copier on the fax machine.)
my kids prefer all the pieces to be the same size, so they insist on doing it by hand (3 sq. at a time)
[should we start a new thread on this?]
grin, I am with your kids. We usually use tissues in our house, but if we dont have and we rip the toilet paper, I usually do it because I like all of the pieces to be the same size too (my daughter is 3, I dont want her ripping it yet, it will be no good)
This would be a fun thread in the israel section
Didn't read the whole thread, so of course I'm wondering how a discussion about camp turned into one about cutting toilet paper. Only on imamother! I'm just brainstorming - do the camps have inferior quality stuff in the bathroom? Or do people by cheaper brands in order to save up $$$ for camp?
"Isramom you obviously see camp as a necessity for all kids. Even if it means using public zedoko funds for it which could be used let's say to give poor families food or for hachnosas kallo for orphans....Maybe you are just burned out and tired? Maybe that's what eight kids do to you? Do you think you would feel that way if you had five? Or three? I'm asking seriously because you were the one who is espousing having very large families for the good of "klal yisroel"...but even if having those kids and taking care of them is running the mother ragged? for those who cope fine, great, but for those who don't? I don't get it...'
I did feel this way when I had 5 kids, and 3. My children have high energy and high intellectual needs, and I can't be everything to them. I don't think Hashem expects that.
I think we should build Klal Yisrael, and Klal Yisrael should help care for its future generations.
There are a lot of tzedakas in need. Borei nefashos rabos vechesronan...baruch Chay Haolamim.
I'm saying to include camp subsidies within organizational funding needs. like now, if you donate to Chabad, some money is used towards their camps. That's why their camps are affordable.
Wow Tamiri, you are saying it all.
Illness? Did I miss something? Refuah shleima
Seraph, you are throwing up every morning? Do I wish you a refuah shleima or something else? Feel good, it passes no matter what it comes from. No one throws up every morning for the rest of their lives.
Ladies I am with tamiri. You should have seen us when we were younger. Look at us today, that's where you are going to be tomorrow. I remember a hospital room in July so hot in maternity with twelve count them twelve other women in that room, I asked dh to buy me a fan, I couldn't cope with the heat. I stil have this tiny sit on a nighttable fan that he got me, and I don't wish it on anyone but you survive it. Sure if you have a choice use the a/c but what if you don't? Will you plots?
Yes it really does sound like stay at home women only when their kids aren't home or at most they are only home with a baby. Wow...where did that come from? Who taught them to be like that? My grandmother lived in the bronx and would shlep everyone by subway to coney island in the summer during the 1930s to be cool. My grandfather was out of a job half of the time during the depression and no one could dream about camp or bungalo or kochalein in the country. And no one said that one should get zedoko to be able to go.
Working moms who keep their babysitters IF THEY CAN AFFORD THEM is not a problem. Once again, we are talking about affording.
Isramom you obviously see camp as a necessity for all kids. Even if it means using public zedoko funds for it which could be used let's say to give poor families food or for hachnosas kallo for orphans....Maybe you are just burned out and tired? Maybe that's what eight kids do to you? Do you think you would feel that way if you had five? Or three? I'm asking seriously because you were the one who is espousing having very large families for the good of "klal yisroel"...but even if having those kids and taking care of them is running the mother ragged? for those who cope fine, great, but for those who don't? I don't get it...
sorry, fs, this time I side with the younger crowd. you can't argue with the fact of yeridat hadorot - each generation gets weaker, both physically and emotionally (after all, they're both connected) and it's harder and harder for them to cope. we couldn't cope with what our parents and g-parents dealt with; they can't live like we did. forget that - I can't live anymore like I used to, and it's not just my age.
Whoever really wants to cut toilet paper (and by the way, frum companies have been manufacturing special Shabbos toilet paper for years) can use a scissors to get the task done faster. I'm sure my kids would figure this out if they were forced to tear two squares at a time. (When my son had to write "I will not be chutzpadig to the rebbe" 200 times, he attempted to use the copier on the fax machine.)
my kids prefer all the pieces to be the same size, so they insist on doing it by hand (3 sq. at a time)
[should we start a new thread on this?]
grin, I am with your kids. We usually use tissues in our house, but if we dont have and we rip the toilet paper, I usually do it because I like all of the pieces to be the same size too (my daughter is 3, I dont want her ripping it yet, it will be no good)
This would be a fun thread in the israel section
Didn't read the whole thread, so of course I'm wondering how a discussion about camp turned into one about cutting toilet paper. Only on imamother! I'm just brainstorming - do the camps have inferior quality stuff in the bathroom? Or do people by cheaper brands in order to save up $$$ for camp?
"do the camps have inferior quality stuff in the bathroom? Or do people by cheaper brands in order to save up $$$ for camp?"
My kids' school charges way more than most Israeli schools, and some years my kids were told to bring their own toilet paper! The principal fundraises in France and the US. The 3 week day camp is supposedly subsidized, and is still expensive. And the principal says neither he nor parents can occupy kids all day nowadays with clay and scissors.
I also don't understand why people are choosing to be SAHMs if they don't like their children. And keeping on having children if they can't cope with them.
I truly believe that young children are best off with their mothers. With my first, I stayed at home for a year and a half, by which time I was going insane and so I put him in daycare part time and started my masters. With my second, I was already knee deep in my Masters and was trying to be at home and keep going and managed that for 6 months after which he went to the babysitter's a few times a week.
I admit that while my choice is good for me and was necessary to preserve my sanity, its not necessarily ideal for him. But now I sound like I'm getting into the SAHM/WM debate which I didn't mean to.
Not really applicable to me, as I work so I need to send my kids to camp - the backyard camp types. HS/sem aged counselors, an open backyard, they do an excellent job and not more expensive than playgroup for the year.
For my son I pay $240/month for camp that lasts 9:30-2:15; extended hours are $5/hour. We drop him off at 8:45 so at the end of the month it will probably be @$315. My daughter continued on at her playgroup as the Morah is doing camp too and we pay $350 which includes extended hours of 8:45-2:00. Not really in the "luxurious" price range (although as mentioned, for me it's a necessity). They come home so happy and refreshed and tired (in a good way).
After camp we run errands or take short naps or whatever but at 4:00/5:00 the entire block is full of kids running around, riding bikes, playing with water tables, some mothers set up sprinklers and kiddie pools, etc. I can basically just sit on my porch and read, etc. (although I have to keep a close eye on the 2.5 year old). This is a major advantage (I'm seeing here) to having a house/backyard.
Freidasima, we do a lot of those things, but my kids need that PLUS outside activities. I don't know if that's the norm, or if my kids are just doubly needy as far as stimulation and creativity. I do know that teachers always comment about how much they know from home. That doesn't mean they are capable of staying home 24/7 for 9 weeks.
Wake up late. Daven. Eat breakfast. Straighten the room. Seriously, isn't it around 10 am by then? Take bikes do a couple of sivivim. Meet up with friends under the building where it's cool and chill out. Come home for what passes as lunch. Play in the house with sibs/friends/alone until it's time to go outside again at 5. Read. I don't see what so hard here. Once a kid is at least 8 or 9 years old, of course.
Why is a mothers physical comfort considered a necessity, yet her emotional/mental comfort is considered a luxury?
But that's the whole point. WHY do people think a normal, healthy SAHM mother's emotional well-being is on the line if she has to LOOK AFTER HER OWN CHILDREN for a few weeks???
You know, I'm wondering if some women here don't have it backwards. If you are a SAHM all year and you have burn out by the summer, to the point where you have to send your own children to an orphanage aka sleepaway camp because you can't bear to have them around, then maybe you just shouldn't be a SAHM at all. Work during the year in a chinuch-related job so you'll get the summer off, and then you'll enjoy being with your children and not be burnt out - not when they're in school, but when they really need you when they're at home.
It's not burn out. During the year your kids go to school for a few hours! Not only does it get them out of the house and keep them occupied, but it provides a structured life for the whole family.
I most definitely think it's burn out. The women here were kvetching about how they don't have the koach to clean up after what their kids spilt and change their clothes and shlep them to the park. When my older kids were little (whoever wrote about my kids being grown up, not quite yet ) I was a teacher and I used to wait and wait for the summer so I would have time with them just to be a mommy. What do these SAHMs think it means to be a SAHM? So it just sounds now like you want to be a SAHM only part of the day. Oh, that's what most working moms do, isn't it?
Now if you are rich, and that's what you want to do, you can afford to be a SAHL - a stay at home lady. There are plenty of those (not really in Israel) - you go drink coffee with your friends, go to the gym, chill out and go shopping while your housekeeper cleans and your children are either at school or have someone else caring for them. And if you can afford it and you like the idea, gezunterheit.
Quote:
When you base your life on a certain pattern, and that changes to NO outside activities for the kids, it's very challenging. The mother still has to do everything she does when the kids are in school. only, they're hanging around whining, arguing and hot.
Well, you could have blown me away with a feather. Let's go check our calendars. I see some days are school days and some days are YT and some days are erev YT and some days are vacation. And Hashem gave us our children 24/7. On days with the same pattern, and on days without.
I don't get why kids are hanging around, and whining (ok the arguing and hot I get). WHY are they whining? If your kids are whining it's because YOU taught them that vacation means you will take them to the Luna Park/ the beach/ provide endless (expensive) entertainment. If your kids (of any age) know they have toys and games and books and paper and pens and scissors (some of which you take out occasionally as a change) and they are supposed to find things to do, helped by your suggestions and interest, they will. Actually for you it should be much easier since you have older ones too who can organize things. You can also tell your older ones that if they occupy the younger ones in the morning you can get things done and then you will have time to take them all out later.
Quote:
It's a tired myth to believe that SAHMs do nothing all day. Women who work outside their homes generally have workers who do what the typical SAHM does all day by herself.
Either they do or they don't. Halevai.
Quote:
Summer vacation interferes with the sane schedule the SAHM has created.
So either make your own summer schedule or learn that not every day of the year is the same. Lehefech, if you are a SAHm you have more of an opportunity (if you have time) to prepare for vacation by, e.g. stocking up the freezer.
Why is a mothers physical comfort considered a necessity, yet her emotional/mental comfort is considered a luxury?
But that's the whole point. WHY do people think a normal, healthy SAHM mother's emotional well-being is on the line if she has to LOOK AFTER HER OWN CHILDREN for a few weeks???
You know, I'm wondering if some women here don't have it backwards. If you are a SAHM all year and you have burn out by the summer, to the point where you have to send your own children to an orphanage aka sleepaway camp because you can't bear to have them around, then maybe you just shouldn't be a SAHM at all. Work during the year in a chinuch-related job so you'll get the summer off, and then you'll enjoy being with your children and not be burnt out - not when they're in school, but when they really need you when they're at home.
It's not burn out. During the year your kids go to school for a few hours! Not only does it get them out of the house and keep them occupied, but it provides a structured life for the whole family.
When you base your life on a certain pattern, and that changes to NO outside activities for the kids, it's very challenging. The mother still has to do everything she does when the kids are in school. only, they're hanging around whining, arguing and hot.
It's a tired myth to believe that SAHMs do nothing all day. Women who work outside their homes generally have workers who do what the typical SAHM does all day by herself. Summer vacation interferes with the sane schedule the SAHM has created.
Wait, did I miss the inter-mom memo telling me that someone else is supposed to be doing the laundry, cooking, washing up, picking up the toys, and general cleaning because I'm out of the house 10 hours a day? Gee whiz. Why am I always the one left out? Do I have any offers? Anyone want to do all that for me? Didn't think so. I guess I'll just keep on truckin' then. Funny, the only thing I am somehow not finding time for as a working mom is my kids. (And no, I'm not off during the summer.)
Seraph, chapeau! Kudos! Kol hakavod! You said it quite right although I have a feeling that some of the posters who were talking about four kids under six or five under seven would consider your situation gan eden...
Oh I don't doubt that my kids aren't the biggest vilde chayes in the world; obviously some kids are even more of a challenge to handle. Part of the reason they're less of a challenge is because I dont give them structure 24/7 and they learn how to entertain themselves, something kids in school all year and camp all summer don't really learn how to do...
My point really was, you can make anything into a bigger deal than it really is. But whats the point?
have you guys thought about investing into cell phones, so that your dh wouldn't have to wake you up to tell you important stuff before he leaves?
I am just trying to point out, that for a typical family living in Brooklyn on a high floor with no elevator, no porch and no backyard, having the entire family home is absolutely not feasible.
Everyone else who is NOT from Brooklyn and does NOT have these living arrangements, your opinion does not count, and you dont understand just what it's like.
MOving to the suburbs is not an option, for a variety of reasons.
So, this thread doesnt have to be about me, and you dont need to give me ideas, because I, BH, am not having a problem sending my kids to day camp. It's free for both of them.
I am just trying to point out that it is *NOT*, and I repeat, *NOT* a luxury for a city family with no car, no elevator, no outdoors, and a small apartment. It just simply is not.
*******
And by the way, today both of my kids are off. It's only 2 pm and I have *already* lost my mind. I'm looking for it somewhere. This house has already become an absolute pigsty, my 5 1/2 yr old wont leave me alone for a second, my poor 3 yr old is being totally ignored, and I cant get a thing done. I havent even eaten. I have a jillion errands to run, all on foot, with 1 kid who is kvetching htat he doesnt want to come along, and another kid who is screaming in the stroller because he wants to go somewhere else. I really planned to go to a beach park today but couldn't because of my 3 yr old's therapy schedule. Thankfully, my 5 yr old FINALLY decided to go play outside a litlte, my 3 yr old has been dropped off at therapy (with a very reluctant 5 yr old having to be hurried along). Now I have to run to the dentist, the the grocery store to buy nosh for the upsherin peklech for next week, the school office to regisgter the 5 yr old for summer cheder, and the new apartment to see if the painter has arrived yet. So far he hasn't. There's no way I could do all of this with the 3 yr old home - that's why I'm doing it all while he's at therapy for a few hours.
So I'm throwing up my hands in despair trying to wonder how you all can seriously suggest someone should do this for 10 weeks in a row. I wouldnt be able to accomplish ONE ERRAND, ONE PHONE CALL, ONE APPOINTMENT. the 5 yr old is so high maintenance I cant interrupt our game for a minute to even check how the 3 yr old is doing. The 3 yr old is special needs and unless he is occupied, he is destroying the freezer and the house.
And I love them both and they are both beautiful and delicious and I'd give my life for them both. They just do not belong at home during the daytime. I dont have a *paid* job, but I do have a job which is to take care of this household. Sometimes it's parenting, but at other times it involves doing a lot of things I cannot do when my children need my attention. People who done homeschool, dont homeschool for a reason. Because they can't juggle their housework, errands, stuff, take care of themselves and their own health an well being, at the same time as teaching, or being a daycamp counselor.
So I dont see why in the summer they should suddenly be able to do it full time. I just don't.
Last edited by Mama Bear on Thu, Jun 30 2011, 2:24 pm; edited 2 times in total
Fine, so being a SAHM with kids all day is not for you. Wouldn't you rather earn a salary during the summer months to cover camp tuition, vs accepting tzedaka while you SAH minus the M?
"I also don't understand why people are choosing to be SAHMs if they don't like their children."
Oh, it's an in thing. We don't like our children at all. We're just looking for an excuse to be lazy.
Tova, I pay for my kids' school kaitana roughly what you pay for your backyard day camp. That price is still difficult for some Israeli families. Should their kids be stuck at home?
grin, I am with your kids. We usually use tissues in our house, but if we dont have and we rip the toilet paper, I usually do it because I like all of the pieces to be the same size too (my daughter is 3, I dont want her ripping it yet, it will be no good)
I'm just brainstorming - do the camps have inferior quality stuff in the bathroom? Or do people by cheaper brands in order to save up $$$ for camp?
(And no, I'm not off during the summer.)
