I love SAHMs, after being one myself for 19 years. I was fortunate, almost to the end of my time in the US, to have a couple of SAHM friends to hang with, or p/t working moms or wanna-be SAHM. Do you know why there are no more SAHM in general? It's because people WANT things. A lot of things. And to pay for it, you need to be a working mom. You can't get by and pay tuitions with one salary, unless it's in the 200K dollar range in the U.S. - assuming you have 3-4 day school tuitions. And people WANT to also send their kids to camp. And have newer cars. Whatever - that is each family's decision.
HOWEVER, a SAHM type of family, where the daddy isn't hauling in the $250k salary, in the MO world ( I don't know the equivalent in the right wing world) has GOT to realize: supporting a SAHM comes at cost. Sometimes, at great cost. It may mean no cleaning lady. No gardener. No new leased car every couple of years. Or *gasp* no/minimal camp for the children. That's a decision people make. And they have to pay the price. SAHM is there FOR THE KIDS, isn't she? Or is she there to decorate the house all day when no one is home? In that case, she can be called SAHF, stay at home fixture, because she sure isn't momming!
Picklelady, I have been in your exact situation: apartment, no car, no backyard, little kids, hot boring summer. First few summers I couldn't afford camp. Everyone stayed home. It was rough and even a bit lonely but such is life. My attitude made a big difference. We did an outing every morning came home for lunch and downtime/quiet play. The kids often watched a short video while I cleaned up and prepped dinner. Then for the all important socialization we did playdates with other kids in the afternoon when they were home from camp. Yes it was more tiring than being home with just my youngest all day and putzing around om imamother during naptime. But we couldn't afford camp.
Just because the mom and kids would be happier with camp still doesn't make it a necessity. Since when do we equate camp with food and shelter...just because it's hard to entertain kids all day doesn't make camp a necessity. Gosh who knew this had to be shouted from the rooftops til people understand!
Tamiri, some see SAHM-ing as important for some kids more than others. So a woman might stay home to be with her 1-year-old but still think the 3-year-old belongs in gan, or might stay home with the 1-year-old and 3-year-old but think that the 7-year-old really needs to be in camp.
So it's not about being there for the kids vs. camp for the kids, but about being there for some vs. camp for others.
As for what young tired moms plan to do when they are 40 or 50 - I think most of us are praying that our kids won't need help showering, wiping their backsides or tying their shoes by then, leaving us needing a bit less energy for physical care.
don't be so judgemental. for some of us camp is better chinuch than life at home ever could be and we learn through our kids.
If you can afford it,great. If you can't afford it and funds are made available to you, also great. If you can't afford it and funds aren't made available, tough. We all have a life. We all have circumstances. We all have needs/wants/wishes. If a person can't have what they want, they should just move on and stop making excuses about how much they deserve/should get something. Beggers cannot be choosers, and cannot live like a rich person. That's just the way it is. And their kids should be learning that lesson too. It doesn't look as if life, particularly in the U.S., is going to get much better very soon. Meaning salaries will probably stagnate or drop and prices will rise and donations will go down. People need to get used to that. Have less kids. Marry later. Get a good education and PRAY that leads to a well paying job. But quit relying on tzedaka. There's less to go around to more people these days.
My point is different.
In your case, it appears that camp is indeed a wonderful experience, and I'm glad you've been able to send them. But that doesn't make it a necessity. You prove that point by stating that your son isn't at camp this year. If it was a *necessity,* he would be, and he'd either repeat 9th grade, or you'd find another way for him to make up the credits.
I am not saying that camp is a necessity, but it isn't always a complete luxury either.
I think alot of the judgement on this thread is coming from people who don't live & have never lived like some of us do in brooklyn.
Many many young families are living in one or two bedroom tiny apartments with large families. It is not uncommon to hear of a couple with 4 kids living in a one bedroom apartment. All those pools, backyards, & porches that you people speak about ARE a LUXURY over HERE.
I look forward to the time that my kids are off to take them to parks and places that we normally don't get to. BUT that isn't possible for every mother to do every day even in normal circumstances. She may 'just' be in her ninth month with 4 or 5 elementary age kids that are off for 10 weeks living in a small place. If you don't have even a small outdoor spot (porch, backyard, lawn, etc...) to call your own it can be nearly impossible to handle. There is no place to set up a sprinkler, pool, or for them to run without making a trip to a park each time.
This summer my children will be in day camp for half a summer. No it isn't a complete neccesity & it will be a big strain on our pocket. Part of the reason they are going is because I am a wahm (I won't be working much the month that they are home), but mainly because I will be in my 9th month & can't handle heat well at all. I can't keep my kids indoors for a month straight either. I also don't want the little one to start school for the first time when I have a baby. If I send him to daycamp (the same place) a month before, he won't have so many changes at once.
I really don't understand. When I was growing up it didn't matter if your mother was working or a SAHM, if she was 22 or 70, if you had no siblings or 21 siblings, if it was 'done' or 'not done', if you lived in the city or the suburbs.
If you couldn't afford camp, or ANYTHING other then food, clothing and shelter, you simply did without it.
No money for a car? No car.
No money for camp? No camp.
No money for vacation? No vacation.
No money for presents? No present.
There was no such thing as doing something you couldn't afford. This is something recent. And again, I remind you, people grew up just fine.
Maybe it's too hot in the city. Maybe it turns into a ghost town. Maybe you don't have the stamina to entertain your children on a daily basis. Gesunterheit. But please, let's realistically establish the difference between a need and a want.
so all those abusive husbands, kids who went otd, people who are dishonest in business, people scamming the government, people who need therapy etc etc - they are all fine. Not to mention all the parents of today going into debt to buy their kids designer clothing and ipods and camp and over the top barmitzvas.
Not saying camp fixes these issues. But I disagree that every single person of Mrs k's generation is just fine.
And yes, some of them might indeed have benefited from camp.
Simply doing without isn't always the most productive thing, for the individual or community.
There are situations where it's not worthwhile for the community to pay for things like camp, but there are also situations where it's a good investment. Like the example someone gave of a child in a non-Jewish school whose only exposure to a full-time frum environment is through summer camp.
Or a car - better to give someone a loan or even a gift to buy a car, than to have them severely limited in work opportunities.
Not that everyone is entitled to everything they need in order to be happy (as if that's even a finite thing). And in general it's better to go without than to take tzedaka if possible. But sometimes, taking tzedaka is better for everyone in the long term.
so all those abusive husbands, kids who went otd, people who are dishonest in business, people scamming the government, people who need therapy etc etc - they are all fine. Not to mention all the parents of today going into debt to buy their kids designer clothing and ipods and camp and over the top barmitzvas.
The above things happening BECAUSE these kids didn't go to camp? Really? I would sooner blame it on, say, a broken home or abuse, then camp.
Could they have benefited from camp? Sure. But I can also benefit from a summer home in Teveria. But I can't afford it. So now I'm going to go scam the government.
And let's just say 'my generation' is more the 90's then the 40's. I'm not that old!
Last year, a woman called my husband up and wanted him to call a wealthy business man who he is friendly with. She had promised her dd that she could go to camp, but she couldn't afford it after her husband was laid off. She didn't want to tell her kid she could no longer go to camp. She wanted my husband to call this man and ask for tzedakah. My husband made the call, although both of us thought it was a bad idea. We loved the man's answer to the request: He'd be happy to give some money for camp, but the woman or her husband could come and work in his store in exchange for the camp money. They didn't accept the offer.
As for what young tired moms plan to do when they are 40 or 50 - I think most of us are praying that our kids won't need help showering, wiping their backsides or tying their shoes by then, leaving us needing a bit less energy for physical care.
Well, if you plan on having babies after 35, you still will be...
And, I hate to tell you this, but it's a lot easier to have a sleepless night because a baby woke you up, than a sleepless night because no one woke you up but you were worrying about what you heard from the rebbe/teacher, or you have to solve a chinuch problem, or you need to decide which yeshiva/sem your child should go to... or that you don't know if they'll get into (I'll get back to you, iy"H on shidduchim and grandchildren)
BTW, PM, I also don't have any chareidi family to go visit in a massive radius, and no backyard either. Sob, sob.
tamari I totally agree with you, here are some of my random thoughts on the matter, I did not read the whole thread so sorry if I've repeated something.
the one thing I do have to say on the camp/keep your kids at home thing....
if you think about it having kids at 20 is like a baby having a baby and women dont realize what it really takes to have a kid. They dont understand that it's their responsiblity to provide structure for their kid. They may want to get angry and scream but it's their responsbility not to scream. They have to control themselves. (I am not at all claiming not to be in this group of women, the only difference with me and most of them is I know I'm an inadequate mother and I'm the issue and camp is a cop-out from parenting).
I've heard many times that the cause of entitlement is lack of gratitude. If we were really appricaiative of what we have and realize we DESERVE nothing and that eveyrthing we have is more than what we deserve than we would be grateful for what we have and not imagine asking for more.
I hear on the news how todays economy is similar to the 1930s but at the same time you dont see people online at the food shelters or temp angencies trying to get a job. Everyone is living in a world of non-reality. people live on their credit cards and dont face the facts of their lives.
I blame us parents for creating this generation. My parents' generation only destroyed half of our generation but I feel like 95% of our generation are destroying the kids of today.
Kids dont know the difference between "need" and "want"
Most of my friends' kids' have them in after school programs. I see the benifit of learning an instrument or taking an art/dance/karate class/organized sports. But at the same time what are you teaching your child by giving them these classes. Are they allowed to quit when they want? Do they realize how much it costs?
I dont believe that children should know the households financials (like whether or not tuition is being afforded or not), but they should understand money. They should know how much things cost, they should be responsible to replace things they break. They should know how much things cost when they are purchased.
so all those abusive husbands, kids who went otd, people who are dishonest in business, people scamming the government, people who need therapy etc etc - they are all fine. Not to mention all the parents of today going into debt to buy their kids designer clothing and ipods and camp and over the top barmitzvas.
The above things happening BECAUSE these kids didn't go to camp? Really? I would sooner blame it on, say, a broken home or abuse, then camp.
Could they have benefited from camp? Sure. But I can also benefit from a summer home in Teveria. But I can't afford it. So now I'm going to go scam the government.
And let's just say 'my generation' is more the 90's then the 40's. I'm not that old!
clearly you missed out reading the second half of my post.
I disagree. Kids can often benefit very much from camp. I am sending my kids to camp for similar reasons to chanamiriam, and yes, we are getting some help to pay for it. (plus we are not taking as nice a vacation as we used to when we were not sending so many kids to camp)
I think I benefited a huge amount frumkiet wise from camp. and I only went a couple of times to a two week camp. Some years my parents could not afford to send me.
Tamiri do you have any idea what it's like to live on a fourth floor walkup with no porch in the crazy summer heat???
The kids get in each other's way. You cant clean up the house, ever. theyre bored. you cant nurse the baby. you cant cook dinner. Going out means getting everyone dressed, cleaned up, food for everyone. down 3 flights of stairs. trek in the heat to a subway or bus. finally get to your destination. field everyone's requests, mediate everyone's fights. arrive home exhausted 4 hours later to a messy house, no dinner, cranky kids.
Try doing that for 10 weeks.
it's a one-way ticket to the nut-house.
You really dont understand that some people really, really, really need their children to be in some kind of structured program for 5 hours a day 4 days a week? That some parents really, really need the breather???
Do you KNOW what it's like to be in the hot concrete city all summer with the kids stuck in the cramped 2 bedroom railroad apartment???
Day camp is really, really not a luxury for city kids.
Tamiri do you have any idea what it's like to live on a fourth floor walkup with no porch in the crazy summer heat???
The kids get in each other's way. You cant clean up the house, ever. theyre bored. you cant nurse the baby. you cant cook dinner. Going out means getting everyone dressed, cleaned up, food for everyone. down 3 flights of stairs. trek in the heat to a subway or bus. finally get to your destination. field everyone's requests, mediate everyone's fights. arrive home exhausted 4 hours later to a messy house, no dinner, cranky kids.
Try doing that for 10 weeks.
it's a one-way ticket to the nut-house.
You really dont understand that some people really, really, really need their children to be in some kind of structured program for 5 hours a day 4 days a week? That some parents really, really need the breather???
Do you KNOW what it's like to be in the hot concrete city all summer with the kids stuck in the cramped 2 bedroom railroad apartment???
Day camp is really, really not a luxury for city kids.
I don't know if Tamiri knows, but, yes I live on the fourth floor, in the summer as well as the winter. BH.
I have a different structure to my day now my older kids are older, but, yes, wow, I used to dress everyone (um, weren't they dressed before?), pack tissues and diapers and wipes and toys for the sand and water and snacks and sometimes sandwiches too and go to the park most summer afternoons.
clearly you missed out reading the second half of my post.
I disagree. Kids can often benefit very much from camp. I am sending my kids to camp for similar reasons to chanamiriam, and yes, we are getting some help to pay for it. (plus we are not taking as nice a vacation as we used to when we were not sending so many kids to camp)
I think I benefited a huge amount frumkiet wise from camp. and I only went a couple of times to a two week camp. Some years my parents could not afford to send me.
We are not disagreeing. Not I, (nor anyone on this thread, from what I gather) is saying that kids don't benefit from camp.
Tamiri do you have any idea what it's like to live on a fourth floor walkup with no porch in the crazy summer heat???
The kids get in each other's way. You cant clean up the house, ever. theyre bored. you cant nurse the baby. you cant cook dinner. Going out means getting everyone dressed, cleaned up, food for everyone. down 3 flights of stairs. trek in the heat to a subway or bus. finally get to your destination. field everyone's requests, mediate everyone's fights. arrive home exhausted 4 hours later to a messy house, no dinner, cranky kids.
Try doing that for 10 weeks.
it's a one-way ticket to the nut-house.
You really dont understand that some people really, really, really need their children to be in some kind of structured program for 5 hours a day 4 days a week? That some parents really, really need the breather???
Do you KNOW what it's like to be in the hot concrete city all summer with the kids stuck in the cramped 2 bedroom railroad apartment???
Day camp is really, really not a luxury for city kids.
Are you saying that you would ask for tzedakah to send them to camp while you stayed home, if you could not otherwise afford to do so?
As for what young tired moms plan to do when they are 40 or 50 - I think most of us are praying that our kids won't need help showering, wiping their backsides or tying their shoes by then, leaving us needing a bit less energy for physical care.
Well, if you plan on having babies after 35, you still will be...
And, I hate to tell you this, but it's a lot easier to have a sleepless night because a baby woke you up, than a sleepless night because no one woke you up but you were worrying about what you heard from the rebbe/teacher, or you have to solve a chinuch problem, or you need to decide which yeshiva/sem your child should go to... or that you don't know if they'll get into (I'll get back to you, iy"H on shidduchim and grandchildren)
Shalhevet, shhhhh. Let me have my delusions. And my poor math skills. I need them right now (things will be financially easier when I'm 40 too, btw ).
My kids would have to really go nuts in order to give me as many nights of poor sleep at 41 as I experienced at 27... but then, given their personalities now I'm not ruling out "going nuts" as an option.
Mama Bear, it can become a self-sustaining problem though. Because the kids are bored and can't entertain themselves, they get sent to activities or camp or whatever. But then because they're used to being constantly entertained, they can't entertain themselves and find normal life boring.
Not that kids should be expected to play indoors all day.
I really don't get what's so hard in a normal situation about getting on a bus and going somewhere. Most of what you describe is just everyday life - don't you dress the kids every day? Bring them out of the house? Field requests, mediate fights?
Maybe if the nearest park were 20 minutes or more away by bus. Personally I'd consider an apartment like that simply not liveable.
we did playdates with other kids in the afternoon when they were home from camp. Yes it was more tiring than being home with just my youngest all day and putzing around om imamother during naptime. But we couldn't afford camp.
(I'll get back to you, iy"H on shidduchim and grandchildren)
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