What about the feelings of the OP? America today may be a materialistic society with individuals who feel entitled to products and experiences they can not fiscally afford, however, I do not see that as the original purpose of the other thread. The purpose of imamother, IMHO, is a place where frum women can connect and form an open dialogue allowing individuals to communicate freely but also respectfully. The OP stated that she has medical issues that she is currently seeking professional services for and may not safely be able to supervise her children during the summer. Can't we give the woman a break instead of attacking her?
Some of the other threads relating to cost/size of engagement rings, kallah/chosson gifts I feel are tactless. If the purpose is to try and understand what is expected in a community, that is one thing, but to show off how much someone/you spent on jewelry or other materialistic goods makes people who might feel that they have to keep up with the Goldbergs' feel bad which just perpetuates the whole cycle!
The problem is, subsequent posts start stating opinions and feelings as fact, when they aren't.
Saying things like everyone deserves X, no child should have to live through the horror of doing without Y, when you are discussing most things aside from food, clothing, and shelter, is just a bit much.
Back in the day, you had what you could afford, and did without what you couldn't. And people grew up just fine.
This isn't about the OP. We don't have enough info from her to know whether camp for her kids is necessity or not. It's about the responses about how everyone deserves camp, even if they can't afford it and circumstances don't warrant it. From reading some of the posts, it seems there are NO circumstances where camp is a luxury.
we can all be sickened by so many things in the community. I remember as a kid that classmates went to camp while I was home stuck in day camp (which I never exactly liked). I also remember knowing that those kids were the kids whose parents took them to florida for winter vacation, wore expensive sweatshirts to school (against the uniform rules), had live-in maids, and were pretty much spoiled brats. my parents did send me to sternberg, which I enjoyed some of the time, but the kids in my class went to fancier camps that had (gasp) MAIDS! I was shocked when I heard the girls there didn't have to clean the bathrooms as part of daily cleanup. I thought that was so stupid. I remember being shocked at being sent to sternberg to begin with. to me, overnight camp was for spoiled rich kids.
I do know some kids who NEED to be in camp, but those are the ones who get funding from outside sources because their home situations are lousy.
I also understand the need to send youngish kids to day camp, even when you're home. my kids (nearly five, 3.5) are in day camp for the summer. last summer I kept them home and we all went a little bonkers. they're good at occupying themselves, but my son was used to a school structure by then and couldn't handle all the free time. I did my best to structure their day, but my then 2.5 yr old was very demanding and scheduling did not work out. I bought a kiddie pool, took them to parks, found activities, went to the library (which they LOVE) but it was still too much for me. I don't think there's anything wrong with day camp if you can afford it and the kids thrive in such an environment. if I couldn't pay for it, I'd skip it. I'd consider keeping my children home for the summer when they're older if they are interested in it. I would NOT send my child to overnight camp unless s/he specifically wants to go, and we have a way to pay for it. I love the idea of having the kid work one month to pay for the cost of camp.
on a similar note, I know a guy whose bar mitzva money went towards his bar mitzvah party. he wanted a party for his class, his parents said, "ok, but you're helping to pay for it" and that was that. it was a lovely party, and I think it was a smart move on the parents' part.
In school one of my students, who comes from a very wealthy home, would often talk about vacations she went on and her summer plans etc. A co-teacher felt that we should tell her to stop, that there are girls that are not so lucky etc. As radical as I might sound, I disagreed. Children need to learn that there are different circumstances in different families, that there are richer people out there and even if you wish you could- you cannot always be THE SAME.
Sorry for my rant but I hate this new age philosophy of "protecting" our kids from the real world. This IMHO encourages entitlement. We need to teach our kids to be happy with what they have and count their blessings.
Freidasima's suggestion of kids playing computer games all summer is exactly what I want to avoid. In kaitana (3 weeks run by their school/gan) they do creative activities, socialize, and are taken on lots of trips where I don't have the koach to shelp all day.
That leaves "only" 6 weeks of all-day computer games. It's SUPER HOT and SUPER HUMID here, so even walking to the library or a bus (which might or might not have working air conditioning) is pretty close to mesiras nefesh.
But I have done summer day trips alone with my kids. (DH's kollel runs most of these 9 weeks.) Mostly though, I was pregnant in this extreme weather, or nursing an infant. Last summer we made a day of the Imamother meet in Yerushalayim! But it's not simple to shlep 4 kids on buses all day in the heat. And the costs add up too. They might as well be in an organized program.
So kaitana really helps.
At times we sent certain kids to a real camp in Ukraine or NY, for specific chinuch aims. And we feel that these carefully planned experiences met their intended purpose.
Unfortunately not every family can give their kids what they need.
Our older kids have worked in kaitanot or run their own. One worked for a summer in a falafel store.
In school one of my students, who comes from a very wealthy home, would often talk about vacations she went on and her summer plans etc. A co-teacher felt that we should tell her to stop, that there are girls that are not so lucky etc. As radical as I might sound, I disagreed. Children need to learn that there are different circumstances in different families, that there are richer people out there and even if you wish you could- you cannot always be THE SAME.
Sorry for my rant but I hate this new age philosophy of "protecting" our kids from the real world. This IMHO encourages entitlement. We need to teach our kids to be happy with what they have and count their blessings.
I think the co-teacher is right. It's good to teach kids that it's not in good taste to brag about their lives. If anything it breeds competitiveness. There will always be plenty of appropriate opportunities for kids to learn that they can't have everything they want.
In school one of my students, who comes from a very wealthy home, would often talk about vacations she went on and her summer plans etc. A co-teacher felt that we should tell her to stop, that there are girls that are not so lucky etc. As radical as I might sound, I disagreed. Children need to learn that there are different circumstances in different families, that there are richer people out there and even if you wish you could- you cannot always be THE SAME.
Sorry for my rant but I hate this new age philosophy of "protecting" our kids from the real world. This IMHO encourages entitlement. We need to teach our kids to be happy with what they have and count their blessings.
I think the co-teacher is right. It's good to teach kids that it's not in good taste to brag about their lives. If anything it breeds competitiveness. There will always be plenty of appropriate opportunities for kids to learn that they can't have everything they want.
She wasn't bragging, they were all talking about what they did on vacation or what they were doing for the summer. If I ever heard it I would comment about how such trips cost a lot of money etc. And as a teacher I've had discussions with my students about money, and appreciating what they have etc. It is normal and ACCEPTED for a child in my class to use the expression "it's too expensive, or it's a lot of money or I don't know if my family can afford it" and they are not looked down on. I say Kol Hakavod for those kids.
My only child is still a toddler, so I may be accused of not really understanding, but I agree that the sense of entitlement is shocking. If someone is working hard all summer and still can't cough up the cash for childcare, I can understand asking for help. But I don't understand what it means to be HOME ALL DAY and still expect that others will pay for you to send your kids out for some fun. I really don't get it. Most of us working moms DON'T have the luxury of taking off in the summer. We still manage to get everything done. Aside from extraordinary circumstances, I don't know why you can't take care of your kids if you're home anyway.
In school one of my students, who comes from a very wealthy home, would often talk about vacations she went on and her summer plans etc. A co-teacher felt that we should tell her to stop, that there are girls that are not so lucky etc. As radical as I might sound, I disagreed. Children need to learn that there are different circumstances in different families, that there are richer people out there and even if you wish you could- you cannot always be THE SAME.
Sorry for my rant but I hate this new age philosophy of "protecting" our kids from the real world. This IMHO encourages entitlement. We need to teach our kids to be happy with what they have and count their blessings.
I think the co-teacher is right. It's good to teach kids that it's not in good taste to brag about their lives. If anything it breeds competitiveness. There will always be plenty of appropriate opportunities for kids to learn that they can't have everything they want.
She wasn't bragging, they were all talking about what they did on vacation or what they were doing for the summer. If I ever heard it I would comment about how such trips cost a lot of money etc. And as a teacher I've had discussions with my students about money, and appreciating what they have etc. It is normal and ACCEPTED for a child in my class to use the expression "it's too expensive, or it's a lot of money or I don't know if my family can afford it" and they are not looked down on. I say Kol Hakavod for those kids.
a nice number of my classmates were like that. most of those girls weren't bragging, they were just talking about what was going on in their lives. we were all aware of who went to florida anyway, they came back tanned after mid winter vacation. I don't think any of us "poorer" kids resented it, that was just life. what we felt made the other kids spoiled were really the maids in camp
how can you tell a kid not to discuss her vacations? every teacher starts the year asking for a composition on "what I did this summer." and if it's not vacations, there's always some trendy product brought to school: knapsacks, pencilcases, erasers, whatever. I think it's fine for these kids to discuss their vacations and for everyone to understand a little bit of finances. not only do the kids whose parents have less money understand what "too expensive" means, the "richer" kids may also be made to understand that what they have is not necessarily the norm. I think that's important.
When did this sense of entitlement come about? Perhaps right around when chosson presents and kalla jewels which break the bank came into vogue? Or maybe around the time young couples "couldn't" get married without the parents paying for a lavish wedding and home furnishings? Are any of the "camp is a right and a necessity even for SAHMs without money" people really reading what they are writing?
Since when is it okay for (healthy) people who have children decide "I can't handle it", "someone give me tzedaka so I don't have to spend a summer entertaining my children"?
Since when is "everyone is doing it" an excuse for those who can't afford it and are home to take of their children to beg for tzedaka so their kids can go to camp?
Since when is it not okay for children to have less financial resources to learn the (hard) facts of life?
Since when is the summer an excuse for a struggling mother to rely on take out, even if she can't afford it?
I read the excuse of "a weak generation" here over and over. And over again. Is that the only way to explain such behavior? That gives us permission to throw money at anything that gives us the slightest bit of stress, even if it means taking a hand-out for that? What kind of people choose to live that way? This is certainly NOT the Jewish way or mentality.
Camp is in place for children to be entertained during the summer. It solves a lot of "what shall I do all summer with the kids" problems for many parents, particularly those who work. Camp has ALWAYS been there. But "everyone" going hasn't. If you could afford it: great. If you were a working parent, it was a must. But for a whole bunch of kids with HEALTHY SAHMs to have a "need" to go to camp, or for their mother not to be able to figure out what to do with them? What is the message here?
camp is not only for entertainment. my daughter goes to jewish girl zone which is a kiruv oriented camp run by yeshivish people and the oorah organization. she does go to jewish day school, but she does not have really frum role models at home. yes, we keep strictly kosher and keep shabbat and chags, but neither of us are frum from birth, or educated beyond grade school jewishly. my kids are almost 12 and 15, so it is not like I 'need' a break from them. I would posit that they learn more about living jewishly in a month of camp at jewish boy or girlzone than they do in an entire year of school, and some of that is so unconscious, because they just 'see' people who are bais yakov girls or rebbetzins. Sure they have fun too, but I dont consider camp a luxury, I consider it a necessity if I want my kids to continue on an observant path.
when my son was at boyzone, he learned every day before shacharit by choice, he davened regularly and he read every single book in the library. he goes to public high school , so this opportunity was very important. he is not going this year because he needs to make up some credits over the summer for school (at the end of his grade 9 year he has only half the grade 9 credits- he has special needs.) I now need to find other ways to keep him educated jewishly.
don't be so judgemental. for some of us camp is better chinuch than life at home ever could be and we learn through our kids.
don't be so judgemental. for some of us camp is better chinuch than life at home ever could be and we learn through our kids.
If you can afford it,great. If you can't afford it and funds are made available to you, also great. If you can't afford it and funds aren't made available, tough. We all have a life. We all have circumstances. We all have needs/wants/wishes. If a person can't have what they want, they should just move on and stop making excuses about how much they deserve/should get something. Beggers cannot be choosers, and cannot live like a rich person. That's just the way it is. And their kids should be learning that lesson too. It doesn't look as if life, particularly in the U.S., is going to get much better very soon. Meaning salaries will probably stagnate or drop and prices will rise and donations will go down. People need to get used to that. Have less kids. Marry later. Get a good education and PRAY that leads to a well paying job. But quit relying on tzedaka. There's less to go around to more people these days.
When did this sense of entitlement come about? Perhaps right around when chosson presents and kalla jewels which break the bank came into vogue? Or maybe around the time young couples "couldn't" get married without the parents paying for a lavish wedding and home furnishings? Are any of the "camp is a right and a necessity even for SAHMs without money" people really reading what they are writing?
Since when is it okay for (healthy) people who have children decide "I can't handle it", "someone give me tzedaka so I don't have to spend a summer entertaining my children"?
Since when is "everyone is doing it" an excuse for those who can't afford it and are home to take of their children to beg for tzedaka so their kids can go to camp?
Since when is it not okay for children to have less financial resources to learn the (hard) facts of life?
Since when is the summer an excuse for a struggling mother to rely on take out, even if she can't afford it?
I read the excuse of "a weak generation" here over and over. And over again. Is that the only way to explain such behavior? That gives us permission to throw money at anything that gives us the slightest bit of stress, even if it means taking a hand-out for that? What kind of people choose to live that way? This is certainly NOT the Jewish way or mentality.
Camp is in place for children to be entertained during the summer. It solves a lot of "what shall I do all summer with the kids" problems for many parents, particularly those who work. Camp has ALWAYS been there. But "everyone" going hasn't. If you could afford it: great. If you were a working parent, it was a must. But for a whole bunch of kids with HEALTHY SAHMs to have a "need" to go to camp, or for their mother not to be able to figure out what to do with them? What is the message here?
This post really really really upsets me. I am a SAHM and my kids do NEED to go to camp. I live in brooklyn. I have NONE ZIPPO NADA family. So there are no trips to see family. I have NO NADA backyard. I live on a busy street, so there is not much playing my kids can do outside. I phyically can't take all my 5 kids to museums and parks everyday, I would be a dishrag by the end of the day. My kids have a great summer in camp and my boys have learning in the mornings too. My daughter is very very social and would be so upset not to be with her friends.
Where does the judgment stop? Epidurals & formula are for lazy women? What about the lazy kallahs that make their parents pay for their weddings. Get a job.
Everyone has thier lot in life and I am not one to judge.
We did take a scholarship (partial) for this year because my husband was laid off at the beginning of May, however, he started a new job yesterday and we are paying the balance.
We do not live on charity, but I was more responding to the idea that camp is like school, not babysitting and entertainment for us and that it is just as important for me to try to get my kids in to camp as it is for some to get them into school. As it is, my son is not in yeshiva because who has 20k a year plus he is probably going to take 8 years to graduate high school.
my daughter won't go to jewish high school because we don't want to pay the 20k (might be 22k) and cannot afford it anyways. That is why camp is so important to us.
meanwhile, I find your assumption that those of us who do accept help when we need it feel like we are entitled to be judgemental. yes, some people have an entitled attitude. me, I give a minimum of 20 hours a month in volunteer time to my shul and the day school which I hope helps make up for the fact that we do not pay full tuition. It is also in my head that over time, we will pay off every last penny we owe there, as we can.
FTR, I'm keeping my kids home this summer. THey are 3, 1.5 and newborn. Everyone has been telling me I'm crazy and they should go to camp, but I realize that if I keep them home and do fun things iwth them myself, then I can stay home longer. In a few weeks my paid maternity ends and if I send the kids to camp it will be really expensive. Why would I do that?
(Never mind we are having a lot of fun this summer doing mainly free things plus gas...)
Camp at 3 and 1-1/2? That makes no sense.
Check out story hour at your local library, and possibly bookstores (esp independently owned bookstores). Check out free concerts in the evening (I'd say just the oldest one on that). Check out free Tuesday programs at local parks and zoos. Buy a plastic pool and a slip and slide. But for kids that age, honestly, even a trip to the local park for a turn on the swings and a run through the sprinklers is fun.
Enjoy your summer.
There are very few SAHMs here, so really just about every 3 year old is in camp. I think its more the infant that people think I'm crazy, but I wish I could afford ot be a full time SAHM, so I'm loving the opportunity.
This post really really really upsets me. I am a SAHM and my kids do NEED to go to camp. I live in brooklyn. I have NONE ZIPPO NADA family. So there are no trips to see family. I have NO NADA backyard. I live on a busy street, so there is not much playing my kids can do outside. I phyically can't take all my 5 kids to museums and parks everyday, I would be a dishrag by the end of the day. My kids have a great summer in camp and my boys have learning in the mornings too. My daughter is very very social and would be so upset not to be with her friends.
Where does the judgment stop? Epidurals & formula are for lazy women? What about the lazy kallahs that make their parents pay for their weddings. Get a job.
Everyone has thier lot in life and I am not one to judge.
If you can pay for it, why are you upset? The problem only arises if you can't pay for it. Are you making a million excuses because you feel bad spending on camp? This is one reason Jews moved AWAY from the city. To give their kids a healthier life, not only during the summer. No one expects a parent to entertain all day, every day. Kids can do things in the house, with friends. There are less expensive city programs. And, since when is a mother of five KEH supposed to be anything BUT a dishrag at the end of the day? You expect to go ballroom dancing every night after taking care of your brood?
Since when is stating an opinion based on facts, judging? People use the word judging to counter opinions which make them uncomfortable. If my opinion makes you uncomfortable, you need to think about why that may be. Again, anyone who can afford anything, or find the means to pay for it, gezunteh heit. And if it does't happen, move on to plan B. There is always a plan B.
I also wonder this: if life is so tough for young mothers that they feel they need things that used to be luxuries, what will be when they are in their forties and fifties, still with decent sized families but with a lot less energy and stamina? What luxury will they need then, to keep their sanity and their lives in order?
meanwhile, I find your assumption that those of us who do accept help when we need it feel like we are entitled to be judgemental. yes, some people have an entitled attitude. me, I give a minimum of 20 hours a month in volunteer time to my shul and the day school which I hope helps make up for the fact that we do not pay full tuition. It is also in my head that over time, we will pay off every last penny we owe there, as we can.
You put words in my mouth. If you get help, that's great. Those who decide how to allocate have the final word. I also want to say that based on your posts, you DO NOT come across as having a sense of entitlement and you do seem to be the rare case where you are actually appreciative. I wrote over and over that my OP was geared towards those with a sense of entitlement, just because "everyone" is going or just because mom can't take the stress of kids over summer. That's all.
This post really really really upsets me. I am a SAHM and my kids do NEED to go to camp. I live in brooklyn. I have NONE ZIPPO NADA family. So there are no trips to see family. I have NO NADA backyard. I live on a busy street, so there is not much playing my kids can do outside. I phyically can't take all my 5 kids to museums and parks everyday, I would be a dishrag by the end of the day. My kids have a great summer in camp and my boys have learning in the mornings too. My daughter is very very social and would be so upset not to be with her friends.
Where does the judgment stop? Epidurals & formula are for lazy women? What about the lazy kallahs that make their parents pay for their weddings. Get a job.
Everyone has thier lot in life and I am not one to judge.
If you can pay for it, why are you upset? The problem only arises if you can't pay for it. Are you making a million excuses because you feel bad spending on camp? This is one reason Jews moved AWAY from the city. To give their kids a healthier life, not only during the summer. No one expects a parent to entertain all day, every day. Kids can do things in the house, with friends. There are less expensive city programs. And, since when is a mother of five KEH supposed to be anything BUT a dishrag at the end of the day? You expect to go ballroom dancing every night after taking care of your brood?
Since when is stating an opinion based on facts, judging? People use the word judging to counter opinions which make them uncomfortable. If my opinion makes you uncomfortable, you need to think about why that may be. Again, anyone who can afford anything, or find the means to pay for it, gezunteh heit. And if it does't happen, move on to plan B. There is always a plan B.
I also wonder this: if life is so tough for young mothers that they feel they need things that used to be luxuries, what will be when they are in their forties and fifties, still with decent sized families but with a lot less energy and stamina? What luxury will they need then, to keep their sanity and their lives in order?
I would like to publicly profess my undying love for Tamiri.
This post really really really upsets me. I am a SAHM and my kids do NEED to go to camp. I live in brooklyn. I have NONE ZIPPO NADA family. So there are no trips to see family. I have NO NADA backyard. I live on a busy street, so there is not much playing my kids can do outside. I phyically can't take all my 5 kids to museums and parks everyday, I would be a dishrag by the end of the day. My kids have a great summer in camp and my boys have learning in the mornings too. My daughter is very very social and would be so upset not to be with her friends.
Where does the judgment stop? Epidurals & formula are for lazy women? What about the lazy kallahs that make their parents pay for their weddings. Get a job.
Everyone has thier lot in life and I am not one to judge.
If you can pay for it, why are you upset? The problem only arises if you can't pay for it. Are you making a million excuses because you feel bad spending on camp? This is one reason Jews moved AWAY from the city. To give their kids a healthier life, not only during the summer. No one expects a parent to entertain all day, every day. Kids can do things in the house, with friends. There are less expensive city programs. And, since when is a mother of five KEH supposed to be anything BUT a dishrag at the end of the day? You expect to go ballroom dancing every night after taking care of your brood?
Since when is stating an opinion based on facts, judging? People use the word judging to counter opinions which make them uncomfortable. If my opinion makes you uncomfortable, you need to think about why that may be. Again, anyone who can afford anything, or find the means to pay for it, gezunteh heit. And if it does't happen, move on to plan B. There is always a plan B.
I also wonder this: if life is so tough for young mothers that they feel they need things that used to be luxuries, what will be when they are in their forties and fifties, still with decent sized families but with a lot less energy and stamina? What luxury will they need then, to keep their sanity and their lives in order?
you make some interesting points. I would like to point out one reason young sahms need certain things more than in the past. in the past, there was a large community of sahms. everyone was able to socialize, get their kids together, etc. now, we are few and far between. many of us don't have friends we can socialize with regularly, and socializing is important for keeping one's sanity, especially when the kids are home all day. summer is especially hard since many families go elsewhere for the summer. so there really is no support system for a sahm.
however, I still believe that in most cases, camp is not a necessity.
