Tamiri - I understand. I just don't think that thread should be taken as a sign of the times too quickly. For each person talking about how camp is a necessity, there are 2-3 others (of the same age, living in the same country) saying it isn't.
I agree that the difference is in whether camp is the norm or not. Personally the norm where I lived was "hang out," or as we got older, "get a job," but I can see how if the norm were to send kids to camp it would be much harder to be one of the few kids who isn't going, or one of the few parents who can't afford to send their kid.
I'm really, really glad my kids are older. It's a different world now. And don't forget, in the US there's no school for up to 10 weeks. It's not pashut, especially in the city for kids to be on the streets.
Some of my kids are older too, as in finished a BA after the army and another finishing the army any day now. It's not a different world. It's Jews, apparently particularly frum ones, adapting an inner-city mentality of "I deserve". The world is the same. We, too, have a 10 week break from grade 7 and up. And 8 weeks for the younger children. It's no picnic. And things are expensive here in Israel....
What has changed in the world? Houses have always needed to be cleaned. These days, the "deserving but can't afford it" crowd have someone do it for them. The houses didn't change; the balabustes did. Families have always needed to be fed but take-out wasn't that common. Today, the slightest bit of stress sends those "deserving but can't afford it" people to the take-out store, because, well, they deserve it. Food has NOT become more complicated to prepare in the past couple of decades. Take my word for that. And now, camp is "standard" even more so for the "deserving but can't afford it crowd". I can't for the life of me understand why!
FTR, I'm keeping my kids home this summer. THey are 3, 1.5 and newborn. Everyone has been telling me I'm crazy and they should go to camp, but I realize that if I keep them home and do fun things iwth them myself, then I can stay home longer. In a few weeks my paid maternity ends and if I send the kids to camp it will be really expensive. Why would I do that?
(Never mind we are having a lot of fun this summer doing mainly free things plus gas...)
You are my hero, Saw. I was a SAHM as you know, and I paid the financial price. My choice. Even with a healthy DH income, we just had to make choices and camp on a regular basis for more than one kid at a time just wasn't one of them.
Take your kids up rt 17 to the State Park (I can't remember it's name) fab lake and beach, for nearly free (an annual membership was $35 IIRC when we lived there, for all the state parks). Or Shepherd's Lake near Monsey. To me, it's more work to get them out of the house in the am than to just wake up, smell the roses, and do whatever.
my kids school requires camp with learning or no school in september. I cannot really afford it, but I find the money because otherwise, there is no school. to top it all off, we work from home, if the kids are home and we cant work, we cant feed them. You dont realize all the issues involved, and its unfair to call All SAHM with kid in camp spoiled.
Tamiri - I understand. I just don't think that thread should be taken as a sign of the times too quickly. For each person talking about how camp is a necessity, there are 2-3 others (of the same age, living in the same country) saying it isn't.
I agree that the difference is in whether camp is the norm or not. Personally the norm where I lived was "hang out," or as we got older, "get a job," but I can see how if the norm were to send kids to camp it would be much harder to be one of the few kids who isn't going, or one of the few parents who can't afford to send their kid.
It's only hard for those who aren't "shalem" with their lives. You do what life allows you to do, not what the Cohen's life allows them to do.
I don't get it. Why do city kids have to be "on the streets" for ten weeks. We also have ten weeks vacation for the older girls, from June 20 to Sept. 1. So? That's a great time to spend a week painting your room (free labor), that's a great time to organize your toys and clothing and to learn organization in general. It's a great time to find an elderly neighbor and help HER organize her kitchen or other stuff and believe me, many are so happy to get a pair of young helping hands.
I'm not talking about a five year old painting his room alone. But let me tell you, give them a smock and a paintbrush and let them do the bottom part of the wall. My little ones when little were great at running after me with a wet rag to clean up the mess that I (that's a CAPITAL I) would make dripping paint. If you make something into a game you can enjoy almost anything.
If you aren't a SAHM it's a problem. But heck I wasn't and my kids survived too. I'm with you Tamiri, this sense of "I'm not strong enough" and "I can't" is just too much. There is TV, there is radio, there are tapes, or videos or whatever charedi kids see on the computer (permitted CDs). I remember getting my kids free computer games from work from someone, simple stuff like pacman ( yeah it was a long time ago) but as six year olds and eight year olds and ten year olds it was great for them.
Use your local library, like Barbara said, use local resources. Take your kids on trips if you are a SAHM. Let the house go to hell, let the food go to hell, go and have a wonderful time!
Now if you have ten kids and can't stand the heat..and have to send them away for your sanity...well in my book that's one reason maybe YOU shouldn't have had those ten kids in the first place.
Just as a side note, My friend's husband has been out of work for the whole year. They DO NOT have money. She had a baby this year. She has 6 year old twins. Her house is tense with DH home all day. They are used to being financially stable and are not taking to this well at all. On top of this, she is a sahm for the last 7 years. She is one of those people who are not capable. ALways having migraines, if there are 2 things going on at once she will lose it emotionally. Its a bit more complicated than that. On the outside she looks put together and able to manage, so you would not know all this from knowing her even as a neighbor.
Do you think her kids HAVE to go to camp, or should they stay home and make mom literally crazy and that will totally break the home apart? I do not have an easy answer for this................
I think the big difference is between EY and shmutz laaretz. Lots of people want to get their kids out of the city and into nature for the summer - hence bungalows, sleep away camp, etc. Especially for people without cars.
I work full time, so camp is my only option unless I want to bankrupt myself.
I'm realistic. I realized this year when my almost 9yo said she wanted to go away to sleep away camp with her cousin and her classmates, that a) I could not afford it this year, and b) that I need to start saving NOW for sleep away camp 2012. One month in sleep away camp for one child is more expensive than keeping two kids in day camp for the entire summer. I'm fortunate that my day camp lets me make payments over the course of the year, but I'm pretty sure sleep away camp is going to want the money upfront.
It just becomes another "envelope" that I need to put money into each paycheck.
My kids are too little to leave at home alone unsupervised, but I'm guessing around bat mitzvah time it will be easier.
There are lots of other reasons why people put into camp.
For the record, I posted on that thread (not as the OP). I am sooo not spoiled. In fact I was surprised by the air conditioning thread because I sleep without air conditioner and only put it on on days when it gets unbearable... You may not be talking to me because I'm not asking for tzedaka to send to camp, but don't I get prioritize my own spending if I keep within my budget? Maybe I decided camp is more important than replacing broken furniture. (I only usually send half a summer).
We decided that camp was a priority as well. That means that the closet doors are staying broken, Shabbat meals will continue to revolve around 99 cent a pound chicken wings, and I won't get a vacation for yet another year. Even then, I recognize that camp is a luxury. Its a luxury that's good for my child, but still a luxury.
I don't think anyone is talking about people who prioritize spending and do without to send their kids to camp-- the frustration is with people who "deserve" a summer off from their children so much so that other people should be responsible for footing the bill. I went to a lot of camp as a child, largely educational ones because my parents were not impressed by the school curriculum. 14 year old Shoshina was in community college courses while everyone else was at sleepaway camp...I sure did NOT feel spoiled, but my parents had to find the money for that too...
I think what's different now is that people are more exposed to views in other circles. Fifteen years ago the Internet was slow enough that I wouldn't bother to spend time finding out what New Yorkers thought about summer camp, today even small-town girls like me can learn via forums like this one that there's a whole other world out there, with very different norms.
Tamiri, without imamother and the like, would you have known that there are people who think camp is a necessity even for the children of SAHMs, or that there are circles where 20-year-old newlyweds-to-be are expected to exchange diamond jewelry and $3,000 watches and the like? I sure wouldn't have.
But I bet those people existed 20 years ago too, just without the forum in which to share their customs with the rest of the world.
There are lots of other reasons why people put into camp.
No question about that. But you can't wake up at the end of June and expect to find money because you "deserve it". Plan a bit, ladies!
LOLOLOL
Tamiri, I am probably the BIGGEST Yekke in my neighborhood. (nothing happens on time in Lubavitch, much less EARLY)
I was hocking camp from January for costs, schedule, forms, etc. Nothing was available until after Pesach. And at that time I was informed that due to budget cuts: a) there was no discount anymore for multiple children, b) the cost went up $25/week/child, c) there was NO negotiation/"camp sponsored scholarship" as there were in years past. Add in to the fact that my youngest went from lower to upper division (price increase), and my cost DOUBLED from last year. Now I expected that my costs would go up a reasonable amount because of my youngest changing divisions, but to DOUBLE was a BIG hit. I work full time so not sending them wasn't an option. My camp lets me pay out over time, and since I pay all my bills every two weeks (ie I get paid, I pay the bills), it was very big hit to come out of my paycheck. I wasn't prepared. I would have found the money but it still, it was kind of late in the game to find out in May...
I think there is a big difference when you live in a suburban location or a dusty inner city. I live in a nice suburb with beautiful parks nearby and beaches and forests and beautiful countryside a short drive away. And we have a car to get us there! So having the kids home for 8 weeks is no problem. (although, we always go on a two week vacation so that breaks up the summer) We do lots of fun things. Although with older kids that can be more challanging - at some point they want to hang out with friends, not family.
Saw50state - a 3 year old, 1 year old and baby SHOULD be home with their mother and would probably prefer that. If you would send the to camp it would be for YOUR benefit, not theirs. But older kids may very well be whining all day and need attention and full time entertainment. And might be bored without their friends.
I think what's different now is that people are more exposed to views in other circles. Fifteen years ago the Internet was slow enough that I wouldn't bother to spend time finding out what New Yorkers thought about summer camp, today even small-town girls like me can learn via forums like this one that there's a whole other world out there, with very different norms.
Tamiri, without imamother and the like, would you have known that there are people who think camp is a necessity even for the children of SAHMs, or that there are circles where 20-year-old newlyweds-to-be are expected to exchange diamond jewelry and $3,000 watches and the like? I sure wouldn't have.
But I bet those people existed 20 years ago too, just without the forum in which to share their customs with the rest of the world.
ora, ya know... I lived in a LOT of places with a lot of different types. The only places I "missed" were Lakewood and, to an extent, Brooklyn. Even though both I am my parents are NYC born... Whatever I would not have gotten here, I would have read in Rebbetzin Jungreis' column, which is where I first found out about Jewish entitlement anyway. Way before Imamother.
When my FATHER, was just a lad growing up in Brooklyn, and his family was down on their luck and couldn't fund the "must have" camp (my grandmother wanted fresh air for her boys), you know what they did? My uncles worked as waiters and my grandmother worked as a "dietician" which is a nice way to say cook, at camp. As an only child, my mother got camp from her parents, both of whom worked. Oh, did I mention this was in the 1930s and 40s?
My parents moved us to Monsey when I was 1 yo and trust me: there were plenty of summers I was not sent to camp.
So maybe part of family planning is also where you choose to live? Maybe you need to take into account that camp and the bungalow colony are part and parcel with living in the city.
I think the big difference is between EY and shmutz laaretz. Lots of people want to get their kids out of the city and into nature for the summer - hence bungalows, sleep away camp, etc. Especially for people without cars.
Could you explain this better please?
There are cities in EY too. We don't all live on the banks of the Kinneret.
And all the comments about whiny children - you people with a sense of entitlement (I mean you in general, nothing to do with your post, am) are the ones who taught your kids to whine.
Last edited by shalhevet on Wed, Jun 29 2011, 8:52 am; edited 1 time in total
Family quality of life is for sure something people don't think about. In St. Louis the camps are cheaper than NY and a lot fo acitvities are free: the zoo and science museum to name a couple. Parks are every few blocks, too. And no kosher takeout to spend money on that you don't have. lol
I haven't read most of the thread, but I think this comes from a sense of entitlement.
Why do so many people who discuss WIC and food stamps, etc. have cleaning ladies???
I never had a cleaning lady growing up. We went out to eat very rarely and we weren't poor. It's just a different sense of priorities. And no sense of embarrassment when it comes to taking from the gov;t,
I also dont think camp is a must have... What happened to wanting ti spend time with our kids and enjoying them?
When I was younger, we would stay home the first 1/2 of the sumnmer and my mother would do things with us, we'd go to bed late & wake up late... also it's a great time for all the projects that we wanted to do but never got around to.. like sewing, doing our rooms etc...
I hope to one day send my kids to sleepaway camp... but I will only send them assuming we can afford it.
I think the big difference is between EY and shmutz laaretz. Lots of people want to get their kids out of the city and into nature for the summer - hence bungalows, sleep away camp, etc. Especially for people without cars.
Could you explain this better please?
There are cities in EY too. We don't all live on the banks of the Kinneret.
And all the comments about whiny children - you people with a sense of entitlement (I mean you in general, nothing to do with your post, am) are the ones who taught your kids to whine.
"Cities" in EY are different, at least in my mind then they are in America. I lived in Jerusalem, and while some areas were "crowded" like geulah, meah shearim, etc., most of Jerusalem was FAR MORE spread out, suburban-like, then Crown Heights, Boro Park, and Willy. Jerusalem has a better bus system then NYC, and more parks at least in my mind.
Jerusalem was a city built with children in mind, NYC not so much.
Jerusalem feels safer to me (ha ha right?) because almost everyone you encounter is Jewish - Am Yisroel right? Whereas in NYC, it's a greater mix of people, everyone living so close together, I find NYers in general are angrier, etc.
I've lived here for 15 years. Beyond the occasional shabbos at friends in NJ or CT, I think I've gone on "vacation" a total of 4 times if you include the two women's only retreats I went on when family member was very sick. We've been planing for a year to go away to a cabin in Maine for a week this summer. And the only reason why we're doing it is because I've reached the point of either we go on vacation or I'm going to have a midlife crisis and run away and leave everyone behind. Note we're not going to a fancy hotel, we're going to a cabin in the woods where I will still have to cook and entertain everyone.
I am finally beginning to understand why people "need" to go to the country. Living here can certainly beat you down.
Last edited by aidelmaidel on Wed, Jun 29 2011, 8:58 am; edited 1 time in total
I'd think there'd be aspects of city life that make it easier to have kids at home there. In a more suburban area kids can play outside and ride bikes, but in the city you have museums with attractions for children, libraries, cultural events, music... and you usually have some kind of sports available as well for kinds inclined in that direction (soccer clubs, community centers, etc).
Yeah it's nice to ride bikes, but it's really not so much easier to keep a kid entertained all summer with nothing to do but ride bikes, especially if they aren't the sporty type (I once started the summer riding my bike... I did that for an hour, then the dentist for two hours... ).
