Nittel on Friday nite?

↑ Besiyata Dishmaya ↓

Sun, Dec 26 2010, 3:45 pm

shalhevet wrote:

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

For some reason there are those who think that Nittel is a chassidishe minhag when actually it started way before the Baal Shem Tov and Chassidus. The question is why there are non-chassidim who don't keep it?

Maybe because it contradicts the SA? (who also lived after yemach shemo v'zichro) I suggest you call up Rav Elyashiv and Reb Chaim Kanievsky and Reb Dovid Soleiveitchik and Rav BenZion Mutzafi and Rav Shteinmann and all the other non-chassidish gedolei Yisroel and ask them.

First, some of these Gedolim may even keep Nittel. You don't know for sure that they all don't.
Second, even if any of them don't, it's no proof, as there are some who hold that in Eretz Yisroel it's not relevant.
Third, it would make more sense for you as a Litvishe to ask them.

Quote:

BTW, the story brought above about getting gehinom for learning Torah is about Erev TB AFAIK.

No, it was definitely Nittel. I double checked it with my DH.

Raisin wrote:

freidasima wrote:

Raisin, someone I know who teaches history once said that what "really happened" doesn't matter, only what you think happens. So who cares when watshiszname was really born...it's only when people think that he was born that is important.......

That is exactly my question. If I live in brooklyn or London and locally the non Jews observe the 25th pf december the fact that my grandfather lived in poland and there they keep it on a different day does not mean I should keep the polish nittel if I live in Brooklyn.

rosehill wrote:

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

In the Old Country, it was dangerous to leave your home on Nittel Nacht, as there was the fear of inciting an angry mob. AFAIK, that is why people stopped learning on this night...so that they wouldn't have to go to ask the neighbor a question, or walk home alone from the Yeshiva. (I wonder if women refrained from going to the mikva on nittel nacht)

Your question is really a larger one. Why do some people continue keep minhagim when the reason for their origination no longer exists, while others pasken that once the reason is gone, the minhag too is ablished?

I would guess that Middle Eastern Jews never adopted this "minhag".

Raisin, if you hold by Rosehill’s theory, you have a valid question. But since obvsiously this was not the reason for not learning and proof to this is Rosehill’s theory itself where today there are no pogroms and there were many years of no pogroms and still Gedolei Yisroel were keeping this minhag worldwide. It's not like blowing shofar on Shabbos and you might need someone to teach you. A person can learn on his own. He would need no reason to leave his home. And as if there were no pogroms at other times.

Raisin wrote:

the thing that doesn't make sense to me is keeping it on a day that is not applicable to your location. Nowadays x-mas is celebrated on 24th-25th. some people (russia? spain) still stick to keeping it on 6th of Jan. So if you live in a place where it is kept on the 25th, why would you keep nittel on the 6th of jan?

I mean these dates are all arbitary anyway, I don't think they really know for sure when watzisname was born.

Here are my posts from last year which explains this:

Quote:

The non-Jewish year consists of 365(+.25) days. Every 4 years is a leap year to take care of those extra 6 hours. Several hundred years ago a certain pope decided that since it’s not exactly 6 hours but more or less, there is an error in the calendar which had been accumulating over hundreds of years. Thus the calculation is not accurate but a difference of 13 days. He concluded that Dec. 25 is really on Jan. 6. However, not all the countries agreed with his new decision and continued keeping their holiday on the 25th, while others switched it to the 6th and some to the 5th.

Quote:

Most Litvishe don't hold from Nittel.
For some chassidim it's on the 25th of Dec. between 6:00 p.m. and 12:00 a.m.
For some chassidim it's on the 24th of Dec. between 6:00 p.m. and 12:00 a.m.
For some chassidim it's on the 6th of Jan. between 12:00 p.m. and 12:00 a.m.
For some chassidim (esp. in Israel) it's on the 6th of Jan. between 6:00 p.m. and 12:00 a.m.
For some chassidim it's both on the 25th and on the 6th of Jan.
For some chassidim it's on the 5th of Jan.

PinkFridge wrote:

Very serious question, and by now people know where I'm coming from so I'm not trying to start up with anyone.
From the non-Chassidish side, it seems very strange but we respect it.
From the side of the nittel observers, I wonder, do they look at us as if we're messing it up by contributing to the tuma, and if only we would see the light and not learn, etc. for that period?

Perhaps there are chassidishe Rebbes who would answer you.

↑ shalhevet ↓

Sun, Dec 26 2010, 4:13 pm

GR wrote:

Marina, the person I asked about the kelipos told me it's the same idea as not learning in the bathroom. I understand your question goes deeper and I do want to look into it more to understand exactly how kelipos workand why they seem to have power.

This doesn't answer my question (remember I have the same one?) We don't learn in the bathroom because it is disrespectful to Hashem to learn/ say something holy in a place that's not clean/ where we carry out necessary bodily functions etc. Nothing to do with kelipos.

(I am honestly interested - please do not take my questions as starting up despite my history here Wink

. I am really interested in understanding. Not that I think anyone else should change their minhag, but it's fascinating.)

BTW, I read over the old thread and TR quoted the Chasam Sofer there. He said the reason for not learning before chatzos was that everyone would learn after chatzos instead and there wouldn't be a kitrug against the Jews not serving Hashem while all the Xians were on their way to midnight mass. Now, that sounds like a good reason... So do any of the people here who don't learn before chatzos make sure to learn after?

↑ freidasima

Sun, Dec 26 2010, 6:21 pm

Well I only remember part of what my father z" taught me about this inyan but here goes.
The issue is not really that kabbalistic but more realistic, meaning it has to do with how non jews perceived things and as Jews were living in non jewish (read: Xtian) lands here starts the problem.

non jews celebrate the day of birth. Jews commemorate the day of death. We don't know from birthdays and we don't keep from birthdays originally since the time of the Tanach, we celebrate weaning, we celebrate bris, we celebrate (hilula) going into the next world but non jews as opposed to us, make a big deal out of birthdays, of their saints for example, of the Yoshkeleh for example etc.

If Yidden would be seen by non jews as learning on the night of the Yoshkeleh's birth, it would be said then by the non jews that the Yidden were honoring the Yoshkeleh. So until chatzos, when they went to their midnight mass, you didn't learn so that no [gentile] could go into a Jewish home (seems that they had a habit of doing that) and see Yidden learning. It wasn't "leilui nishmas" but rather so that it wouldn't appear to non jews that we were honoring "him".

As for the business about learning right after Chtatzos, I definitely do remember something about that Shal, and this was long before the Chasam Sofer, you learned when you knew that the non jews were in their Mass, so that you wouldn't have a day (meaning since nightfall) without learning at least one small inyan, and as a protection from what might happen after (if they came out of that mass and went straight to make a pogrom).

So you didn't go to sleep right after chatzos, literally midnight in this case, but learned, did tikun chatzos, by which time it was around 1 AM, the midnight mass was over and hopefully all the non jews were back in bed and you could go to sleep.

Now, this was a REAL inyan in many places. My father was born at the begining of the 20th century, before WWI in a small town in Poland which I visited years ago, and he used to tell me how there was a church at the end of the street and the Galachs used to walk up and down the street and he would see them reflected in the window from the gas lights (the town got gas lights around 1910) and it was really scary. And that when Nittel came around his father and mother and grandparents who lived with them told him to go to sleep and be very quiet so that the Galachs coming out of their mass wouldn't want to come and see what the noise was in the Yiddishe houses...

Well when I went there in the 1980s for the first time, to Poland that is, and saw the house and the church...and I saw a bunch of Galachs dressed like they must have 80 years earlier, walk out and down the street, I could understand the stories...it was scary to see, we didn't see much stuff like that in the good old USof A and certainly not in EY..

In any case, lots of minhogim having to do with it, but until you realize what it was like to be a really small Yiddishe minority surrounded by a bunch of non jews on Nittel....it's sounds like a bubbeh maiseh. But when you see it with your own eyes, all of a sudden...it's real.

↑ shalhevet

Mon, Dec 27 2010, 2:18 am

GR, I read the article and tried to understand it. The main idea I'm familiar with.

Quote:

G-d created “one thing opposite the other.” A Jew is composite of two distinct souls. His Nefesh Elokit, which is comprised of ten soul powers whose source is in the supernal Sefirot, is juxtaposed with the Nefesh HaBehamit, also possessing ten soul powers. The soul powers of the Nefesh Elokit strive for Kedushah and the soul powers of the Nefesh HaBehamit long for Kelipah. These two souls vie for control of a person’s thoughts, speech, and action, which are often referred to as “garments” of the soul. A person is constantly faced with a choice to either flood the soul garments with Kedushah or garments of Kelipah. If a person allows the Nefesh HaBehamit control of the mind, then the soul garments may be contaminated by the impurities of the animal drive. These impurities are vain and ruin the spirit.

But this is my question. Let's say the night of 24th December has more tuma than any other time (I'm not convinced of this either, especially in a world absolutely full of tuma, or as marina said that there are other az holidays round the year.). So now we should elevate it, we should drive away the kelipah by adding kedusha, not by "joining" the tuma by not learning Torah.

I also find the idea pretty absurd in EY. Those who live here know we BH mamash don't feel the 25th December is any different to any other day. So by someone marking nittel they are giving credence to the secular calendar and the "importance" of the day instead of just getting on with their usual routine.

↑ Besiyata Dishmaya ↓

Mon, Dec 27 2010, 6:31 am

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

Raisin wrote:

freidasima wrote:

rosehill wrote:

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

Rosehill, also if Nittel was because of the pogroms shouldn’t they have included in this minhag not to go to the mikva because of the danger? (Although we should try to postpone the mitzvah of relation for after chatzos.)

Rosehill wrote:

Why do we not refrain from learning on Mohammed's birthday? Or the birthdays of the Hindu gods?

The Muslim religion, as well as Hinduism and Buddhism came after Xtianity. Besides, the Muslims believe in one G-d and Hinduism and Buddhism was never started by an individual.

RR wrote:

Totally guessing but maybe Dec 25 is different because as apposed to all those other dates, Yoshke was actually a Jew...? And his neshama which is trapped by klipa can therefor get chayus from our torah? Or rather the klipa uses his neshama to get chayus...

I believe this is the reason.

freidasima wrote:

If Yidden would be seen by non jews as learning on the night of the Yoshkeleh's birth, it would be said then by the non jews that the Yidden were honoring the Yoshkeleh. So until chatzos, when they went to their midnight mass, you didn't learn so that no [gentile] could go into a Jewish home (seems that they had a habit of doing that) and see Yidden learning. It wasn't "leilui nishmas" but rather so that it wouldn't appear to non jews that we were honoring "him".

As for the business about learning right after Chtatzos, I definitely do remember something about that Shal, and this was long before the Chasam Sofer, you learned when you knew that the non jews were in their Mass, so that you wouldn't have a day (meaning since nightfall) without learning at least one small inyan, and as a protection from what might happen after (if they came out of that mass and went straight to make a pogrom).

So you didn't go to sleep right after chatzos, literally midnight in this case, but learned, did tikun chatzos, by which time it was around 1 AM, the midnight mass was over and hopefully all the non jews were back in bed and you could go to sleep.

Right. Generally those who keep Nittel try to learn after chatzos.

marina wrote:

GR wrote:

Thanks GR, I looked over the 2006 thread you cited and TR does give a lot of sources, but doesn't really address my question, other than by saying that at some point the klippos become so strong that they can grab from the kedusha. I don't understand why that would be true anymore of Dec 25 than of easter or any other holiday, esp idolatrous ones that are celebrated by millions of chinese & indian hindus & buddhists, etc.

Could you understand why tzaddikim said that playing cards that have hearts and spades, etc. on them are big klippos and each symbol represents another klippah?

Klippos is not the same as tuma and it’s not like someone learning in the bathroom. It has to do with the Sitra Achra and is the opposite of Kedusha.

shalhevet wrote:

I also find the idea pretty absurd in EY. Those who live here know we BH mamash don't feel the 25th December is any different to any other day. So by someone marking nittel they are giving credence to the secular calendar and the "importance" of the day instead of just getting on with their usual routine.

This might be because we’re still in golus even in our own land. Perhaps if there would be no tiflas and all the tuma and klippos it brings about, the Gedolim would have abolished it in Eretz Yisroel.

↑ gryp

Mon, Dec 27 2010, 8:12 am

shalhevet wrote:

GR, I read the article and tried to understand it. The main idea I'm familiar with.

Quote:

1)The article explains that there are two kinds of kelipah- one is a "lighter" form that can be elevated through our simple actions (ie. mitzvos and kavanos), the other is the kind connected to nittel nacht. This kind of tumah is called "Shalosh Kelipos Hatemaios." This darker type of kelipah cannot be elevated ever- except through a person's teshuva or by Hashem Himself when Moshiach comes (V'Anochi A'avir Ruach Hatumah Min Ha'aretz- I hope those are the exact words). When this type of tumah is present, the klipos try and attach on to whatever they can that would give them chayus, since they don't get chayus (life's sustenance) directly from Hashem.

Making brochos/davening/benching are all klipas nogah- the type of klipah that is elevated through these actions. That's why they aren't nogeah here. There isn't anything to latch on to for chayus since the klipah is uplifted.

2) I don't really see the argument about EY. Nazareth and Bethlehem are closer to you than to me, I believe. So you aren't surrounded by it, you don't go by the English calendar- there are communities here who do the same. The point is the day the rest of the world keeps- like it said in one of the sources in the other thread- the day that the Ak"um around you keep.

One thing I want to clarify is exactly what is it about Torah learning that the Shalosh Kelipos want to latch on to it. It is different than the other mitzvos which elevate only klipas nogah. Iunderstand why and how Torah learning is different than other mitzvos but I'm not making the connection here.

normama

Mon, Dec 27 2010, 10:00 am

shalhevet wrote:

Besiyata Dishmaya wrote:

phew! I know the litvish are a minority here, but thanks for that. when I first heard about this I nearly hit the roof.
a. "he" (if he existed at all) was not born, nor did he die on this day.
this wintertime day was chosen for pagan reasons (the missionaries needed to adapt x-tianity to pagan culture and the winter solstice holiday)
b. if the reason is for pogroms then why would this apply today?
c. if the reason is for extra tumah, wouldn't adding extra kedushah to the world make more sense?
ok. I'm off my soap box.
if you're chassidish, do your minhag. but if you're not, don't go adding this minhag without asking your rav.

greentiger ↓

Mon, Dec 27 2010, 2:45 pm

There was a fascinating piece in Mishpacha's Kolmus discussing this minhag. I just dug it out. First of all, how or why this minhag originated is not completely clear to anyone since it was a custom that was kept quiet out of fear of how the non jews would handle it.
-The Chasam sofer quotes his rebbi, r' nosson adler to explain its a form of aveilus, yet disputes this bec we don't keep other forms of aveilus on this night. The chasam sofer feels the reason of postponing learning till midnight is so that the jews will sleep early and wake at midnight to learn. This will be a great zechus for them on a day when other nations are all involved in idol worship. In hungarian communities the custom was indeed to rise at midnight to learn.
-sefer hapardes: in previous generations, the enemies of the jews would lie in ambush on this night to attack the jews, so the gedolim decreed that people should stay at home that night and not go out to the streets.
-darchei yoel: in germany when the gentiles saw lights in jewish homes on their holiday, they would start pogroms. Therefore it was decreed to not kindle light which led to no learning.