DD's......lackings

BrachaVHatzlocha

Mon, Jul 17 2006, 2:36 pm

ok, my opinion..I agree with the poster who said allow it except where it's not acceptable.
from what it sounds, she's still basically tzanua, just "lax" in certain things. by the way, if her knees are covered, she's halachically tzniyus. it's "only" minhag hamakom to wear socks. and as long as her collar bone is covered, she's fine.
but if it's not tzanua, I really don't know what to tell you. You don't want to pus her further away, but you do want to encourage tzniyus. I have the same problem with my 17 year old sister.
I like the idea of the mother who said that it's portraying her wrong....
anyone have any other ideas of how not to be PUSHY??

↑ Crayon210 ↓

Mon, Jul 17 2006, 2:39 pm

BrachaVHatzlocha wrote:

I would ask a rav before making that particular determination on one's own. It can be a very slippery slope...

↑ Ruchel ↓

Mon, Jul 17 2006, 2:47 pm

Crayon210 wrote:

Unfortunately, a lot of men aren't well versed in the halachos of tznius and the severity of not keeping tznius, and they often like to be seen with wives who dress inappropriately. Sad

It's true that not all men know all the details, in general they know the knee-elbow rule and that's all. I have also noticed that for people on the same "level", men are less likely to find tights/socks useful or to be machmir about the collarbone rule.
Anyway, yes it is true that some men like to have wives dressed untsnius or "tsnius with a twist", like tight clothes, stilettoes... I have noticed it in Israel recently, I naively thought it only happened in non frum couples. But sometimes it is the wife who feels she needs it, and not the man.

↑ Ruchel

Mon, Jul 17 2006, 2:52 pm

soonamommy wrote:

Most girls know when they are "outside of their boundaries." They know the rules and are just trying to see what happens if they... (will lightning strike? will their parents scream and yell?)

Yes, many children just want to see the boundaries, and if the parents don't enforce them they'll go even farther just to see. That's why imho when the parents are totally laxist, the children will search for confrontation with other people (fights in the streets, police...).

Now, I would be divided between two options:
- stay strong, tell her what you can't tolerate and why, and try to convince her of the good things in being tsnius
- compromise, like she stays within halachic clothes but without chumros.

The second option could create less conflict, but if chumros are important in your circles it could be problematic if she adopts this style forever.

JRKmommy

Tue, Jul 18 2006, 6:37 am

How about simply saying "Honey, I've noticed that you've been doing X. I think you know my feelings about it, but I wonder if you could tell my your feelings and thoughts on this issue."

Then, sit back and listen. Really listen.

She already knows your standards. What she may not know is how to deal with being a teenager, with all the peer pressure and impulsiveness and desire for independence that entails. She's making the transition from simply following your rules to adopting beliefs and practices as her own. By listening to her answer, you'll have a better idea of where she is at. In addition, she may be prompted to think fully about this issue for herself - and if she fully commits herself to certain standards, she'll have the strength to maintain them, regardless of her desire to fit in with friends.

mumsy23

Tue, Jul 18 2006, 6:57 am

SarahG,

I am pretty young and can still remember my highschool days, and those "teenage" years. I was always pretty interested in tznius and yiddishkeit (mainly because I became frum early in high school) but I hung out with the "rebellious" girls in school. (mainly because I felt I can relate to them the most).

Anyway, I was friends with your daughter! (not literally) and I know exactly what you are talking about. I feel very strongly, that these type of situations should not be approached negatively and really, the more you resist, the more she will want to do it. I understand that you do not want to come off as condoning such behavior, but at the same time, being "strict" about it can really push her away. I have seen several good but rebellious girls go so far off just because of the bad reactions they got from parents, mechanchim etc...

I also feel that every situation is unique and you really need tlo know your daughter and act according to how you think she will accept your actions. "Chanoch Hanar al pi darko", While for some it would work to "not allow her to go out in such dress", for others it may just cause resentment and sneaking behind your back. You need to really sit down and think about what makes her tick and how far you can really push her without pushing her away.

One of my dearest friends was going through a phase like this in high school (and probably still is) and I saw first hand from her, how negative reactions effected her. There were times when I could see she was really trying, she put on a skirt that was really long enough, and buttoned her top button, but then a teacher came up to her and told her that her underwear line is showing through her skirt and that she should change into a more appropriate skirt (not because it was see through but because it was a little tight, so the line was kind of "bumpy"). This one comment would cause her to spiral and it would take weeks before she even made an effort! So I urge you and all of you mothers that may be in similar situations, there is a saying that is somehting like "you will attract a bee with honey better than with vinegar".

Be kind and loving and make sure she knows you are there for her no matter what. You don't have to hide the fact that you disapprove of such dress, but IMO harping on it and nagging your daughter will only push her to do worse. Again, every child is different, I just hope you keep this in mind when making your decision.