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-> Judaism
Do you think taking care of children is a spiritual activity?
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| Definitely. |
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81% |
[ 43 ] |
| Only the making brachos, telling the parsha kind of activities. |
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7% |
[ 4 ] |
| No. Washing, feeding, diapering etc. is not spiritual. |
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11% |
[ 6 ] |
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| Total Votes : 53 |
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stem
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 Tue, Jun 20 2006, 1:49 pm
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I had a cleaning lady for the first time a couple of weeks ago, and I was surprised at the feeling of dissapointment that I felt. It was like I was missing my chance to do all these things myself. It made no sense since I was thrilled to have the help, but somehow, I had the feeling that I was missing out on something (spiritual?).
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Motek
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Tue, Jun 20 2006, 2:08 pm
| stem wrote: | | somehow, I had the feeling that I was missing out on something (spiritual?). |
a thought - maybe it was the scary thought that you are expendable, that someone else can be paid to do what you do
response to that thought - for cleaning, yes, others, including non-Jews, can clean just as well if not better than you/us, but our identities as Jews and women is not about cleaning!
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shalhevet
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Tue, Jun 20 2006, 2:59 pm
| Motek wrote: |
Are you (and others) saying that chesed=spiritual?
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Yes, chesed is a mitzva. More than that, it is making us more like Hashem, one of Whose middas is chesed. I don't think you can get more spiritual than that.
| Quote: | | What about this - I have read and heard that it is very important to get household help. So tell me, if you clean the house, it's spiritual. What about if the Polish or Mexican lady cleans your house. Is that spiritual for them? |
Why is it important to get household help? I have never heard that.  But I imagine it would be a positive thing if it frees a mother up for other things if she doesn't have time for everything she needs to do herself. And in some situations it is absolutely neccessary.
For us, it's spiritual because we're doing chesed and creating an environment for a Jewish home. When we clean and tidy we are making a pleasant and healthy environment. When we cook we are giving our dhs and children the strength to serve Hashem. etc. The cleaning lady is earning money. (Of course if it's a Jewish cleaning lady and her intention is to do chesed with you and your family, it's spiritual for her too.)
| Quote: |
If you're too busy or distracted to think about your home being a miniature mikdash and your work in the home as the avoda of the kohanim, is what you do spiritual regardless? Or only if you have that intent?
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Is a bracha spiritual only if you have intent? Is eating matza spiritual only if you have intent?
No, of course a mitzva remains a (spiritual) mitzva even without intent. But it is enhanced by intent. There are also differing levels of kavana (intent) with a mitzva. E.g. eating matza because you know it's Seder night and didn't just find a piece in the street and happened to eat it on the right night, is the lowest level of intent. Similarly if you know in theory you are doing chessed that is one level. If before every action you think,"I am about to change this diaper in order to emulate Hashem's midda (trait) of chessed", that is a much higher level.
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Motek
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Tue, Jun 20 2006, 3:11 pm
| mummyof6 wrote: | | Why is it important to get household help? |
You're a mummy of 6 and you're asking that? 
| Quote: | | No, of course a mitzva remains a (spiritual) mitzva even without intent. |
True for eating matza on Pesach, putting on tefillin, even losing money on the street and a poor person finding it and using it.
But for washing the woodwork? I don't think so. Because unlike matza, tefillin and tzedaka, washing the woodwork is not inherently a mitzva. It's a mitzva if you make it into one with your intent.
It's in the category of "reshus" (optional things) that are elevated if done "for the sake of heaven."
There's the idea of "know Him in all your ways", in those non-obligatory-mitzva areas of our lives. If you "know Him" then it's a mitzva. If it's done mindlessly or for one's self, it is not a mitzva.
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shalhevet
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Tue, Jun 20 2006, 3:23 pm
| Motek wrote: | | mummyof6 wrote: | | Why is it important to get household help? |
You're a mummy of 6 and you're asking that? |
Motek, it sounded like it was practically a mitzva midoraisa to get help. I think it depends on the situation. If a mother can manage everything herself then it is a beautiful thing that she is doing chesed with her family all day. In EY lots of women, even those with 6 kids, and even those who work often don't have help. I, personally, have a cleaning lady for 4 hours a week. And that is considered someone lucky with lots of help. If a mother is sick/weak/pregnant/after birth/ not coping it could be a real mitzva for her to get help. I just didn't agree with the blanket statement that it is always a great idea.
I had the feeling that there was an idea behind it (correct me if I'm wrong) that it's wonderful for a woman to get help with the dishes, laundry, cleaning etc so that she can get on with the spiritual things in life.
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | No, of course a mitzva remains a (spiritual) mitzva even without intent. |
True for eating matza on Pesach, putting on tefillin, even losing money on the street and a poor person finding it and using it.
But for washing the woodwork? I don't think so. Because unlike matza, tefillin and tzedaka, washing the woodwork is not inherently a mitzva. It's a mitzva if you make it into one with your intent. |
I think you brought a rather extreme example. 
Some women wash the woodwork for their own ego trip. Or because they are obsessed with cleanliness. Of course then it wouldn't be a mitzva (especially if they didn't have time to pay to their children because of it). But on the other hand, washing the woodwork when it's dirty/on an occasional basis/ before Pesach would certainly be a mitzva. As you explained:
| Quote: |
It's in the category of "reshus" (optional things) that are elevated if done "for the sake of heaven."
There's the idea of "know Him in all your ways", in those non-obligatory-mitzva areas of our lives. If you "know Him" then it's a mitzva. If it's done mindlessly or for one's self, it is not a mitzva. | [/quote]
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Motek
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Tue, Jun 20 2006, 3:40 pm
| mummyof6 wrote: | I just didn't agree with the blanket statement that it is always a great idea.
I had the feeling that there was an idea behind it (correct me if I'm wrong) that it's wonderful for a woman to get help with the dishes, laundry, cleaning etc so that she can get on with the spiritual things in life. |
Mrs. Braunstein a'h, mother of 11, teacher etc. strongly advised mothers to pay for help even if it meant eating only tuna. She obviously felt very strongly about this. I know mothers of large families who rarely get help and are drowning in household chores. They'd much rather sit down and read to their children but if they pause too long to interact with their children, the house will go to pot and be condemned
The idea behind getting household help to clean and do laundry is to enable mommy to devote herself to her children and to enable her to do that and possibly other things like having guests, contributing towards her community, without falling apart or being a shmatteh.
I remember reading Reb. Jungreis saying similarly - get help to clean, to do the physical labor, while you the mother tend to your children.
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shalhevet
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Tue, Jun 20 2006, 3:52 pm
I understand what you're trying to say. Of course it's better to have help so that you have time to listen to your kids, tell them a story etc.
I just don't get the extreme equation: eat only tuna (in EY substitute bread for the tuna) so that you can get help so that you can help in the community or have guests  Your own family is more important 
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roza
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Tue, Jun 20 2006, 3:54 pm
I just remembered what I heard from one of the chassidus teachers in EY:
"Many ppl think that G-dly is spiritual, but Elokut is neither gashmiut nor ruchaniut."
May be hence the confusion about mitzvos, diapers and spirituality?
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amother
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Tue, Jun 20 2006, 3:59 pm
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the childrens gashmius- bathing, diapering, feeding.... IS their ruchnius.
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stem
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Tue, Jun 20 2006, 4:08 pm
| Motek wrote: | | stem wrote: | | somehow, I had the feeling that I was missing out on something (spiritual?). |
...for cleaning, yes, others, including non-Jews, can clean just as well if not better than you/us, but our identities as Jews and women is not about cleaning! |
A Jewish wife is the Akeres Habayis, she creates the environment in which she can raise her children so they and her husband can thrive. Something about giving part of that over to a [gentile] doesn't stand so well in my mind, though it's definitely nice not to have to break my back cleaning the toilets.
I guess I'm just confused.
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Flowerchild
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Tue, Jun 20 2006, 4:16 pm
stem I used to think the same way, how could I have some lady come and clean my house etc when its supposed to be my job well let me tell you I can def. use one now and I would have no qualms whatsover to have on everyday. I HATE cleaning of any kind, especially dishes I loath loath washing dishes, they are evil and they never disappear so if someone else wants to do them by all means let them, I would be more then happy to spend more time with my hubby and my son, which is so much more fun and enjoyable then scrubbing a toilet, I dont think my hubby will love me more if the toilet shines at him. 
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Motek
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Tue, Jun 20 2006, 5:19 pm
| mummyof6 wrote: | | I just don't get the extreme equation: eat only tuna (in EY substitute bread for the tuna) so that you can get help so that you can help in the community or have guests Your own family is more important |
I wrote:
| Quote: | | The idea behind getting household help to clean and do laundry is to enable mommy to devote herself to her children and to enable her to do that and possibly other things ... |
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chocolate moose
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Wed, Jun 21 2006, 6:57 am
You can do other things, if you don't want a stranger in your house.....like using paper plates, or getting a dishwasher.
You can utilize other time saving techniques. We prob. have a thread on that somewhere.
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southernbubby
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Wed, Jun 21 2006, 7:40 am
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Babies and small children are still very connected to the spiritual world from which they recently came. They radiate trust and innocence and the love that they have is pure. These are very high spiritual qualities that all humans are born with but we loose it as intellect takes over. When we care for little ones, we are reminded of these spiritual qualities.
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downsyndrome
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Wed, Jun 21 2006, 5:42 pm
[quote="stem"][quote="Motek"][quote="stem"] somehow, I had the feeling that I was missing out on something (spiritual?).[/quote]
| Quote: | A Jewish wife is the Akeres Habayis, she creates the environment in which she can raise her children so they and her husband can thrive. Something about giving part of that over to a [gentile] doesn't stand so well in my mind, though it's definitely nice not to have to break my back cleaning the toilets.
I guess I'm just confused. | [/quote]
I think that when you are talking about an akeres habayis creating the environment in her home you are really not referring to clean toilets and floors. There is much more that a woman needs to do in order to create a positive environment in the home, one that bespeaks of calm, happiness, love, harmony, laughter, fun, etc. That is very much called creating an environment in a home and a woman who can do that is certainly deserving of the title 'akeres habayis' and she does not HAVE to scrub toilets in order to create that 'spiritual' haven.
Just as an added thought: I remember learning in school that the Kohain Gadol washed the floors in the Kodesh Kedoshim (hee! hee! my husband is a Kohen; can't wait to see him wash the floors in the Bais Hamikdash when Moshiach comes  ) I think we don't need better and bigger examples to show us that what appears to be mundane really gets elevated according to who is doing it and who/what it is being done to/for.
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miriam
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Wed, Jun 21 2006, 10:13 pm
| amother wrote: | | the childrens gashmius- bathing, diapering, feeding.... IS their ruchnius. |
Beautiful and really inspiring thing to say. Too bad I don't know who you are.
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LubavitchLeah
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Wed, Jun 21 2006, 10:41 pm
When we use our hands to touch, grab, push, shove, throw, sponge, mop, get down on the floor to scrub dirt etc...we are impacting our physical world, creating and moulding this world. How much more so are we moulding this world when our objects are not inanimate, like floors, surfaces but rather our babies. Changing a dirty diaper, wiping a snivelling nose, bathing our babies- these interactions impact our emotional bonds with this human being, create an intimacy. A different intimacy may take place when we clean the objects of this world, a more removed one, not a bond between the clean floor and ourself but rather the original Creator of this world and ourselves. Have you ever finaly finished cleaning for Shabbos or emptying your garage of unwanted things and felt a sense of connection, a rootedness in this world translated as satisfaction? If that seems strange to you, then have you ever felt a sense of connectedness to Hashem after your have finished bathing, diapering , nursing and putting to sleep your precious baby. Hashem takes care of us, gives us food, shelter and clothing in this world- we take care of our babies in turn giving them those same essential needs- The ruchnius is mirrored in this metaphor.
Let me add its 1.38 am here and im up nursing, absolutely exhausted and not thinking through clearly what I'm writing:)
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downsyndrome
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Thu, Jun 22 2006, 6:50 am
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Just had a new thought: If it is a mitzvah to have children, how could the resulting demands on us not be part of the mitzvah, thus elevating it all to spiritual heights?
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Motek
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Thu, Jun 22 2006, 3:45 pm
| downsyndrome wrote: | | Just had a new thought: If it is a mitzvah to have children, how could the resulting demands on us not be part of the mitzvah, thus elevating it all to spiritual heights? |
If it's a mitzva for a man to provide for his wife, do the resulting demands elevate all he does? I think the answer is yes, IF that is his intention. It gets back to kavana again.
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downsyndrome
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Thu, Jun 22 2006, 7:17 pm
Right on, Motek! Now do you think if I demand a mink from my husband it will become a spiritual demand and it will uplift him by providing it? I [u]certainly think it will.  [/u]
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