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mp ↓

Sun, Jan 30 2005, 5:34 pm

In Crown Heights, they had elections for Community Council today. Women were not allowed to run for office nor were they allowed to vote.

- does anyone know why women do not vote or run for office in CH ? Is it the same in other Orthodox communities ?

gryp ↓

Sun, Jan 30 2005, 6:06 pm

maybe call up the Crown Heights Jewish Community Council and ask them why women cant vote or arent running.

ForeverYoung ↓
Guest

Sun, Jan 30 2005, 6:11 pm

mp, this was discussed in the other thread you started,
about feminism

↑ mp ↓

Sun, Jan 30 2005, 6:36 pm

Yes, it was briefly touched upon in the other thread. As far as I can remember, the answer was that women don't need to vote since their husbands will be doing that for them. Anyone else ? Is that it ?

Tefila ↓

Sun, Jan 30 2005, 6:40 pm

Ok I feel I am too a candidate. Who wants to vote for me? ....... Uh not sure what I'm a candidate for though.......

↑ ForeverYoung ↓
Guest

Sun, Jan 30 2005, 7:20 pm

Quote:

the answer was that women don't need to vote since their husbands will be doing that for them.

no, that wasn't the answer.

here's the quote:

FY:

Quote:

The VOTING issue. You see, in Judaism 1+1=1; ish Veishto - guf ehad - husbad & wife - one body. So to the world we stand up together. we deside what is good for our family. So why the need to cast 2 votes?
1 voice per household is perfectly enough (and it's irrelevant who goes to the booth).
Now, I can hear a question: "What if H & W disagree?"
the answer is that if a H&W disagree on an issue that affects their family as a whole, they have a problem and need to resolve it.
Just b/c you like white leather, and you like black, you will not go and get 2 couches - you will find 1 that suits both of you.

Quote:

I think 1 vote per household is sufficient.
And if H & W have different opinions on various matters THAT AFFECT THEIR FAMILY sticking to their opinions is counterproductive and will cause discord.
The couch mashal was just a mashal, and you do not need to take it literally.
How about if you want to live in NY & your husband in London. You won't get 2 houses, you'll find a place THAT IS BEST FOR YOUR FAMILY.
Whatever you vote for, affects your family, affects Jewish people, who are your extended family.

↑ ForeverYoung ↓
Guest

Sun, Jan 30 2005, 7:22 pm

with them, mp, not for them

↑ mp ↓

Sun, Jan 30 2005, 8:05 pm

Okay, FY. Let's say that our husbands will vote WITH us and not FOR us. Why can't the women vote WITH the husbands instead ? Why can't a woman or a man represent the household ? Why is only the man chosen to represent his wife and not vise-versa ?

↑ ForeverYoung ↓
Guest

Sun, Jan 30 2005, 8:24 pm

Being I'm not lubavich, I don't know how think work in CH,
but you can most definitely call them & ask.

I think, probably b/c they do not want to create situation where man & women will mix.

As women tend to be buisyer then man, I think, it makes more sence for men to vote.

yehudis ↓

Sun, Jan 30 2005, 8:48 pm

Disclaimer: I know absolutely nothing about the Crown Heights elections and how things work there.

But different communities have different standards on tznius and on how much men and women who are not related to each other should interact. On Meah Shearim St. in Yerushalayim, men and women walk on different sides of the street. That's the local standard. And it is only respectful of us first of all, not to question it, and second of all, to abide by it when we are there.

I would imagine that the whole election situation has to do with the Chabad community's standards. And they have a right to have those standards. And those people who do not want to abide by them don't have to live there.

I don't really know, but I would think that this has nothing to do with women's role per se, but only with the interaction between men and women. Of course, if a woman takes on a public role, she would have to interact with men.

Rivka ↓

Mon, Jan 31 2005, 2:29 am

Ok maybe they didn't want women to be voted FOR, but why couldn't the women vote? If it's just to do with mixing, they could have had seperate enterances and stuff for the men and women to vote, no problem really. Voting for community things should be a right for both men and women. What about single women who are in the commnity? They have no rights as to what is going to be decided? I don't agree that if a man and wife don't agree on who to vote then there is a problem in their marriage, that sound ridiculouse. I voted one party and my husband another simply because I felt certain things on one party were better than the other, wheras my husband felt differently. If not everyone can vote, then it is only a half vote.
You can't compromise on voting. Your husband will not vote for the party you want if he feels strongly about something else.

sarahd ↓

Mon, Jan 31 2005, 3:35 am

There is certainly an inyan that women do not vote in kehillah matters. The kehillah in which I live (not city, kehillah, as in with its own rov, mikveh, kashrus, etc.) is searching for a new rov and women cannot vote in the elections. That is the rule of the kehillah, and it's not because it's a chassidish or backwards kehillah.

There are people who resent this, particularly widows, l"a, who are upset that they are charged hefty fees - some wealthy almonos have to pay over $10,000 a year - for belonging to the kehillah, but have no voice in anything, and are not even informed of any goings-on in the kehillah, even those that do not involve votes. I can really understand this (and I think a solution could be found, whereby an almonoh appoints a man to vote for her or some such thing) but that is the way it is.

Pearl ↓

Mon, Jan 31 2005, 4:47 am

I totally agree with Rivky. Seperate voting can be easily facilitated. I am quite surprised of the whole matter, to tell you the truth. I am not Chabad, and I have never been to CH (to the US at all!), so I can't say I know how things are done there. I do think that nowadays voting should be for everybody involved! I lived in Israel for 11 years, but couldn't vote, as I am a permanent resident, not a citizen. I have to pay taxes, etc, but can't vote, and can't be elected. My husband votes for the party he thinks should get his vote, and doesn't take my political ideas in consideration. Does this mean we have marriage problems? HV'S! It just means that maybe we don't share the same political ideas, which is okay! Now we live in Europe, and the situation is vv - I can, he can't vote.....He doesn't tell me whom to vote for, I vote as I think is right.

Motek ↓

Mon, Jan 31 2005, 5:36 am

simple answer - the halacha says women can't vote

nothing to do with Chabad or a community's standards or any "inyan"

don't like it?

think of it as a chok like why you can't eat cheesburgers or wear shatnez

would you discuss the irony of iraquis being able to wear wool and linen combos when Jews can't? would you discuss the unfairness of it? obviously not

ditto here

it all comes down to : because G-d said so because this is His will

hadasa

Mon, Jan 31 2005, 5:58 am

Motek - Is women's voting against Halachah? I think not. In fact, as far as I remember from the days I lived in CH, the very same Community Council tries to encourage all residents to participate in Presidential and other governmental elections. Do they mean only men?

Theoretically, I can understand the point of having votes according to households and not individuals, however I do think that that is unfair to the single women, widows and divorcees whose household is not counted.

↑ Motek ↓

Mon, Jan 31 2005, 6:03 am

if the country you live in allows women to vote, then there is no halachic problem with women voting in a gentile election (and Israeli elections)

otherwise, within a Jewish context, women may not vote

↑ Pearl ↓

Mon, Jan 31 2005, 6:13 am

well, call me naive, but I really don't see why not... Confused

↑ ForeverYoung ↓
Guest

Mon, Jan 31 2005, 7:09 am

ok, here I go again:

Quote:

elections in the community (of a Rav, more so) will affect your ENTIRE family, and I believe, this is something that BOTH, h&w have to deside together.

to take the extreme, if the wife wants chasidish rav & husband - a modern one, thhey each vote & chasidish rav wins - are you going to gloat? This is not a healthy situation in marriage, I think.

however, if your husband doesn't ask for yor opinion it is NOT a halachik problem, it is HIS ATTITUDE

please, stop blaiming the torah & halacha for the human flaws & imperfections of the mail population of the Earth!!!!!!!!
talk to your husband about it.

we already went through this in the feminist thread!!!!!!!!!!!

I do agree though, that it should be vote per household & independant women/ girls should have a vote too.

I cannot tell YOUR community what to do.
But your husband can. & your friends' husbands can also.

Motek, where does it say that women can't vote?

↑ gryp ↓

Mon, Jan 31 2005, 7:31 am

I also always thought of it more as a "family vote," not a "man's vote."

in the case of a widow, ch"v, probably the CHJCC has some system set up, so you can call and ask. www.chjcc.org

↑ Pearl ↓

Mon, Jan 31 2005, 7:49 am

ForeverYoung "however, if your husband doesn't ask for yor opinion it is NOT a halachik problem, it is HIS ATTITUDE "

I guess I am misunderstood here - we don't have a halachik nor attitude problem here. Political views are very personal, and my husband would vote as he thought would be right, even if I didn't agree. One doesn't change political views just to indulge someone else.....

"to take the extreme, if the wife wants chasidish rav & husband - a modern one, thhey each vote & chasidish rav wins - are you going to gloat? This is not a healthy situation in marriage, I think. "
Gloating would be childish then, I guess, but why should it immediately be an unhealthy marriage?

I will just agree with the view ventilated in this thread that it should be a vote per household, no matter if that vote would be male/female. Really don't get the point about women not allowed to vote.

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