Moving to a bed | Imamother

↑ yehudis ↓

Thu, Dec 30 2004, 6:48 pm

On the quote about the 2-year-old who refused to move to his own bed -- the problem is not the family bed, IMO, but the inconsistency of the parents. Either you get your child used to sleeping in his own bed, or, if you do decide on the family bed, _you have to stick with it until the child is ready to move on_. You can't just decide that since you have a new baby, you don't want this arrangement any more. That's not fair to the toddler. I mean, having a new baby is the _worst_ time to change sleeping arrangements -- the toddler has enough to adjust to as it is. And besides, a 2-year-old generally has a hard time with changes.

About bar mitzvah age children still in the mother's bed -- I agree that this is not normal. But I don't think the family bed is the _cause_ of the problem. These children probably have greater underlying problems (lack of security, low self esteem, etc.) that are manifested in this way. If they were sleeping by themselves, these problems would have been manifested in different ways.

And just because some children (I can't imagine that it's too many) have such problems doesn't mean that a family bed is a bad idea for an average child.

And I agree that older children who are still in the mother's bed need (gentle) help moving out. The question is, how old is too old. I have no idea, but I don't think that my 3.5-year-old is too old. And I really think that most children move out on their own before they get "too old."

I also agree with what Micki said about helping the child learn not to run to Mommy whenever something is wrong. Again, I just don't think that having a 3-year-old in your bed interferes with this. Maybe with a 6-year-old it's different. A 3-year-old still needs a lot of reassurance. And there are plenty of other opportunities for her to learn to solve problems on her own, such as when interacting with other children.

I think what each mother needs is to maintain a careful balance between encouraging your child to face the world and being there when she needs your support. And this balance, of course, depends on the child.

Also, I am not at all trying to imply that those of you who put children in their own beds don't have the right balance. These things are very individual, and of course, there are many other factors besides sleeping arrangements in our children's lives.

But I do want to say that family bed works well for some families and has many benefits for both parents and children. And in most cases (just as with their own beds, it's not 100% either) the children grow up well adjusted and independent.

↑ yehudis ↓

Thu, Dec 30 2004, 6:58 pm

Regarding the third quote -- I agree with the concept. Of course, there should be limits regarding the parents' privacy. That's why we have halachos about it -- the children are not allowed to see the parents undressed, for example. But, if I'm not mistaken, these halachos are not in full force until age 4 at least. When children are younger, they can't really understand the concept of the parents' relationship being separate from them. They just feel excluded, that's all.

OTOH, when they get older, of course, they should be taught to knock before entering the parents' bedroom. And we should knock before entering theirs.

↑ yehudis ↓

Thu, Dec 30 2004, 7:10 pm

Oh, one more thing I forgot to address. Someone mentioned that her parents used to spray water in her room to get rid of monsters. It seems to me that lying to a child is not exactly the best way to help her deal with her fears. I mean, it doesn't get rid of the fear. It's just another way of avoiding the feared situation, except it doesn't involve the mother's bed. So I don't see how it's any better than family bed. The child simply becomes dependent on the spray bottle vs. the mother. She doesn't become more independent at all.

↑ gryp ↓

Thu, Dec 30 2004, 7:47 pm

she becomes independent because after a few days the spray bottle vanishes, and the darkness is no longer scary.
theres nothing like a little nonsense to keep kids in line Very Happy

(See the ridiculous things you believed when you were a child thread)

and a disclaimer about the psychologist John Rosemond. in case anyone does decide to research him, I must say that I do not agree with everything he says. some things go against Torah as he is a devout christian. his basic parenting ideas are good but his techniques need some polish.

Last edited by gryp on Fri, Dec 31 2004, 5:02 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ yehudis ↓

Thu, Dec 30 2004, 7:51 pm

About the Torah on nursing past 2 years: this is from Straight from the Heart (and I did make my husband look up some of the sources back when it was relevant to us Smile

Quote:

Our Jewish sources discuss the right time to wean. Ideally, the child should wean himself. It is written that one should not wean a baby before his time unless there is a specific reason for doing so [Rav Chaim Vital, Eitz Chaim, sec. 288: Nitzotzin]. "The duration of the halachic status of mesuleket damim -- the woman who does not menstruate -- corresponds to the average nursing time of two years. A child who so desires may nurse for three, four, or even five years for a sickly child" [Ketubot 60a].

There is more in the book, if anybody's interested.

↑ yehudis ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2004, 9:41 am

zuncompany wrote:

so, unless they are sickly... 2. How does it define sickly?

No, if they are sickly it's 5; otherwise, it's 4. Here's the quote again:

Quote:

A child who so desires may nurse for three, four, or even five years for a sickly child.

"for a sickly child" refers to five years. We looked it up inside also.

Quote:

Second... My parents used it as a means to give me independance over my fear. I think I used it like a whole week. I realized it was water and was like wow!

Sorry, I don't think I understand. So what happened when you realized it was water? Did you realize that it doesn't really work?

Quote:

No offense, but I would rather give my child the tools to become used to sleeping alone than to bribe them to do it. I bet its a whole lot scarier as a three year old than a six month old.

Bribery wouldn't work if the child didn't have the tools. What I am saying is that over the past year (since she became afraid of the dark) she has made a lot of progress in this area, without me doing anything about it. Like, in the beginning she would want me to leave the door open so that some light comes in, and now she doesn't mind a closed door. Etc. So what I am doing is waiting for her to overcome the fear on her own. And if I ever promise her a gift (and as I said, I'd rather not do that), it's only purpose would be to motivate her to speed up the process. She would still have to do the work of overcoming the fear.

↑ yehudis ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2004, 9:55 am

One more thing, about lying to children. I heard a story about some big rabbi (sorry, can't remember who) who came to visit his son. The son was teaching his own son, the rabbi's grandson, to walk. So the son stood a few feet away from the baby and extended his hand with a candy in it. The baby took a step, and then the father also took a step back, with the candy. The rabbi got upset and said, "You can't do that! You promised him the candy -- now you have to give it to him. You can't lie to a child!" And he was talking about a 1-year-old! All the more so for older children.

↑ zuncompany

Fri, Dec 31 2004, 10:25 am

When I realized it was water, it made me realize that the there were no bad guys in my room. It made me realize I was in control! Took a lot less time than a year too. I don't think it was a lie by any means. It was called using creativity in parenting. It gave me the confidence I needed to get over the fear. It was special anti-bag guy spray! It got rid of the fear for me.

This is I think a difference in parenting approaches. You know your child and what works best for them. A great mashal in the differences...

I was scared to pull my loose teeth. I hated blood. So, I avoided anything that would. I let them come out on their own. It sometimes took 5 years but they did eventually come out on their own. My friends pulled their loose teeth. There was a little blood right after, but they were out. They never complained.

with my children, I want to pull those teeth, using creative means. I want them to get on with their lives and hopfully my creative means will give them the ability to smilie after.

you want to let the tetth come put eventually when they are ready. hopefully it won't take 5 years Smile

Both cases the tooth eventually comes out.

sara

↑ yehudis ↓

Fri, Dec 31 2004, 12:40 pm

Sara,

I can relate to the teeth thing -- I was terrified of blood as a child Smile

.

I think the difference is also in the kinds of issues you decide to deal with and the kinds you leave to get resolved by themselves. No matter what kind of parent you are, there will always be issues that need to be resolved right away. So it's more a matter of what to focus on. Every mother needs to find creative solutions -- there are plenty of situations where they would be helpful.

We have other things we're working on with my daughter. That's why I feel comfortable to just leave the fear of the dark issue to resolve by itself.

↑ gryp ↓

Sat, Jan 01 2005, 3:09 pm

Yehudis- im not asking you personally, but a general question to those frum people who believe the family bed has benefits.

what do people do about the children seeing the parents together in the same bed?

for example, I dont think children should have any memories of their parents sleeping in the same bed. now some people may disagree with me here, but this is my hergesh, and the way I would like to bring up my kids.

please nobody say im naive and the kids know anyway. knowing and seeing it actually happen is a lot different.

so what do they do?

↑ Pickle Lady

Sat, Jan 01 2005, 4:58 pm

Its interesting when you use non-frum sources for the family bed. For my family there is no possibilty of a family bed because my husband and I sleep in seperate beds unless when we are intimate with each other. I don't think its the right idea to use non-frum sources when discusing the family bed because our marriages are different than secular society. Also for me I take alot of that advice about children with a grain of salt. Only 50 years ago every doctor told women that it would be beneficial to their baby if they fed them formula and today they say breastmilk is better but formula is a fine substitute. What will they say 50 years from now? So when it comes to my kids, I know them the best. So since we are all different types of mothers with different types of babies we certainly will have different types of parenting styles.

↑ ForeverYoung
Guest

Sat, Jan 01 2005, 5:01 pm

Quote:

for example, I dont think children should have any memories of their parents sleeping in the same bed

My not frum parent had one big bed and always slept together.
I NEVER had any ideas about anything. To me it was a natural thing - married people sleep in 1 bed. It was a part of the marriage deal to me - you get a big bed and you share it.

May be I'm naive too, but even when I was a teenager, I did not think twice about it.

On the other had, the times had changed....

But this is why there is a lock on the bedroom door...