Cap sleeves | Imamother

becky

Fri, Jun 19 2009, 9:48 am

Please help me understand why some girls' schools do not allow the kids to wear cap sleeves?

flowerpower ↓

Fri, Jun 19 2009, 9:52 am

Because it's the new "in thing". In a year or two it might be allowed. Any new styles are forbidden until it's not new.

amother ↓

Fri, Jun 19 2009, 9:53 am

what's cap sleeves? embarrassed

↑ flowerpower

Fri, Jun 19 2009, 9:55 am

Puffy short sleeves and a long sleeve t-shirt underneath.

Ruchel ↓

Fri, Jun 19 2009, 9:56 am

Charedi schools may feel it should reach the elbow.

It's not a big deal, it's a really unflattering look on many, just a bit better than sleeveless... Wink

DefyGravity

Fri, Jun 19 2009, 10:05 am

flowerpower wrote:

Puffy short sleeves and a long sleeve t-shirt underneath.

Cap sleeve is not a puffy short sleeve. It's generally a very short sleeve, that just covers the shoulders and can easily go under jackets without bunching.

↑ Ruchel

Fri, Jun 19 2009, 10:19 am

layers are no new trend...

sky ↓

Fri, Jun 19 2009, 10:20 am

The answer I was told is because it is a look that was made to be untzinius. I've discussed it with people and I don't understand how its different then a V-neck sweater.
I have heard that in the past (not sure when mizrayim, times of gemara) people wore clothes designed for non jews and were punished. Again I have no clue what I'm repeating. If you want to PM me I can tell you the name of the rabbanim I was told this in the name of.
Its not that I'm having a hard time not wearing it, I'm just having a hard time understanding the rule - so I'm asking (I hate rules I don't understand). I was told there are opinions that wearing the same color underneath and on top is acceptable. Dunno.

PinkFridge

Fri, Jun 19 2009, 11:50 am

I wonder. My daughter's camp doesn't allow it. I told her, it's like makeup. In school/camp you have to stick with the rules. Institution rules MAY be a little overboard because they have to be b/w or they'd forever be measuring earrings, etc., so I can be a little more liberal during offtimes, but on the whole, I'm on the same chapter as the institutions.

But frankly, I don't get this one ;-)

Atali ↓

Fri, Jun 19 2009, 11:53 am

fayge wrote:

The reason is probably that many girls who wear that style wear a very tight long sleeve top underneath that is too tight on the arms.

chocolate moose

Fri, Jun 19 2009, 2:35 pm

Is it against halachah to define the arms ?

↑ Atali ↓

Fri, Jun 19 2009, 2:36 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

Is it against halachah to define the arms ?

To that degree, yes. I am referring to the stretchy tops that are as tight as plastic wrap.

cassandra

Fri, Jun 19 2009, 3:01 pm

Shows what world I come from. I assumed she meant without anything underneath.

OldYoung

Fri, Jun 19 2009, 4:35 pm

Atali wrote:

chocolate moose wrote:

Is it against halachah to define the arms ?

To that degree, yes. I am referring to the stretchy tops that are as tight as plastic wrap.

I posted on another thread, and never got an answer. Do you have a source for this being against halacha? I learned that the arm is a part of the body which you are allowed to have the form showing, so it doesn't really matter how tight the sleeves are (as opposed to the "shok" which you must cover so that the form isn't visible). I could be wrong, though, and would appreciate if you had something to back that up!

↑ Atali ↓

Fri, Jun 19 2009, 4:50 pm

OldYoung wrote:

Atali wrote:

chocolate moose wrote:

Is it against halachah to define the arms ?

To that degree, yes. I am referring to the stretchy tops that are as tight as plastic wrap.

I'll research it this shabbos, bli neder

↑ amother

Sat, Jun 20 2009, 4:50 pm

I dont have any sources, but in the bnos malachim video on tznius the rabbi interviewed said that it was not acceptable to show the form of the arm (as in the situation described above). I was embarrassed as I was wearing a cap sleeve shirt over a long sleeve, haha, oh well.

Chocoholic

Sat, Jun 20 2009, 4:54 pm

amother wrote:

I think that's a chumra. A "refinement" thing.

↑ Atali ↓

Sat, Jun 20 2009, 7:31 pm

As promised, I spent a long time this shabbos researching this.

You don't have to agree with everything I write. I know the MO posters probably won't. However, can you please try to be respectful of the way others pasken

Basically, there are two reasons for not wearing tight clothes in general. The first is the same as the reason for not wearing red (source: Brachos 20) since it attracts attention. If even red is problematic because it attracts attention, it is a kal v'chomer that tight clothes, which attract much more attention, are assur.

The second reason is that according to the Rema (Yoreh Deah 178:1) the issur of "bechukoseihem lo seileichu" specifically refers to, among other things, wearing garments that were made by non-Jews for the purpose of being immodest. Clearly the style of wearing tight clothing falls into that category.

However, the principle of not wearing tight clothing is not the same for all areas of the body. For example, no one holds that one must wear a skirt down to the feet rather than wear tights/hose.

The explanation is as follows:

Different areas of the body are required to be covered for different reasons. Some areas are inherently considered enticing, such as the breasts and thighs. If you really need a source from the gemara for that I can give you one, but as married women that should be obvious to all of us Smile

. Those areas are required to be coved m'doraisa. Other areas such as the upper arm and lower leg (according to opinions that require covering it), only need to be covered m'drabbanan. The reason for covering these areas is that seeing skin on these locations can draw a man's thoughts to the areas they are near, the chest and thighs respectively.

The lower leg does not need to have it's shape hidden at all, even according to those, like the chovas yair, who pasken that "shok b'isha erva" refers to the lower leg, allow covering it with tights because with regard to the lower leg, only actually seeing skin would draw his mind upwards, not seeing the shape.

The same in theory applies to the upper arm, that only seeing skin is a problem. For this reason sleeves can be tighter than a shirt can be. However, unlike tights, very tight sleeves (aka plastic-wrap style) actually do cause the shape of the chest to stick out more and draw the eyes there.

Also the requirement to cover the upper arms is stricter than the requirement to cover the lower legs. The requirement to cover the upper arms is clearly mentioned in the gemara (kesubos 72) but the lower legs are a machlokes. The Rambam, for example, holds that a woman does not need to cover the lower legs, lower arms, or face, since although in essence all of a woman's body is attractive, doing so interferes with daily activities and therefore the Torah doesn't require it.

However, since the upper arms are not in this category it follows that the Rambam would require them to be covered with a proper (non-tight) covering.

But anyway, enough of the pilpul. We all know that tight clothes are alluring. As Chocoholic said--her husband loves tight sleeves. I am guessing he doesn't say the same thing about women wearing tights (and skirts that cover their knees properly, of course).

ShakleeMom

Sat, Jun 20 2009, 8:19 pm

Reminds me of a cousin who went to a co-ed school (going back many years). She asked me innocently, "Are you allowed to wear nail polish in your school" to which I replied, Um, there's no such rule. Her answer, "LUCKY!". She didn't get the part that in my school, there was no need for such a rule, because there wasn't any such ideas floating around.

I think the schools that make these nutty rules are asking for trouble. In my son's yeshiva, there are no rules. Last year in 4th grade, the principal called me to let me know nicely, that he was the only one in his class with designs on his yarmulka and when I get a chance, can I please buy him plain ones... The idea is that that the kids will tell their mother when its time to phase out of the stuff they don't see the others wearing.

↑ sky

Sun, Jun 21 2009, 6:11 am

Atali wrote:

As promised, I spent a long time this shabbos researching this...

Thanks for such a detailed answer. I did hear from someone who spoke to Rabbi Falk directly that there is no problem waring sleeves that are tight on the arm. She is a seamstress who alters wedding gowns and was very upset that girls wanted their sleeves skin tight so she called him and it sounded like it was not a problem. I've been told that by my rav who is against cap sleeves, and pretty strict on tzinius. He is not agains the cap sleeves because of the tight sleeve underneath, he is against it because other reasons. He doesn't like the tight sleeves, but says it is not assur like other tight areas - It has to be completely covered. The leg has to be covered - but lets say 30 denier is ok (for me) you can still see part of the leg through there - but with a white tight sleeve you can't see any of the arm. In fact he reviewed a tzinius booklet recently and would not allow them to put in that tight sleeves are assur. (He also didn't want to put in the cap sleeves are assur - just that they are not recommened)