treif vs. treif | Imamother

carrot ↓

Sun, Feb 19 2006, 10:41 am

Imagine a bunch of sandwiches.

1) kosher bologna

2) kosher bologna and cheese

3) "nevaila" bologna

4) "nevaila" bologna and cheese

5) pigmeat bologna (is there is such a thing?)

6) pigmeat bologna and cheese

Aside from the first sandwich, which is kosher, can the other ones be ranked more kosher to less kosher, or is it an all-or-nothing sort of thing that just cannot be ranked?

If they can be ranked, what would the ranking be?

Is the NUMBER of prohibitions that would be transgressed relevant? (Like in Sefer Hamitzvos sometimes it lists the number of "lav"s for different situations.)

Some considerations:

Milk and meat is not explicitly in the Torah (just goat cooked in mother's milk) so that is why I think one is allowed to derive financial benefit from it? (Correct me if I'm wrong please.)

Nevaila - or treifa - might also be something that is only forbidden to Kohanim, or something that makes you tomei but not assur per se?

As I am writing I keep thinking of other sandwiches - like what about a chicken and cheese sandwich... but I guess I will keep away from that for now..

Any comments?

Please let it go without saying that I am not advocating anybody eat a cheeseburger. It is a purely theoretical wonder and if you want to know what to do ask your LOR.

↑ carrot ↓

Sun, Feb 19 2006, 11:06 am

right but does that constitute a difference? for example if someone would tell you that they are definitely going to eat a meat and cheese sandwich for lunch - but they are willing to try it with kosher meat - are you doing anybody any good by providing that kosher meat?

TzenaRena ↓

Sun, Feb 19 2006, 11:07 am

Quote:

Milk and meat is not explicitly in the Torah (just goat cooked in mother's milk) so that is why I think one is allowed to derive financial benefit from it? (Correct me if I'm wrong please.)

Bosor V'Cholov is assur B'hanaah. (forbidden to derive benefit from it)

roza

Sun, Feb 19 2006, 11:12 am

first of all is not pigmeat and navaila are both non-kosher? why did u put them separate?

Now, the non-kosher meat only sandwich is better then meat and cheese NOT heated together. If the meat -cheese was heated together, then there is an additional prohibition (not to cook together, merely combining and not leaving for 24 hours is not cooking).

any food that involves meat and milk cooked (heated) together can not be even given to dog (derive benefit).

↑ carrot ↓

Sun, Feb 19 2006, 11:16 am

roza wrote:

first of all is not pigmeat and navaila are both non-kosher? why did u put them separate?

nevaila = not shechted properly (the only thing that is even close to the real meaning of "treif" - torn apart by a wild animal)

pigmeat = non-kosher animal

good point about the heating together vs. just putting together...

Last edited by carrot on Sun, Feb 19 2006, 11:24 am; edited 1 time in total

↑ TzenaRena

Sun, Feb 19 2006, 11:21 am

I think the issur of Bosor V'chalav is m'drabbanan for treif ie.nonkosher species meat. Remember reading something to that effect. So, as far as that issur is concerned in itself, it's less severe than bosor v'chalov for kosher meat. Even though one is 'compensating' for that with the severe issur of treif, neveilah from a tamei animal. Or does shechitah even apply with a tamei animal?

I'm just curious Wink

what's the point you're getting at? Confused

Kosher meat processors commonly sell their treife parts I.e. the parts with the forbidden veins and cheilev - fats to non jews I.e treife butchers. It's at a loss, but they still receive payment, no? I guess it's not assur b'hanaah What

. And correct me if I'm wrong about that. Very Happy

↑ carrot ↓

Sun, Feb 19 2006, 1:14 pm

SaraYehudis wrote:

Very, very interesting! Do you have any inkling where you might have found that out?

Quote:

Or does shechitah even apply with a tamei animal?

I wonder that too! Probably not though. I don't think so. I wonder why I think that? Maybe they don't even have the same structure to allow them to get shechted?

Quote:

I'm just curious Wink

what's the point you're getting at? Confused

No point at all. Just wondering.

↑ carrot

Sun, Feb 19 2006, 1:19 pm

Quote:

. And correct me if I'm wrong about that. Very Happy

Now, that sounds right. Is this the same as an animal that was shechted properly but afterwards was found to have a problem?

SaraG wrote:

There is not issur hanaah by treifus. Bosor vecholov and chometz are issur hanaah, for example.

What do you mean by treifus?

Motek

Sun, Feb 19 2006, 1:20 pm

my dear carrot, I asked this very same question yesterday!

I had read about an Israeli from a traditional home who traveled the world and had certain "red lines" that he wouldn't cross, one of them being that he would only eat meat from a kosher animal, however, shechita was not something he thought about, so I asked: did he gain anything by restricting his diet to kosher animals? What he ate was treif anyway! Maybe a ham sandwich would have been better?

so as you and others posted - the prohibitions of treif are different than the prohibitions of which animals can't be eaten

although what he ate was treif, Hashem certainly treasured this person's efforts to retain what little of Judaism he knew

my husband repeated something he heard from Manis Friedman who said it over in the name of the Rebbe (though I wouldn't vouch for it) that Hashem finds it exceedingly precious when a Jewish man puts out his cigarette on Yom Kippur before entering a Reform temple

even though putting out a cigarette is prohibited on Yom Kippur and even though it's prohibited to step foot into a Reform temple, this Jew is ignorant of these laws and he does what he does out of respect for G-d and the holy day of Yom Kippur

mali

Sun, Feb 19 2006, 2:20 pm

Kabbalah-wise, it's probably 'better' to eat only kosher animals albeit not shechted. Aside from the Torah restrictions concerning non-kosher meat, it is explained that the meat has an effect on the Neshama.
A kosher animal has split hooves and it rechews its cud. The ground symbolizes Gashmius, while air symbolizes Ruchnius. The split hooves symbolize the idea of allowing "Ruchnius" to enter, and not being totally connected to Gashmius (like the hooves of non-kosher animals). Chewing the cud means thinking things through and not acting on instinct.
As far as the Shechting - we don't just kill an animal in a beastly way. Over the generations, the Jewish Shochtim (as opposed to the gentile butchers) were Yerei Shomayim and respected by all. The form of slaughtering is the least painful form of death for an animal - call it "passing away gently".
These things affect body and soul. By consuming these, we get the good traits, and vice versa. Therefore, it's probably preferable to keep one than keeping none.
Halachically, there's no difference between a slaughtered or non-slaughtered non-kosher animal. Meat-milk laws don't apply either.
In kosher animals, however, milk-meat does apply in non-slaughtered animals.

Last edited by mali on Sun, Feb 19 2006, 6:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

elisecohen

Mon, Feb 20 2006, 7:40 am

Just have to mention my dd made a sandwich of soy "ham" and soy "cheese" (both parve with good hechshers) and took a "ham and cheese" sandwich to school, which amused her to no end but totally grossed out DH! I know it adds nothing to the discussion, just call me Mrs Digression here...but I appreciate reading the viewpoints and learning.

queen

Mon, Feb 20 2006, 8:32 am

carrot wrote:

are you doing anybody any good by providing that kosher meat?

you are not allowed to give a jewish person treif food to eat. I wonder if the halacha is any diff. when one knows they will be eating the kosher meat in a treif combination Question