Cultural differences in hachnosses orchim

Platinum Member Joined: Jan 01 2006 Posts: 48223

I invited guests a week or 2 ago, and when they didn't respond in the affirmative (after us following up - twice), we made other plans. They ended up calling, the night before, to come.

I thought maybe they were "holding out for a "better" place", which made me angry. My son said no, that's how different cultures are - that the host buys the food they can afford, and invites whoever wants to come. He said he's been to places where the chicken is mamesh cut into shreds to accomodate everyone !

That's not for me, and we didn't end up hosting. I work full time, and by the time the prospective guests had finally called, the shopping was done and a lot of the cooking was done too. I made that clear to them, but still, no one won.

What do you all think ?

I could avoid having to say no (if I felt like it) because I make too much food. Worst case scenario would be no leftovers for Sunday.

If they're not fussy, you could open a few cans of corn and add a chopped red pepper, etc. I know a woman who would have scores of guests off the wall. She afforded this by serving cheap meals that included canned corn (bulk size cans), and dessert was canned pineapple. The visitors were inexperienced in Shabbos and had no fancy expectations. The Shabbos atmosphere was what counted.

She took a needy family to a gemach and outfitted everyone for 200 shekel.

Hey, it's not for everyone.
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Platinum Member Joined: Jan 01 2006 Posts: 48223

No, we don't eat leftovers of the expensive just for yomtov food, the day after. I make what I need - since it was just dh and me for two meals, I bought four chicken breasts.

I don't know what to say .... theoretically I could have run to the store Friday morning, before work, when I was anyway buying challos, to get extra supplies (if there were any to be had) or I could have run out Thursday night (but I was pretty tired in both cases). And what if they didn't have any more chickens? Was I supposed to buy a 80 or hundred dollar roast, and start cooking it on Friday, after a day of work? I can't cook on Shabbos, after all !!!

Realistically, being that I work full time with a commute, when did this couple expect me to shop and cook? Did they really think that I had a full fridge of food, just waiting for them?

I've been to homes where there was "not enough" to go around and it's not comfortable. That DEF is not for me !!!

Posted: Sun, Oct 04 2009, 11:30 pm Post subject:

I would not either be happy to have guest announce themselves at the last minute, especially if I did not make any extra food.

I don't know if it's cultural or not, but it definitely borders on rude, especially if you made the effort to ask them way in advance.

wow, I really understand cultural differences and this one

Israelis do tend to be last-minute, which is annoying for Americans but they make up for it by being warm, appreciative guests and are not picky...they don't go in for fancy

but I hear you CM...it is so frustrating to want to be organized and do things ahead. I know it well...sorry to hear about your experience!
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Diamond Member Joined: Nov 11 2007 Posts: 3794

I have no idea if this is cultural but it has happened to me a couple of times over the years and I agree it's rather annoying. In the cases where I was expecting other guests too and had plenty of food it was no big deal to tell them to still come but if they were the only ones invited and then only let me know Thursday night, I would give them a raincheck. I have a hard time coping with that too.

On the flip side, it was equally annoying to have invited a family of 9 over too our sukkah (who immediately accepted the invite many weeks ago)... who then called 2 days before shabbos to tell us that they have a family of 5 staying with them who also need to come and eat... then called late Thursday night to cancel for ALL 14 people because the 6 months pregnant guest did not feel like walking. And I had already done all shopping and most preparations.

When I invite guests, I tell them to let me know by tuesday, because thats when I do my weekly shopping. If they call me after tuesday, I tell them "Sorry, I already went shopping for the week. We'll have to have you over another week."

Platinum Member Joined: Aug 12 2007 Posts: 20599

You totally didn't have to have them over at that point. But if you really, really wanted to, you could have maybe stretched the chicken breasts by cubing them and stir frying with vegetables; serve with good-hechshered vaccum packed rice (no checking - saves time). You could have made egg salad (or deviled eggs with a dozen (or fewer) eggs. Stretching the egg salad with onions also goes a long way. Corn salad. Pasta with oil and salt. Not fancy, but filling and comfort food.

If it's just you and your dh, you're right that you're in a totally different mindset from, for example, a family with teenage boys who has to keep the home well stocked with staples. And if you work full time, or have other pressing needs, that factors in too. You were definitely within your rights to tell them it would no longer work out comfortably that week.

it wouldn't be a problem for me, becasue I cook on friday and usually have meat and chicken in the freezer. You should tell prospective guests very clearly when you invite them that you need an rsvp by a certain time. with me I tell people thursday night, but for you it might be tuesday or wednesday.

Posted: Mon, Oct 05 2009, 6:18 am Post subject:

I shop Monday afternoon. After that it's whatever's in the house.

I completely agree with CM...the invitees were rude.
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alos when you are cooking for 10 and an extra guest or 2 turns up, its not a big deal. when you are cooking for 2 or 3 and an extra guest turns up, not necessarily is there enough food.

While I agree with choccie et al the guests were inconsiderate and make it very challenging for the hostess, stretching meals is less of a difficulty. Either I always prepare a few extra pieces of chicken or have enough things that can be stretched. On several occasions, I became a "fake vegetarian" so that the guests can have more meat. What's tough is, sleeping arrangements (esp if you invited someone else on the assumption the original invitees aren't coming) and if you got invited out for lunch (do you tag them along, or leave enough food for them)?

I can always stretch food or make something extra last minute. Having said that, I still remember one particular incident of a lack of consideration even ten years later:

In those days, our family consisted of Adolf, me, three very small kids, and one baby. We had moved house not long before, and we had little money. Some good friends of Adolf who lived in America had suddenly arrived in the country for a family visit and they and their 9 kids wanted to come for Shabbos. It was the Shabbos immediately before the Nine Days, so whatever fleishig we ate would have to be eaten completely. (Sunday would be 1st Av.) We went to a lot of trouble, sorting out bedrooms, sleeping etc. I was in very early pregnancy, and setting up beds was not so easy for me as I was very tired. We bought a load of chicken that we couldn't really afford, as Adolf really wanted to make these pple welcome. (I actually couldn't stand these pple as I found them rude, sarcastic and rather obnoxious in general, but was prepared to put up with them for one Shabbos for Adolf's sake as he really liked them.) We defrosted all this chicken and were, if I recall about to cook it Friday morning when the wife calls us and tells us that they're not coming for Shabbos after all.

I was the one who took the call, and as far as I remember, there was no apology. I can't recall the specific reason, but I remember that it wasn't anything that would really warrant such an abrupt change of plan. I even remember stammering that we'd taken out a whole load of chicken that we couldn't even use later on in the week bc of the Nine Days. But she didn't care and wasn't even apologetic or pleasant.

Needless to say, we never saw or heard from these dreadful pple (much to my relief as I couldn't stand them anyway) during the rest of their stay or even when they returned to the States.

As for the food, it was Hashgocha Protis bc the same week, another local family needed to go abruptly to the hospital with their son and didn't have time to make Shabbos meals. So they came to us ...

Nonetheless, I have never been so disgusted when it comes to guests as by the family mentioned above. And in terms of the culture issue, he was Israeli but had lived in America for years (and he said the most disgustingly anti-Israel statements that I've ever heard from a frum Jew) and she was a New Yorker. I guess they combined the rudest aspects of their native cultures ...

I haven't seen any culture where it's OK to just come at the last minute. That's more something that goes by subgroups within a culture, if that makes sense. Like, if you're a Chabad shaliach anywhere on earth you'd probably be thrilled to know how many people are coming by Thursday night (as opposed to Friday night), but among the general populace (whether in Israel or America - I can't speak for elsewhere) it's considered good manners to give a few days' notice.

Whether or not the particular guests were rude - IMO it depends who they were. I have some friends, mostly younger and single, where I'm happy if they just let me know by Friday morning or so what their plans are. If they don't tell me earlier I don't see it as rude, that's just how it is. And there are some people I'd expect to get back to me by the middle of the week. If a younger couple or single person or family that isn't frum (or is only recently frum) doesn't give notice by the middle of the week it's probably just because for whatever reason it didn't occur to them that they would be inconveniencing their hosts.

I think it'd be rude to give up on inviting people without letting them know. Even if it's Thursday and they still haven't given a direct answer, I think the host has a responsibility to say "listen since you're still not sure you can come, we're going to make other plans. We'd love to have you another time," or something of the kind. The best IMO is to do what Seraph and Raisin suggested and give a deadline - "I need to know by Wednesday morning," for example.

Oy do I feel for all of you. I don't think there is a housewife who hasn't had such a situation, with or without apologies, with or without explanations and always with expenses and exhaustion! My way around it is to have a deep freezer (and a big family) stocked with cooked food. I cook in bulk. Meatloaves (always in the plural), chickens, and other such stuff. When I buy wings I buy five packages and bake in sauce and then grill for a minute, and then divide up into five plastic containers and freeze. If I get unexpected guests for shabbos (and my kids, the married ones, do this to us all the time...Daddy can we come for shabbos (asking us sometimes friday morning)?? They don't ask me, they ask him as he knows my food stage.

So...here are a few tricks. First always cook soup. It's cheap, it's nutritions, and even if it is summer and hot make a fruit soup. Second make it VERY concentrated so that you have enough. If you make a beans and barley and carrots and potatoes soup, boil it out until you have a real concentrate. Strong and seasoned. Same for fruit soup, thick and sweet and syrupy. Then package in small plastic containers and label "concentrated X soup". If you defrost for a small family group (2 to 4 portions) take out a small plastic and add water and heat up and if you suddenly get 10 guests take out two more plastics and just dilute. They don't take up a lot of room and it's always there.

Same goes for chicken wings. Whatever I am making for shabbos if I get unexpected guests I can take out one, two, three or more already cooked in spicy sauce packages of chicken wings. Even Friday at three pm. Just microwave or stick in a pot and boil with a drop of water (again, make sure the sauce is concentrated, takes up less room). So....if we are having something else, there are two fleishg dishes. And as for rice, my rice is always checked, always in the freezer and always ready to cook. We use whole rice which takes ages but I keep a package of white around in case I need to cook some in 10 minutes for unexpected guests.

The sleeping over business isn't easy. We always have to kick a kid out of their bed to accomodate guests, even their own married brothers and sisters. But that's what pullout matresses are for. Also if they are truly unexpected guests and they kind of foist themselves on you, I make "ladies rooms" and "men's rooms". All the ladies, whether it means splitting married couples or not, sleep in one room across the beds, two beds pushed together and you can put four ladies there, same goes for the guys. If they don't like it don't come to the Freidasimas for shabbos because we only have a girls room and a boys room anyhow and I don't give up my bedroom to anyone except my mother or my inlaws and my mother never needs it as she lives down the block. Sometimes the kids get kicked out to my mother, sometimes the guests get kicked out to my mother, it's all one household and I just don't sweat it. If they do? Their problem. There are guests who never came again and there are those we can't get rid of. Those kind I ask to come early and help clean. They often do.
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Gold Member Joined: Mar 16 2009 Posts: 2332

I've let people know quite late, but I was single and in Israel and I do think that's much more common there. However, what I find even more annoying is when people cancel on you last minute.
Dh and I invited some singles over and ALL the boys canceled last minute. dh even went to chabad for davening thinking he might find some guys in need of dinner but they were having a dinner there and he came back, ahm, empty handed. So annoying!

Platinum Member Joined: Jan 01 2006 Posts: 48223

thank you, everyone.