The Ketubah

Posted: Thu, Aug 20 2009, 12:53 pm Post subject: The Ketubah

So I know there are serious Halachic ramifications if there are errors in a Get.

What are the Halachic ramifications regarding errors in a Ketubah I.e. the name is wrong, a witness isn't valid, etc.

(FTR, I am not questioning because of my own Ketubah. A Conservative friend blogged that she was asked to be a witness on a Ketubah and she refused because she didn't feel comfortable).
_________________

Posted: Thu, Aug 20 2009, 1:20 pm Post subject:

The woman does not have a kesubah if the kesubah is invalid. The purpose of a kesubah as I understand it is a few things- So that a man cannot just "dismiss" his wife, no easy divorce (in theory). It also lays out the marital obligations and protects the widow to make sure she is not left in poverty when their are children from the first marriage.
Biah without a kesubah is "rabbincally frowned upon" even with a chupah and kiddushin.
_________________
Do you live for the future the present the past?
If there is one thing I know, I know I will die
If anyone cares, some stranger may critique my life
I may be revered or defamed and decried
But I tried to live right

Posted: Thu, Aug 20 2009, 1:41 pm Post subject:

So basically (from a pure Halachic POV), while marriage can be valid by any 1 or 3 things, only a Get can be valid by the destruction/nullification of the Ketubah... but if the Ketubah was never valid in the first place they'd need to write up a kosher Katubah first and then rip it for the Get?

Posted: Thu, Aug 20 2009, 11:53 pm Post subject: re: The Ketubah

my brother used to work for a Beit Din as an assistant to one of the Dayanim, and was often a witness for divorces - he told me they tear the GET in half, not the Ketubah! (It sounds wierd but it has something to do with it not being able to be stolen and used against the woman, or the fact of it being torn was proof of it being carried out, not really sure?)

Gold Member Joined: Mar 16 2009 Posts: 2293

I understand that the get is torn so that no one can afterwards try to find a mistake in it, which could make the woman's future children mamzerim, etc.

There is also no need to have a ketuba at all to get a divorce (get a get, but it sounds weird.)

Posted: Fri, Aug 21 2009, 12:51 am Post subject: re: The Ketubah

So why is there a issue regarding a kesubah that one shouldn't sleep in the same house with dh when it is lost or stolen?

Posted: Fri, Aug 21 2009, 1:56 am Post subject:

I don't know, but I'm looking at the paperwork I received from the Rabbanut Beit Din in Jerusalem. One is a standard form in Hebrew and the other is typed up and in Aramaic and I'm pretty sure that's the Get. And it's whole.

I'm also 99% sure that the Ketubah was torn to render it Passul.

Posted: Fri, Aug 21 2009, 6:11 am Post subject: Re: re: The Ketubah

Diamond Member Joined: Oct 29 2006 Posts: 4461

A typed form is not a get. A get must be written by a sofer or a particular couple. My get was cut but not rendered unreadable. This is done to show it was given and authorized by the BD and esp, not reused.

I was not given my get, it was kept by the BD but got a teudat gerushin. This is done so when your kids get married the BD can look at it to see if it was done in a legitimate BD and proper. The laws of correctness are very strict on a get. It can be posseled if the accepted Hebrew spelling of the town is incorrect.

When I remarried the rabbanut took back my teudat gerushin. This is so I couldn't go overseas after remarrying and present an Israeli teudah as proof of being divorced and having a rabbi in chutz marry me to someone else.

[url= http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/557910/jewish/Rules-of-the-Get-Document.htm]See here.[/url]
There is a whole section on divorce there and a reprint of a pamphlet by R' Bulka.
_________________
There was a time when every brief saying one heard was regarded as a "Torah" (teaching, guidance), and everything one saw was perceived as an instruction in his avoda and conduct. - HaYom Yom

Posted: Fri, Aug 21 2009, 6:52 am Post subject: Re: re: The Ketubah

Posted: Fri, Aug 21 2009, 7:00 am Post subject: re: The Ketubah

If it is typed - it is not the get.
The get is written by hand by a sofer during the proceedings of the divorce. And then it is torn up after being given to the woman. The bet din keeps the ketuba.
In Israel, you are given a certificate of divorce .
I made sure to photocopy my ktuba forst - in case I ever needed it - for the kids or something.

When my kids got married - they wanted a copy of the certificate in teh rabbaniut/moetsa datit.
_________________
Hila
Certified doula/birth assistant
In Israel, Ima to 4 kids and 1 dil and two sils
and the four sweetest grandsons in the world

Posted: Fri, Aug 21 2009, 7:25 am Post subject:

Ok, so then I'll ask again... what is the Halachic significance of an unkosher Ketubah?

Posted: Fri, Aug 21 2009, 7:31 am Post subject:

Yesha- what answer are you looking for? I don't get it. Its not like the get that can make children mamzerim. Even if there is no chuppah or kedushin whatsoever nothing close to that happens. The rabbis came up with this idea of kesubah, im theory to protect the woman (whether it works like that today is debatable). It is a form of prenuptual agreement including what happens in the event of divorceor widowhood and what the obligations of the parties are (although only the husband's obligations are actually written out in the kesubah afaik). If a woman does not have a kesubah the husband has not agreed to clothing and housing her or to intimacy for her pleasure. if he gives her a get even in theory he is not required to give her any money. If she is a second wife and becomes widowed his children from the first marriage have no obligations to her and can kick her out of the home with nothing.

Posted: Fri, Aug 21 2009, 7:49 am Post subject: re: The Ketubah

All of you divorced ladies - note. It's a lot more complicated than that.
The beis din in yerushalayim is NOTORIOUS for losing files. Heck, I remember one time I was there and had to find the file of a newly divorced couple to check something and get the teudat gerushin for a woman (you get that either right after the get but sometimes only a week later depending on bureaucracy), and they couldn't find the file - with the GET, with the teudat gerushin, nothing, nada. I remembered the name of the dayan presiding, got to him and he was nice enough to look together with me. Some dayanim there do avodas kodesh...anyhow we found it two hours later, on a pile of files to be sent to...the choppers (grisa)...I was horrified and the esteemed Dayan said to me, "My dear Freidasima, don't be surprised, you don't know the half of it".

Anyhow we saved that poor couple from having to go through it a second time as there would have been no records. The computer records aren't enough, you need the real shtar get which is cut up in Xs (Shti va'erev is the din) to render it readable but unusable.

You definitely need your ketuba in EY for your children to marry but they take it for the Get as someone wrote here so you should always have a copy, in fact there should always be a copy in the rabbanut where you married but...those files also have a habit of disappearing when you need them.

But here's the thing, a Get is not dependent upon the ketuba. Even if the ketuba was invalid in some way the couple is MARRIED. For that you need two kosher eidim, and something worth more than a pruta that belongs to the groom which he gives to the bride for a kinyan and she has to accept it. All the rest is lovely but it was added later. Meaning as was written here, it is frowned upon to have relations without a ketuba because it became Jewish custom to have one, (that's why you aren't supposed to sleep under one roof with your dh without a ketuba) BUT you are married if you did the above, hence to dissolve that marriage you need a get.

Moral of the story? Get copies of everything. In the Tel Aviv Beis Din they are different, after the get they give the couple the file to take down to the first floor to the clerk to get the teudat gerushin (that's two pieces of paper, one in aramaic which is the nusach of the Get and the other which is in Hebrew which is a translation of the Get - no they aren't the Shtar Get - but they are the legal document that you will need in the State of Israel for anything). Anyhow I tell my people who for some reason are getting divorced in Tel Aviv that near the stairs on the first floor is a copy machine - before you give in the file to the clerk pool your pennies and as the last act of a "couple" go and photocopy all the pages in the file - everything, twice, from your shtar get to the ketuba and all the other documents - and KEEP THEM. You may need them if the file is sent to the choppers (and thank you DAYAN X for your wonderful services on that Thursday...)
_________________
"Olam Chessed Yiboneh", Tehilim 89.

Posted: Fri, Aug 21 2009, 8:12 am Post subject:

I guess my question is if there (seems to be) no Halachic issues with a non-kosher Ketubah, then why so much effort in making sure the names are correct, properly transliterated if there are no 'Jewish' names, making sure the witness are the proper 'six degrees of separation' from both the bride and groom, 'hiding' the Ketubah from the husband, etc.

Is it simply all a legal document with no Halachic signifigence at all?

Posted: Fri, Aug 21 2009, 8:16 am Post subject: re: The Ketubah

Posted: Fri, Aug 21 2009, 8:19 am Post subject:

I find a kesuba to be a jewish form of prenup - one that isn't even followed ... basically was ignored by the get which was written up then & there and torn after it was dropped into my hands ... I have a letter from the beis din saying we have a kosher get
_________________
don't wonder why people go crazy ... rather wonder why we don't
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NUTso but cute ~ things balance out Nervous

Posted: Fri, Aug 21 2009, 8:55 am Post subject:

Posted: Fri, Aug 21 2009, 9:01 am Post subject:

Maybe you mean "spiritual significance" as opposed to halachik, comparable to that of a mamzer?
AFAIK there is no real spiritual significance to not having a kesubah. As I said I have heard the biah (relations)without a kesubah called "bias znus". I'm guessing that that is because it is rabbinically considered "loose"/ lacking morals of a couple to engage in relations when the rabbis decided the "torah way" was to make sure the woman is protected by having a kesubah. Like the crass "why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?" A guy who wants a relationship that is holy and not znus won't take free milk, A woman who wants holiness, not znus won't give the milk away free.
I guess that is a type of spiritual significance.

Posted: Fri, Aug 21 2009, 9:06 am Post subject:

No, I mean Halachic Smile

I guess my questions are with regards to why do you need Halachic witnesses if it's not a strictly speaking Halachic document (or maybe I'm simply being wrong in seeing a difference between Halachic and 'legal'...)