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new, private, subforum for full time working women, with no options for bashing and questioning-yea or nay?
absolutely! I am all for a subforum where we can address "the unique challenges faced only by those who have chosen, either presently or in the past, to embark on full time careers (45+ hours/wk, outside the home)"!
 77%  [ 49 ]
no (please state why)
 12%  [ 8 ]
Other (please explain below)
 9%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 63


Ruchel
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PostPosted: Fri, Aug 07 2009, 12:56 pm    Post subject: Re: re: private forum within "working women" subfo
 
Barbara wrote:
Ruchel wrote:
I will regret it it for working women forum will get closed, the same way that I regretted it when the "mother at 35+" had to close too. I understand, but I liked ready them and I think even people not in these cases can have ideas or chizuk to give. Especially if they had the situation in their family.



Ruchel, I think the idea is to have a closed area within the forum, but to leave other areas open. I'm not sure how the divide would work.


I can't remember, do we have a student moms forum?
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cassandra
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PostPosted: Fri, Aug 07 2009, 1:00 pm    Post subject: re: private forum within "working women" subforum
 
Quote:
ABD ("all but dissertation" on a doctorate -- I dropped out when I realized that I could anticipate a successful academic career at someplace like Idaho State or piece together a string of academic jobs where the pay would add up to just under the salary of an assistant manager at any fast food outlet.)


Well, I'm 28, have four kids and two masters degrees, but maybe I'm equally wise since I figured that out before I even started the coursework for my PhD, that would have been in a field that had no relevance to anyone in the world except for probably the person who supervised my dissertation.

Maybe we just need an algorithm to figure out how wise someone is (If I remember your field correctly, I'm guessing that your doctoral coursework would probably come in handy in that respect.) Experience and age would certainly count a lot, but so would other things. So instead of the disclaimer "I'm only 24" people could just post their "wisdom score" in their signature and then everyone can know whether or not to write someone off.
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ss321
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PostPosted: Fri, Aug 07 2009, 1:06 pm    Post subject: Re: re: private forum within "working women" subfo
 
Barbara wrote:
random wrote:
Ditto on the amother above me.


I'd tweak it to full time or more, with little flexibility (allowing WAHMs who don't have the flexibility to work in their jammies only when their kids are asleep or at school to participate).


I think this is an excellent idea.

H_Y, I think yea, then youd qualify. how about this? anyone who thinks they qualify, qualifies! shakleemom for example, I think works really hard at home (I have just seen her post alot about her WAHM job). why is her work any different than mine? on the one hand? it might be easier emotionally since she does see her kids more often, but OTOH, seeing her kids while she needs to get stuff done might make working harder, and might make her kids resentful, whereas my older one (baby doesnt get it obviously) at this point is more like out of sight out of mind to a certain extent.
if you think you have something to contribute, then by all means, please join.
the point is to prevent the bashing BBmom talks about (you have a housekeeper but dont like her style and are stressed about it and money isnt an issue since duh, you have a housekeeper - suggestions, even as jokes, about quitting or cutting your hours are really frustrating). someone like cassandra, who doesnt work right now, has worked, gets the issues, made a decision not to work, and doesnt bash working women (in the home or outside the home)s decisions to work.

I think the point originally was, some of us LOVE our chosen professions, and are NOT doing it because we have to. so I I think like any subforum, you shouldnt need to pass a test to join. if you think you belong, and want "in" on the private convos going on there, want to post not as amother and not be bashed, then the the mod (whoever it might be, and if it is not too labor intensive, id do it) should allow you to join. if you are of the camp that "a mothers place is in the home, and anything else is b'dieved," even if you DO work 40 hr weeks or 80 hour weeks, it might not be the best place to discuss your views on your career because I think we all envision having a haven to discuss careers where we are happy about them in general, but might be stressed about specifics.

how does that sound.
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ss321
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PostPosted: Fri, Aug 07 2009, 1:07 pm    Post subject: Re: re: private forum within "working women" subfo
 
Ruchel wrote:
Barbara wrote:
Ruchel wrote:
I will regret it it for working women forum will get closed, the same way that I regretted it when the "mother at 35+" had to close too. I understand, but I liked ready them and I think even people not in these cases can have ideas or chizuk to give. Especially if they had the situation in their family.



Ruchel, I think the idea is to have a closed area within the forum, but to leave other areas open. I'm not sure how the divide would work.


I can't remember, do we have a student moms forum?


no we dont. I wanted one desperately but we dont!
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Ruchel
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PostPosted: Fri, Aug 07 2009, 1:08 pm    Post subject: Re: re: private forum within "working women" subfo
 
ss321 wrote:
Ruchel wrote:
Barbara wrote:
Ruchel wrote:
I will regret it it for working women forum will get closed, the same way that I regretted it when the "mother at 35+" had to close too. I understand, but I liked ready them and I think even people not in these cases can have ideas or chizuk to give. Especially if they had the situation in their family.



Ruchel, I think the idea is to have a closed area within the forum, but to leave other areas open. I'm not sure how the divide would work.


I can't remember, do we have a student moms forum?


no we dont. I wanted one desperately but we dont!


I would love it. But it's a bad sign. All the forums I wanted never existed, or died. Out of town, Europe, Daughter of Shoah survivor...
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Fox
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PostPosted: Fri, Aug 07 2009, 1:22 pm    Post subject: Re: re: private forum within "working women" subfo
 
cassandra wrote:
So instead of the disclaimer "I'm only 24" people could just post their "wisdom score" in their signature and then everyone can know whether or not to write someone off.


Laughing

Okay, I'm officially plotzing. And if I don't get to work soon, I'm going to be disqualified from all forums because my Internet and electricity will be off!

That's it! A "wisdom score" -- surely we have someone here with a background in psychometrics who can construct an online test (at a cost of probably no more than $75-$100,000 to Yael!) to give us our "wisdom scores."

We could even have a little scale associated:

1-2 = Don't bother; she's a twit.
3-4 = Kinda dumb but occasionally insightful
5-7 = Smart but overconfident

And then would come the online brain trainers designed to increase your wisdom score! Eventually, the wisest would communicate only in backward sentences, like Yoda: "Careful should the OP be to avoid burning her challah in the heat chamber of the kitchen."

Maybe when I read advice that requires physical energy by someone for whom the concept of age spots is funny, I'll just channel Queen Latifah in one of her "urban" roles: "Girl? Who are you kiddin'? If you think I'm gonna drag these worn-out feet to the kitchen after workin' all day, you can kiss . . ." Well, you get the idea!
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Pickle Lady
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PostPosted: Fri, Aug 07 2009, 2:19 pm    Post subject:
 
I think its a great idea. Some women truly love their jobs. I haven't worked in my field in 6 years because of having kids and I really miss the field I studied. I sometimes work on the side for people that uses my skills but its pretty rare. I hope that full time working moms get a private forum. Only they can understand what it feels like to work all day in a job they love but really miss their kids but still go to work everyday. Like what to do about when a kid is sick. Taking maternity leave off when you just took maternity leave last year. Hoe long to take maternity leave. Preparing to shabbos and yom tov. Being passed up for a promotion because you can't be in the office as much as the guy you work with. Just plain juggling a family you love and a job you love.
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Flowerpot
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PostPosted: Fri, Aug 07 2009, 2:27 pm    Post subject:
 
I don't realy care if its open or closed forum as long as I can post without fear of being bashed and my words being used against me. I never post in the working women forum since I see ppl here are very into SAHM not that I think its wrong to be a SAHM I think its beautiful kol hokavode but its not for everyone and surly wasn't for me. if its a big and nice group and we can enjoy everyones insight laugh and cry together it sure sounds good. I think that if its a closed forum but gives easy access whoever feels they belong in there that sounds gr8.
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chocolate moose
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PostPosted: Fri, Aug 07 2009, 2:37 pm    Post subject:
 
You should maybe limit the participants to those who work a long day, rather than by profession. But you'll hve to take ppl's word for it.

And yes, I think commute should count.
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ss321
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PostPosted: Fri, Aug 07 2009, 2:58 pm    Post subject:
 
chocolate moose wrote:
You should maybe limit the participants to those who work a long day, rather than by profession. But you'll hve to take ppl's word for it.



I think this is a good idea. of course, we would have to take peoples word for it. but the key is, I feel like if it is a private forum, and then someone "sneaks' in and then proceeds to start bashing all working moms (lol?), they can be politely asked to leave.
it would be undrstood that hte participants would be respectful.
and that what we say in the forum, would sdtay in the forum.

every private forum=taking someones word for it. we dont know if someone has been to fertility doctor, or if they are pregnant with twins, or if they are 62 (over 35 that is) or 26. someone can say they live in Bnei Brak to gain entry to life in Israel, when they really live in Illinois. that is not the point

I feel like it will just offer us some more space to talk freely and without embarassment or fear of being made to feel even more guilty.

so for example, if someone (?) hypothetically (?) posted (with their username) a thread about how guilty they felt about not being home a single night last week for bedtime and how their DS (dd perhaps?) told them that they miss their old mommy who was home and then that progressed into a conversation about why hashem makes sick people and how he (or she) wishes there were no sick people so that his mommy could be home to read the schoolbus book and say shema,
and was looking for support,
I would envision this thread being a place, where, as opposed to the open working women thread, there would be NO responses like:
well maybe then you should just stay at home, while I respect ur decision to be a working mom, you sound so guilty,a nd being a SAHM is just soo much more meaningful and amazing.

and more importantly:
I would hope that this forum would help make it pssible that such a revelation/confession would never be used against said hypothetial (?) poster in a subsequent thread

(as in: you cant understand what it is like to try to put your kids to bed and for them to not listen, since you are never even home for bedtime anyway! you said so in thread xyz")
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Flowerpot
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PostPosted: Fri, Aug 07 2009, 3:15 pm    Post subject:
 
I don't see why someone that doesn't belong should want to sneak in (or you never know lol) but then yes a mod can nicely tell her to leave so is it a deal?
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Flowerpot
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PostPosted: Fri, Aug 07 2009, 3:16 pm    Post subject:
 
I see 21 ppl voted for it so we are not off our mind.
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creativemommyto3
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PostPosted: Sat, Aug 08 2009, 2:43 pm    Post subject: re: private forum within "working women" subforum
 
How about keeping the forum open just like the WAHM forum? There are differences and honestly I think both of us can learn from each other..

I think a lot of assumptions are made on this forum.. like it was assumed in the feminist thread that I must be a SAHM when in reality I am a working mom too..
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freidasima
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PostPosted: Sat, Aug 08 2009, 2:47 pm    Post subject: re: private forum within "working women" subforum
 
I think such a forum would be really important.
I have five kids and have worked full time since finishing college, actually I worked IN college but that wasn't the same it was student work.
I have ALWAYS worked full time and until the past ten years I have always worked on at least three jobs at once.
There were years that the only time I saw my kids awake during the week is if either they or I were sick and I was home.
Thank G-d for telephones. The minute they invented cellphones we all had them. I remember this gigantic thing the size of a small shopping bag (just kidding) that I would schlep around when I commuted so that the kids could reach me everywhere I was.
It was no fun.
I adore my profession but I worked so hard as I had to bring in a lot of bread. I was helping support more than one family after my father was niftar and my mother wasn't left with much.
I obviously have professional degrees if I am a psychologist and supervisor.
I don't know how smart I am but I know how busy I was and how guilty I felt for years and how difficult it was as my surroundings were full of working women but not a single professional who left little kids with a metapelet until six or seven PM five days a week.
Most of my friends worked at the time their kids were young as part time professionals and none commuted out of town for a job two hours away like I did for ten years.
I learned a lot and I think such mothers in such situations need only chizuk. No criticism. They aren't doing it for a lark. They are doing it either because they have to or because they want to or need to for other reasons then just money or all three.
Such a forum if it were open on a board like this one would be open season for bashing at a certain point because if you are not in love with your profession and willing to "sacrifice" other things for it you really can't understand someone who is.

Certain things can only be understood by people who are gonig through it or went through it in the past.
BTDT. I had enough bashing in my day and I don't think that women, young or old, should have to put up with bashing along with everything else they are going through in their personal and professional lives.
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creativemommyto3
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PostPosted: Sat, Aug 08 2009, 2:52 pm    Post subject:
 
ss321 wrote:
chocolate moose wrote:
You should maybe limit the participants to those who work a long day, rather than by profession. But you'll hve to take ppl's word for it.



I think this is a good idea. of course, we would have to take peoples word for it. but the key is, I feel like if it is a private forum, and then someone "sneaks' in and then proceeds to start bashing all working moms (lol?), they can be politely asked to leave.
it would be undrstood that hte participants would be respectful.
and that what we say in the forum, would sdtay in the forum.

every private forum=taking someones word for it. we dont know if someone has been to fertility doctor, or if they are pregnant with twins, or if they are 62 (over 35 that is) or 26. someone can say they live in Bnei Brak to gain entry to life in Israel, when they really live in Illinois. that is not the point

I feel like it will just offer us some more space to talk freely and without embarassment or fear of being made to feel even more guilty.

so for example, if someone (?) hypothetically (?) posted (with their username) a thread about how guilty they felt about not being home a single night last week for bedtime and how their DS (dd perhaps?) told them that they miss their old mommy who was home and then that progressed into a conversation about why hashem makes sick people and how he (or she) wishes there were no sick people so that his mommy could be home to read the schoolbus book and say shema,
and was looking for support,
I would envision this thread being a place, where, as opposed to the open working women thread, there would be NO responses like:
well maybe then you should just stay at home, while I respect ur decision to be a working mom, you sound so guilty,a nd being a SAHM is just soo much more meaningful and amazing.

and more importantly:
I would hope that this forum would help make it pssible that such a revelation/confession would never be used against said hypothetial (?) poster in a subsequent thread

(as in: you cant understand what it is like to try to put your kids to bed and for them to not listen, since you are never even home for bedtime anyway! you said so in thread xyz")


Just so you know not all MD's have a schedule like yours, does that mean that they don't belong to your forum? I have an uncle who got himself a salaried job as a neurologist in a hospital that would enable him to be home in time for bedtime to see his kids.. he chose that over making more money.. He just did his note organizing from home after the kids went to sleep.. Are those type of ppl excluded from your forum?

But what's puzzling is that you are so worried about being bashed when people are just expressing their views.
There's nothing bashing about saying that a woman's first priority is her family and that if her profession/job makes her feel more fulfilled thereby giving her the fulfillment she needs in order to be a good wife and mother .. Just like ppl saying that they work to be able to raise a Torah true family . you are working towards the goal of feeling fulfilled as a woman which in the end will make you a happier person to therefore make you a better wife, mother and of course Eved Hash-m..
In the end of the day , your kids see what matters to you most. My Rebbetzin's mother did have a profession but they never really felt it b/c it was done (outside of the home) when they were out in school .. but in no way is this an attack on you..
When I was in the hospital after my last birth I was talking to one of the nurses in the hospital. When I found out that she had three kids I was amazed how she managed.. But the thing that struck me most was that this job was just a way to help her feel more fulfilled yet she still knew that her main role in life was mom and wife..
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shalhevet
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PostPosted: Sat, Aug 08 2009, 4:05 pm    Post subject: Re: re: private forum within "working women" subfo
 
ss321 wrote:


I think the point originally was, some of us LOVE our chosen professions, and are NOT doing it because we have to. so I I think like any subforum, you shouldnt need to pass a test to join. if you think you belong, and want "in" on the private convos going on there, want to post not as amother and not be bashed, then the the mod (whoever it might be, and if it is not too labor intensive, id do it) should allow you to join. if you are of the camp that "a mothers place is in the home, and anything else is b'dieved," even if you DO work 40 hr weeks or 80 hour weeks, it might not be the best place to discuss your views on your career because I think we all envision having a haven to discuss careers where we are happy about them in general, but might be stressed about specifics.



I mentioned this before on the other thread, and I agree with ora and Fox there. (I must be a bit dim but I'm not quite sure what's supposed to be discussed on this thread, and what on the other one Embarassed ).

The more I read both threads, the more I get the feeling that you are not asking for a forum for those who work many hours, but for those who are almost exactly like you - are professionals, work extremely long hours, love their career, work outside the home, are an employee etc.

Who mentioned before about it only being for those who love their professions? Why shouldn't someone working long hours out of necessity have somewhere to get advice on finding a babysitter? Why shouldn't someone who is their own boss be able to start a thread on balancing her home and worklife? Why shouldn't a WAHM be able to discuss her views on working while her children are home, or what to do with them during school holidays? Or someone who is a secretary kvetch that she can't be home to let the plumber in?

What about, ss321, if in 10 years time, you work as a doctor at nights (so you can be home for the repairman) or have your own practice (so you are your own boss) or change your views on motherhood and working? Will you then not qualify for your own forum?

This reminds me of a forum request a long time ago where the OP kept redefining who she would like in the forum until it basically ended in she wanted a closed forum for xxxx (enter name of requester).
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Inspired
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PostPosted: Sat, Aug 08 2009, 4:59 pm    Post subject:
 
I agree with Shalhevet, Ora and Fox.
I currently do not WOH, but I have in the past.

AFA this:
Quote:
so for example, if someone (?) hypothetically (?) posted (with their username) a thread about how guilty they felt about not being home a single night last week for bedtime and how their DS (dd perhaps?) told them that they miss their old mommy who was home and then that progressed into a conversation about why hashem makes sick people and how he (or she) wishes there were no sick people so that his mommy could be home to read the schoolbus book and say shema,
and was looking for support,
I would envision this thread being a place, where, as opposed to the open working women thread, there would be NO responses like:
well maybe then you should just stay at home, while I respect ur decision to be a working mom, you sound so guilty, and being a SAHM is just soo much more meaningful and amazing.


I don't see why this is any different than the natural parenting forum (which has been said to have no reason for being a safe haven, ftr). Why can't the forum be open, but posts "bashing" working mothers or talking about the amazing benefits of epidurals staying at home, be not allowed especially when made by stay at home mothers. In short, a safe haven, monitored and inappropriate posts removed.
I think having it closed would take it away as valuable resource for those women who plan to one day go out to work to see what it will be like. Plus, those who are not allowed in, as the others have said, may have valuable advice for those inside.
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chocolate moose
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PostPosted: Sat, Aug 08 2009, 9:20 pm    Post subject:
 
It's gonna be up to Yael, plain and simple.

If you want a professionals, long-hours forum, and she gives it to you, enjoy it. I don't consider myself a professional - I'm a legal secretary - and I work (just) 45 hours a week. I don't belong and I doubt it would speak to me anyway.
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shalhevet
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PostPosted: Sun, Aug 09 2009, 11:15 am    Post subject:
 
Inspired wrote:

I don't see why this is any different than the natural parenting forum (which has been said to have no reason for being a safe haven, ftr). Why can't the forum be open, but posts "bashing" working mothers or talking about the amazing benefits of epidurals staying at home, be not allowed especially when made by stay at home mothers. In short, a safe haven, monitored and inappropriate posts removed.


If the point of the forum is for those who believe in having a career and not staying home with their children to have a safe place not to get bashed when they post how they haven't seen their children all week, then I agree. Such threads can probably be modded enough.

If the point is for those working long hours to also exchange tips, ideas, strategies on working/ running a home/ being wives and mothers in the context of being working mothers, then I think a closed forum is useful. Because otherwise when someone posts looking for advice on how to make YT/ help their kids with hw/ stay home for the electrician etc, there will be posts bashing them for not being a SAHM. From previous experience, posters will not be able to resist.
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jemappelle
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PostPosted: Mon, Aug 10 2009, 8:33 pm    Post subject: re: private forum within "working women" subforum
 
I voted yes and assumed I qualified - but I may be wrong- I work professionally out of the home and have children. Many of my friends as SAHMs and as mentioned here, don't necessarily "get" the issues (and pressure!) I deal with. I don't meet the 45+ hour work week though- my company instituted flex hours a number of years ago- and the schedule I chose was to skip the lunch hour and leave an hour early.
If this forum comes to fruition, please let me know if I can join as well based on the above.
Thanks!
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