Private forum within "working women" subforum for

in light of this thread (http://imamother.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=88673&highlight=)

I am wondering how many women on imamother would be interested in me asking Yael about the creation of a subforum that would be private where we can discuss:

"the unique challenges faced only by those who have chosen, either presently or in the past, to embark on full time careers (45+ hours/wk, outside the home)"

I was thinking something along the lines of the
"israel-related inquiries" subforum -which is public and anyone can ask questions about hotels, cars, real estate, terrorists, etc, and can question someone elses decision to live in israel for whatever reason,

and

"life in israel" subforum - which is private and open only to people living in israel, to discuss the issues unique to their lives in E"Y.

I know that I often find myself posting as "amother" in working women, because I dont want to be bashed elsewhere for a question I might ask, or for stating how guilty I feel about something that was necessary because of my schedule and how it affected my family, or for discussing things like how I need a full time housekeeper to make my life work right now.

I tried to word the description (in bold - above) in a way that would be as inclusive as possible (ie - if you worked FT in the past,and feel like you want to discuss things and have advice to give, or are thinking about going back, you should join, and it is not limited by the "type" of job)
but would still perhaps limit some of the bashing and questioning that takes place in working women.

even if you are NOT a working woman, or do not think you would even join this forum, can you still vote, if you have an opinion on the matter, and tell us why you think what you think?

thanks everyone!

Platinum Member Joined: Sep 22 2004 Posts: 9754

I actually think it's a much better idea to get some real dialogue going here about working vs. staying home so that maybe people would be less quick to judge, because in all honesty I think people are judged on both sides of the fence. Just as working mothers would love everyone to know that they are good mothers who love and care about their children just as much as sahms do, someone like me would love people to know that I'm just as intelligent, capable, motivated and successful as you but I've made different choices, and probably define success differently than you do.

I have a friend who is a doctor and I love that she can talk to me about the hardships she faces doing what she does and raising her kids, how she feels stuck so many times, how she very often regrets her decision, how she wonders if sometimes she is doing what she is doing because she was brought up with maybe not the most accurate or helpful definition of "success" and by the time she had a bunch of kids she wasn't just going to give up everything she had been working so hard for since she was in high school. That's honesty. I love that I have working friends who I can talk to about the challenges of having a good brain but feeling like it is my responsibility to be there for my kids no matter what. Even though we have made different decisions we can still understand each other, because essentially we aren't really that different.

A separate forum that excludes too many people isn't going to be helpful ultimately because so often the best ideas come from unlikely sources. I didn't vote, because I wouldn't have a problem with it, but I think instead of admitting defeat everyone should stop being so defensive because only once you let your guard down will people really understand you, and maybe even help you.
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I second Cassandra's notion. Even people who dont fit the bill exactly might be able to give, and or recieve alot of positive information which can help themselves and possible others. If you keep it "exclusive" as you want it, all you will get is support, and from a very small group of people.

I'm the OP from the other thread on "support group" etc. I don't really care if the forum is closed or not, but I do want a safe haven forum. There are so many issues that we need to be able to have open discussions about. I was up nearly all night bc I couldn't sleep, worrying about my bad babysitting situation and other private worries. I am IY"H going on maternity leave in November, but my boss doesn't want me to take the maternity leave because I am needed in the group ... and I hear his rationale! I'm just imagining bringing the baby to the law firm with me ...

Cassandra, WADR, there's plenty of room here for debate and for making our roles as working women understood. Speaking only for myself, however, I rarely post in working women, or participate in such debates, as they invaiably become attacks on women who *don't raise their own children* or some other straw man.

I work anywhere from 45 to 80 hours a week (plus commuting), sometimes more. And trust me, I'm still raising my own kid. He's even been known to fax me his homework so we can go through it together. It would beneficial to talk to people who understand that, without explanation or qualification.

I respect your decision to stay at home. It would never occur to me that such a decision makes you less intelligent, or less valuable a member of society. I understand that your husband works long hours. I understand that you would like to go back to work at some time in the future. Still, with all that, at a fundamental level, you cannot share, emotionally, in the struggles of women who work long hours. You've never gotten home at 3 am Friday morning and wondered whether to take an hour to make something for Shabbat or to try to grab a couple of hours of sleep before heading beck to work. It would be like someone with 6 kids saying that there's no need for a private infertility forum because we can all understand and sympathize with women who have trouble getting pregnant and, hey, it took me 18 months to get pregnant with this child, and I have a friend I've spoken to who is going to an infertility doctor.

Diamond Member Joined: Nov 22 2006 Posts: 3428

I don't agree b/c we could all commiserate with each other..
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Platinum Member Joined: Sep 22 2004 Posts: 9754

Platinum Member Joined: Sep 22 2004 Posts: 9754

I think maybe if you'd be a bit more open with your commiserations people would be less likely to judge you.

Yeah sometimes you need a forum for hugs too.
Everyone can "understand" what it is to live with a chronic illness, but the forum is nevertheless closed to all who don't have one. As a member of that forum believe me, there are things which only someone going through something specific can understand. And give a hand, and give advice.

From anyone else who isn't going through it, there is always a tinge of judgementalism.
So yes I am all for such a forum, having been there and done that throughout my mothering years.
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"Olam Chessed Yiboneh", Tehilim 89.

Executive Member Joined: Apr 25 2006 Posts: 404

I am mostly a lurker here because I find that people are so quick to judge and make nasty comments. It would be nice to have a place where it was understood that some women want and like to work.

I will regret it it for working women forum will get closed, the same way that I regretted it when the "mother at 35+" had to close too. I understand, but I liked ready them and I think even people not in these cases can have ideas or chizuk to give. Especially if they had the situation in their family.
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"You will have many many children and make successful shidduchim beh", rebbetzin Esther Jungreis
"It's all cultural, disagree respectfully", me

Platinum Member Joined: Sep 22 2004 Posts: 9754

Am I the only one who was really excited about this idea, but would be excluded because on a typical week I "only" work 40 hours? Does commuting time count? My job is definitely a professional career.

Silver Member Joined: Apr 07 2009 Posts: 791

Ditto on the amother above me.

Platinum Member Joined: Sep 22 2004 Posts: 9754

I wasn't talking about the weight forum but a different one. I was pretty vocal about getting that one started, so it would be kind of silly to try and hide it now.

How often do you forget your kids lunch? And do you think sahm's don't forget lunches and then not be available to bring them? Stay at Home Mom doesn't literally mean that we stay at home all the time. My kindergartener forgot his lunch once this year and I had an appointment and then couldn't get out of the house after it because of a sleeping baby. Teacher was flexible and gave him a bowl of cereal that he was thrilled with. Do you really think that someone would be crazy enough to respond to a "Ideas for doing homework when you aren't home" thread with "quit your job!" You don't even need to say how many hours you work to get ideas, I'm sure there are other parents who have had a similar issue at some point, even if they don't have jobs.

Diamond Member Joined: Oct 25 2007 Posts: 4916

"And now for something completely different . . ."

Rather than more and more closed forums, I'd like to know the age, number of hours worked, and number of children at home of any imamother giving advice.

For example, I recently read a post -- I don't remember the thread -- in which a very perky poster explained her organization system. There was absolutely nothing wrong with anything she said, and her advice was excellent. However, it involved a significant amount of work done in the evening between dinner and bedtime.

Now, I just happened to remember that she had identified herself in another thread as being 24 years old. I speak atrocious Yiddish -- I'm pretty much limited to ordering french fries at Cafe Au Lait and just pulling out a credit card and pointing everywhere else -- but I remember a phrase that goes something like, "Ich ken oych azoi," meaning "I can do like that, too!", with the underlying meaning being, "If I had your advantage(s), I could also do what you're doing."

I would be very, very interested in re-visiting this poster in 24-26 years, when she's my age and still presumably working full-time, to see if she still has the koach to engage in all this post-dinner housekeeping.

Don't misunderstand me: it's not that younger people know less than older people; that mothers of larger famlies have more answers than mothers of smaller families; or even that mothers who work more hours have different problems than SAHMs. The real key is being able to quickly "consider the source," as my Bubbe would have said.

I'm not suggesting this be mandatory, but rather, a way to let posters know whether you're likely to have significant insights into their concerns. And as for the people who want to make snippy comments about your choices, the best techniques are still appropriate peer pressure and active moderation. And to carry Cassandra's thought a tad further, sometimes it's not the worst thing in the world to be challenged a little. Being called upon to defend a choice can force you to refine your thinking and articulate your point of view in a way that is very beneficial.

Not to mention that fact that none of the doctors, lawyers, or Indian chiefs I've ever known were terribly shy about telling someone to back off if she pushed the limits of appropriate argumentation!

Oh, I'm 48, married 25 years, work full-time in a home-based office with other employees (this means I can occasionally wear a snood but no robes), have five kids at home as much as teens and preteens are at home (which means they sleep and do laundry here and keep a vigil at the refrigerator in case something new appears, Deus ex machina) and have a B.S., and M.S., and ABD ("all but dissertation" on a doctorate -- I dropped out when I realized that I could anticipate a successful academic career at someplace like Idaho State or piece together a string of academic jobs where the pay would add up to just under the salary of an assistant manager at any fast food outlet.)