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| shalhevet |
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 Posted: Sun, May 03 2009, 3:59 am Post subject: Re: re: Laniado- shvil haleida- birthing center and hospital |
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| chanchy123 wrote: |
There is no Shabbat elevator - so you have to decide if you're sick enough to ask the gentile to open it up for you are walk up 4 flights of stairs to the maternity ward. When DH came with then 18 month old DD and a couple of other friends with their baby they had to shclepp their carriages 4 four stories to the maternity ward.
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I know this is totally OT, but I suspect they don't have a Shabbat elevator because asking a gentile to operate a regular one for someone sick is simpler halachically than using a Shabbat elevator. Why would your dh have been able to use a Shabbat elevator and not one operated by a gentile? Maybe their poskim (and mine) would say he couldn't use either, and a yoledet could ask a gentile with no problem (she is a chola sheyesh ba sakana for 7 days, and a chola for 30 days).
Actually now I remember that in Maayanei Hayeshua I gave birth on Shabbat and a non-Jewish staff member took me up in the elevator from the cheder leida to yoldot.
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| chanchy123 |
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| Posted: Sun, May 03 2009, 4:08 am Post subject: Re: re: Laniado- shvil haleida- birthing center and hospital |
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| shalhevet wrote: | | chanchy123 wrote: |
There is no Shabbat elevator - so you have to decide if you're sick enough to ask the gentile to open it up for you are walk up 4 flights of stairs to the maternity ward. When DH came with then 18 month old DD and a couple of other friends with their baby they had to shclepp their carriages 4 four stories to the maternity ward.
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I know this is totally OT, but I suspect they don't have a Shabbat elevator because asking a gentile to operate a regular one for someone sick is simpler halachically than using a Shabbat elevator. Why would your dh have been able to use a Shabbat elevator and not one operated by a gentile? Maybe their poskim (and mine) would say he couldn't use either, and a yoledet could ask a gentile with no problem (she is a chola sheyesh ba sakana for 7 days, and a chola for 30 days).
Actually now I remember that in Maayanei Hayeshua I gave birth on Shabbat and a non-Jewish staff member took me up in the elevator from the cheder leida to yoldot. |
Actually it is not preferable to ask a gentile to use the elevator for you. According to many shitot - using a shabbat elevator is mutar mikar hadin, and most shitot say that bemakom tzorech gadol (a woman in her ninth months, a couple with a baby, a sick child - are all included). To ask a gentile to be mechalel shabbat for you really is an option for shat hadchak and not so simply used.
I would much prefer to be somech on a meikel shita that it is completely mutar rather than have to decide how sick I am to use something that is really to be used when there is no other choice. Not to mention DH with said baby.
On seder night my 4 yr old nephew had to be taken to miyun in Maynei Yeshua - my SIL and MIL had to decide if he was well enough or not to ask the gentile to do an assur melacha for them so they can take him up to the 7th floor!
It would be so much simpler if they would put a plack by the elevator saying that - according the Chazon Ish shabbat elevators should only be used bemakom tzorech gadol - so as not to cause a greater chilul shabbat and discomfert by using the less sound method of a shabbat gentile.
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| shalhevet |
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| Posted: Sun, May 03 2009, 4:13 am Post subject: |
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You are allowed to ask a gentile to do any melacha for a choleh.
(Unlike all those people who think they can ask/ hint/ arrange before that a gentile will do melacha for healthy people - it is called amira l'gentile and is assur.)
As I said, my (and probably their) poskim pasken differently from yours, and hold that a Shabbat elevator can only be used by a sick person. They are probably afraid that if they put a Shabbat elevator there, young healthy people will use it rather than walking up 4 or 7 floors.
When you build a hospital you can ask your rav what is preferable, and go according to your shitta. 
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| chanchy123 |
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| Posted: Sun, May 03 2009, 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| shalhevet wrote: | You are allowed to ask a gentile to do any melacha for a choleh.
(Unlike all those people who think they can ask/ hint/ arrange before that a gentile will do melacha for healthy people - it is called amira l'gentile and is assur.)
As I said, my (and probably their) poskim pasken differently from yours, and hold that a Shabbat elevator can only be used by a sick person. They are probably afraid that if they put a Shabbat elevator there, young healthy people will use it rather than walking up 4 or 7 floors.
When you build a hospital you can ask your rav what is preferable, and go according to your shitta. |
You see, I have a problem with them forcing me to go by their machmir shita (is a yoledet not allowed to showe with hot water on shabbat?) so I will do my best not use their services.
I think when you have a serivce open to the klal you should think of the klal. As I said before, it is way more assur for said healthy person to ask the gentile to operate the elevator for you. And according to halacha, shabbat elevators are an acceptable shita, amira legoy is allowed only in extrem cases. If the gentile would ride up with you and go about his own business, this would be less of a problem halachically.
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| shalhevet |
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| Posted: Sun, May 03 2009, 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| chanchy123 wrote: |
You see, I have a problem with them forcing me to go by their machmir shita |
I still don't get it. If you opened a hospital with you raising much of the money, and asked your rav what to do, would you expect that others should tell you to do against your shitta?
I'll give you another example. For Sanz eating machine matza is practically like eating chometz. Therefore they provide all their patients AT THE HOSPITAL'S EXPENSE with hand-baked shemura matza for all of Pesach.
Now, I know someone who only eats machine matza on principle - this is a known shitta amongst some Litvish people.
So, if this person was hospitalized, ch"v, in Laniado on Pesach, do you think he has the right to complain that he's being given hand-baked matza?
| Quote: | | (is a yoledet not allowed to showe with hot water on shabbat?) |
And which shitta says that? The frum hospitals davka ensure there is a hot water supply for showering without bishul, although it would still be allowed. Do you not know that a yoledet is a chola sheyesh ba sakana for 3 days, sometimes 7?
| Quote: | | so I will do my best not use their services. |
Fair enough.
| Quote: | | I think when you have a serivce open to the klal you should think of the klal. As I said before, it is way more assur for said healthy person to ask the gentile to operate the elevator for you. |
I don't know which is more assur. What difference does it make? A healthy person can't use either and needs to walk up the stairs. What do you want them to do? Station a rav next to the elevator to decide if the person can ride up in the Shabbat gentile/ Shabbat elevator? B'derech sheadam rotze lalelechet, molichim oto. They paskened what is preferable for sick people (a hospital, remember?) not healthy people.
| Quote: | | And according to halacha, shabbat elevators are an acceptable shita, |
When someone rides in a shabbat elevator they increase the amount of electricity used, meaning more electric connections/ fires are lit. There are other problems too. I said it already - it's irrelevant what your rav holds. They built the hospital. They ask their rav. Nekuda. Which hospital did dati leumi groups build for the klal?
| Quote: | | amira legoy is allowed only in extrem cases. If the gentile would ride up with you and go about his own business, this would be less of a problem halachically. |
Right. But I imagine most of the time the gentile stays right there in the elevator.
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| chanchy123 |
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| Posted: Sun, May 03 2009, 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| shalhevet wrote: | | chanchy123 wrote: |
You see, I have a problem with them forcing me to go by their machmir shita |
I still don't get it. If you opened a hospital with you raising much of the money, and asked your rav what to do, would you expect that others should tell you to do against your shitta?
I'll give you another example. For Sanz eating machine matza is practically like eating chometz. Therefore they provide all their patients AT THE HOSPITAL'S EXPENSE with hand-baked shemura matza for all of Pesach.
Now, I know someone who only eats machine matza on principle - this is a known shitta amongst some Litvish people.
So, if this person was hospitalized, ch"v, in Laniado on Pesach, do you think he has the right to complain that he's being given hand-baked matza?
| Quote: | | (is a yoledet not allowed to showe with hot water on shabbat?) |
And which shitta says that? The frum hospitals davka ensure there is a hot water supply for showering without bishul, although it would still be allowed. Do you not know that a yoledet is a chola sheyesh ba sakana for 3 days, sometimes 7?
| Quote: | | so I will do my best not use their services. |
Fair enough.
| Quote: | | I think when you have a serivce open to the klal you should think of the klal. As I said before, it is way more assur for said healthy person to ask the gentile to operate the elevator for you. |
I don't know which is more assur. What difference does it make? A healthy person can't use either and needs to walk up the stairs. What do you want them to do? Station a rav next to the elevator to decide if the person can ride up in the Shabbat gentile/ Shabbat elevator? B'derech sheadam rotze lalelechet, molichim oto. They paskened what is preferable for sick people (a hospital, remember?) not healthy people.
| Quote: | | And according to halacha, shabbat elevators are an acceptable shita, |
When someone rides in a shabbat elevator they increase the amount of electricity used, meaning more electric connections/ fires are lit. There are other problems too. I said it already - it's irrelevant what your rav holds. They built the hospital. They ask their rav. Nekuda. Which hospital did dati leumi groups build for the klal?
| Quote: | | amira legoy is allowed only in extrem cases. If the gentile would ride up with you and go about his own business, this would be less of a problem halachically. |
Right. But I imagine most of the time the gentile stays right there in the elevator. |
Shalhevet it is so much easier to read you when you quote like this, but it's really confusing to answer, so I'll do it point by point wihtout quoting.
1. I'm not telling them not to do whatever the heck they like even if I think they are machshil people in aveirot, but I'm allowed to kvetch if I don't like it.
2. Of course, I know that a yoledet is a chola sheina besakana, that is why I was so sursprised they didn't provide hot water for showers for mothers or babies. Besides a yoledet right after birth may still be chola sheyesh ba sakana.
3. hosptials serve all kinds of people in many different situations, I think there should at least be a guide book or a sign explaining what to do. If you're worried about non frum people, they will use the gentile also in complete issur.
4. See, DL don't build DL hospitals for DL patients with DL rules, they participate in the building of general hosptials for all am yisrael, upholding as much of halacha as possible, so all of am yisrael is zoche to avoid as much chilul shabbat as possible in their time of need. Besides, we have Shaarei Tzedek which is a frum hospital but caters to all sorts.
I think the hospital policy is stupid and not necessarily best halachically but it's their right, because it's their hosptial, when recommending a hospial to others this is a factor to consider (like havdala only at rabeinu tam).
5.I was thinking you could have a person in charge of the elevator, instructed to do certain stuff upon going up or down (like, whenever you go upstairs, make sure all the lights are on in the bathrooms, or when you go down make sure the garbage cans have bags or whatever) then the guy/woman would be doing this for thier own sake.
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| shalhevet |
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| Posted: Sun, May 03 2009, 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| chanchy123 wrote: |
1. I'm not telling them not to do whatever the heck they like even if I think they are machshil people in aveirot, but I'm allowed to kvetch if I don't like it.
2. Of course, I know that a yoledet is a chola sheina besakana, that is why I was so sursprised they didn't provide hot water for showers for mothers or babies. Besides a yoledet right after birth may still be chola sheyesh ba sakana. |
Really? I certainly had hot water when I was there (3 times).
| Quote: | 4. See, DL don't build DL hospitals for DL patients with DL rules, they participate in the building of general hosptials for all am yisrael, upholding as much of halacha as possible, so all of am yisrael is zoche to avoid as much chilul shabbat as possible in their time of need. Besides, we have Shaarei Tzedek which is a frum hospital but caters to all sorts.
I think the hospital policy is stupid and not necessarily best halachically but it's their right, because it's their hosptial, when recommending a hospial to others this is a factor to consider (like havdala only at rabeinu tam). |
The hospitals in Israel are:
1. Built by the government (eg Tel Hashomer)
2. Built by Kuppat Cholim Klalit (eg Kaplan, Beilinson).
3. Built by Hadassa (Har Hatzofim and Ein Kerem) - not a frum organization AFAIK.
4. Shaare tzedek - built by Dr Wallach and chareidim from the Old Yishuv (chareidi).
5. Bikkur cholim - Old Yishuv (chareidi).
6. Maayanei Hayeshua - built by Dr Rothschild (chareidi).
7. Laniado - built by the previous Sanzer Rebbe (chareidi).
So which hospitals did DL participate in? In the government/ kuppat cholim ones by their taxes/ kuppat cholim fees? Everyone - chareidi, DL, traditional and chiloni 'participated' if you want to define it like that. So what are you trying to say? I asked which hospital a DL individual or organization decided to set up.
If you knew the history of Laniado you would not write what you have. The Sanzer Rebbe had to fight government officials who assured him they were going to build 3 (?) hospitals in Netanya and his was not needed. To this day the hospital serves all the Netanya area - treating everyone who comes, with much of the financial burden borne by the Sanz and wider community.
BTW, havdala at Rabbenu Tam is your problem? (why is it a problem, exactly?) More of a problem is if your baby is born between zman hageonim and zman Rabbenu Tam, and they register the Hebrew date according to Rabbenu Tam!
| Quote: | | 5.I was thinking you could have a person in charge of the elevator, instructed to do certain stuff upon going up or down (like, whenever you go upstairs, make sure all the lights are on in the bathrooms, or when you go down make sure the garbage cans have bags or whatever) then the guy/woman would be doing this for thier own sake. |
But you don't need to - they are doing it for a choleh and it is muttar.
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| Imaonwheels |
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| Posted: Sun, May 03 2009, 1:31 pm Post subject: re: Laniado- shvil haleida- birthing center and hospital |
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Shalhevet, I think she means that DL participate like we all do - by paying taxes and dues to the kupat cholim.
When all hospitals are on strike Laniado operated business as usual because of the Tzanzers "machmir" psak that it is assur for doctors and nurses to strike. Many benefited from normal care because of his forcing his machmir opinion. When an Admo"r contributes a hospital to help everyone, not just his chassidim, and he did not have to do it, the proper response is hakaras hatov.
If the other hospitals were for the klal then they would serve food that all, or as many as possible could eat. People wouldn't have to be shomer Shabbos but they could be respectful for others. The Chabad Shifra and Puah brought me meals at my births in Kaplan. You should not have to go to SZ or Laniado to know when its Shabbos and YT. I did not appreciate having my Shabbos Seuda served at 4pm on Friday in Sivan. I did not appreciate having my erev, Shavuos, Shabbos stay made miserable from spite because they were not allowed to kick me out as fast as they wanted because they were on strike.
And we charedim pay those taxes and kupat cholim as well. For the klal.
That said putting maternity on the 4th floor is plain dumb.
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| Posted: Mon, May 04 2009, 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| shalhevet wrote: |
When someone rides in a shabbat elevator they increase the amount of electricity used, meaning more electric connections/ fires are lit. There are other problems too. |
Just FYI, I once looked at an apt in Shaarei Chessed. The elderly landlord who lived across the hall said she remembered Rav Shlomo Zalman coming down when the shabbos elevator was built to examine it and give his hechsher. Many shabbos elevators (those with a hechsher of course) have a mechanism in place whereby there is no electricity added based on the number of ppl.
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