Teacher behaving badly.

Posted: Mon, Dec 29 2008, 12:33 am Post subject: re: Teacher behaving badly.

I also think I know who I am talking to, and I echo the sentiment that it really is a side point now that the whole menorah incident and truthfully, the boys were mean but your dd did save face in a way that probably enouraged them to keep at it. HOWEVER, OMG!!! I honestly would (speaking a bit in hindsight) take dd out of school and homeschool for the rest of the year until you have a new teacher for her, how can you send her every single day to an adult who has such an attitude to an innocent child. I once experienced a teacher like that who said to his student something like "You must have a few screws loose" in front of the entire class. It is a shame the parents did not both have the guts to homeschool until that year was up for it really was not good for the child. Thankfully since the child happened to move since then & is doing better in another school. Then the principal needs to be told, while you may not like me very much & you may not like the way I tell you things without softening it up & sugar-coating things, you know I am an involved parent who wants nothing but the success of my children and to help the school be the best it can, I would think that goal of mine coincides with your goals as the principal so I do not understand why it seems to bother you when I bring to your attention things you otherwise would not know about, which I think you would like to know being as it only helps you out in the big picture even if you find me annoying. Ok, end vent, I cannot believe it, unreal. Mad

Platinum Member Joined: Jan 23 2008 Posts: 9074

Part of the problem is that you were very focused on the boys being disciplined & the teacher responded very unprofessionally. However, & I do NOT condone the teacher's attitude at all, I can see how he became frustrated. You were adamant that you wanted these kids' heads (not literally, I know.) As soon as he was so rude you didn't care about the broken Menorah. Now you really want the teacher's head (& I agree!!)

What he said was appalling. Frankly, he should be fired. I hate to say this, but having dealt with some parents who are a real nightmare (I too am NOT putting you in this category!), principals are human too. If your child's principal was having a really bad day it is possible he said something like what the teacher said & quite probably not about you! But hey, you were on the phone, not Mrs. Cohen, so you were "it."

1. The teacher owes you & DH an apology...in front of the principal. You must insist on a meeting with you, DH, & those two.
2. You do need to address the issue with your daughter. It sounds like she is easily intimidated & covers for herself with a show of bravado when inside, she's shaking. I don't know you or your family, but I'd take her for ice cream & in the car, discuss the whole thing with her & try & get her to explain how she felt. What's interesting is her reaction to the initial breakage: she didn't cry or yell or throw a tantrum. Why not? That's unusual. The boy felt bad & covered it all up by destroying the whole Menorah. It seems that the lack of communication & "honesty" is a major problem in the class.

This teacher probably compounds the insanity, but please, don't let her know what he said. She will be devastated & will have a terrible year. Getting even isn't as important as your child being happy & secure, but you should receive an apology. you are entitled to respect. As a teacher, I believe knowing what the teacher said will be so traumatic she may never have a good day in school again. I speak from my own experience when I was 10...I can see it & relive it like it was yesterday & good old Mrs. Cooper has been pushing up the daisies for years!

Barbara & Stepmum gave great advice! You can make this OK for your daughter. Just be very positive & calm. Good luck!

Posted: Mon, Dec 29 2008, 1:08 am Post subject: re: Teacher behaving badly.

If I didn't hink I was punishing my daughter, then I would pull her out. Also she is not an only child and has siblings in the school. So I can't pull her out. But I am afraid to send her tomorrow- but I found a perfect solution- my niece is visiting, and will go with her to class! She will report to me how he treats her.
There is no one to talk to here- DH called the principal to talk but I don't htink it will get anywhere.
Yes I wanted those kids heads- the hurt my kid- but once I heard from mine that she said, "I don't care" I can understand. It explains the story but it does not excuse it. Oddly enough I was only listening- didn't say a word until I thought I heard him justifying the whole thing.
He sounded very nervous - and then things got out of hand.
I think I may need to take the upper hand here, even if I call the armed guard he will never be disciplined or fired, so there is no point talking till I am blue. But I will have DH ask for an apology. A teacher can NEVER talk to a parent like that.

DD is unaware of all this- I explained to her that becasue she said she doesn't care, the boys took it as an invitation, and she understood. I didn't want her to think that they are evil. I also told her that she BETTER speak up if someone is bothering her! That no one can help her if she soesn'r ask for help. So she has no clue about what the teacher says, and will go in there her happy cheerful self. He better be EXTRA nice to her.

Posted: Mon, Dec 29 2008, 2:07 am Post subject: re: Teacher behaving badly.

First, because she said "she didn't care" that doesn't mean she was giving them permission to do further damage. She could have been hurt or intimidated or just not giving in to bullying, or even trying not to let the other person feel bad, depending on the circumstances. The children who continued to break the menorah should have, even if they felt they were being given permission. been educated to understand that when someone says "they don't care" it doesn't mean that one can then go ahead and cause further destruction. ,

Second, the teacher was absolutely wrong. Even if he felt that the boys "did nothing wrong" his conversation with you was completely inappropriate and I would definitely go to the board of ed and demand an investigation into the issue. Perhaps other parents have complained about him as well.

If you can not move your child to another school, demand that the principle or some other person in authority (NOT YOU.) sit in the class and monitor it to make sure your child isn't being picked on and treated in a vindictive manner by the teacher. You may want to hire an aide who can come and observe. Demand s/he be allowed in the class. Make certain s/he does not sit next to your child and that if asked who s/he is that the explanation is s/he is observing the class and the teacher and does not explain why. If an explanation is demanded or if rumors start being associated with your child the observer should say "I've been hired to observe the class and the teacher. I am here for all the students."
_________________
But then again, I'm a dragon.
"The best way to keep a prisoner from escaping is to make sure he never knows he�s in prison."
� Fyodor Dostoevsky (via cosmic-rebirth)

Posted: Mon, Dec 29 2008, 2:14 am Post subject: re: Teacher behaving badly.

oops, sorry OP. Missed the part about your niece going. Good thing that I believe.
And again, I want to say, that even if the boys thought she really didn't care, they need to learn that is sometimes, well often, a cover for something else, and they should have been taken aside by the teacher, had the teacher explain how people act sometimes when they are hurt or intimidated, and made to do something to make it up to her; apologize, perhaps build her a new menorah.

I don't think the boys were necessarily evil, but this was a lesson to learn, like many other lessons in life. Sometimes one learns by doing or seeing, sometimes people need an explanation.

Platinum Member Joined: Aug 12 2007 Posts: 20592

Posted: Mon, Dec 29 2008, 5:49 am Post subject: re: Teacher behaving badly.

Your niece can just waltz in and sit in the class to observe the teacher???

Posted: Mon, Dec 29 2008, 9:37 am Post subject: re: Teacher behaving badly.

waltz? perhaps walk in? shes 12, and visiting, we just need to notify the school. last time she went to class with another siblings, no one will think twice if she goes with her, and I have my spy.

Posted: Mon, Dec 29 2008, 10:18 am Post subject: re: Teacher behaving badly.

amother 11:33 here again (after a good nights rest and much more levelheaded) , I think by taking the high road that is the only thing you can do as long as teacher doesn't take that attitude out on your dd.

Posted: Mon, Dec 29 2008, 11:50 am Post subject: re: Teacher behaving badly.

hi amother 11:33- who are you? if you know me, can you pm me?
update, I took my older daughter to school late today, and as I walked in I met my younger one coming to the office to get papers. I asked her if she asked the principal if my niece can come and she said he said no. then I said to her are you ok? cause I saw soemthing on her face, and she said all the boys are taunting her and making fun of her saying, why did you tell your mother etc.
the secretary thought she was upset casue my niece can't come down and she called the principal. he came down and said whats going on I said nothing. He says what can I do for you I said nothing- I didn't call you down. He says but whats the matter- I said what difference does it make if I tell you, no one takes me seriously in this school.
He says what make you say that? I said well the teacher told me that he said that you and he decided not no take any of my concerns seriously anymore. I pretneds to look shocked and says wow, the teacher told you that?
I said that and he told me he desn not care if my daughter comes back. Princ says a teacher in my school said that? He says why didn't you tell me? I am paid to take care of these problems.
I said, becaseu I know that calling you is not going to get anywhere so I didn't bother. but I need my niece to be with her today, I don't she is safe in that classroom. So he says well you can pick her up until we resolve this, I said well she'sll be home forever then! So he understands that I don't thik he will do anything.
so he says, no we need to talk about this. I said well I know no one in this school takes women serioulsy so I have nothing to say, but you can call my husband. So he said he will.
I remain skeptical.
meanwhile he let my niece come to my older DD's class, and she said she'll see how shes doing by recess.

Posted: Mon, Dec 29 2008, 1:22 pm Post subject: re: Teacher behaving badly.

Hmmm... Let me preface this by saying that I am in no way criticizing you and am completely on your side.

The last meeting you had with the principal obviously didn't go over well. In his eyes, you probably did look like a hysterical woman who runs do dear husband the minute there is a serious problem. (understand, I am not saying that is the case. but that is probably what it looked like to him)

Coming from a teacher who worked in a school similar to what you are describing, the best way to handle this is for YOU to call him and arrange a meeting with the principal, the teacher, and DH. But if you want the school to ever take you seriously again, You need to do the talking. I mean, let dh show he is ticked off as well, and of course, let him say his part too. But you need to speak up. And it has to be in a level-headed, professional way.

In theory, everyone at that meeting wants what's best for your Dd. And you should make them feel like in that sense, you are all in the same boat and need to do what is best for HER.

If that meeting is unproductive, then I really suggest you bring it up with the board.

Posted: Mon, Dec 29 2008, 1:22 pm Post subject: re: Teacher behaving badly.

Hmmm... Let me preface this by saying that I am in no way criticizing you and am completely on your side.

The last meeting you had with the principal obviously didn't go over well. In his eyes, you probably did look like a hysterical woman who runs do dear husband the minute there is a serious problem. (understand, I am not saying that is the case. but that is probably what it looked like to him)

Coming from a teacher who worked in a school similar to what you are describing, the best way to handle this is for YOU to call him and arrange a meeting with the principal, the teacher, and DH. But if you want the school to ever take you seriously again, You need to do the talking. I mean, let dh show he is ticked off as well, and of course, let him say his part too. But you need to speak up. And it has to be in a level-headed, professional way.

In theory, everyone at that meeting wants what's best for your Dd. And you should make them feel like in that sense, you are all in the same boat and need to do what is best for HER.

If that meeting is unproductive, then I really suggest you bring it up with the board.

Posted: Mon, Dec 29 2008, 1:28 pm Post subject: re: Teacher behaving badly.

na I don't care if he never takes me seriously. and even if he tells me he will, it will never happen. let dh deal with it.
and I thought the "meeting" went rather well- I let him know I am on to him, that I know what he and the school think of me.
now, like a 2 yr old who is told, don't put on pj's and then scrambles to do just that, he was desperatly scramblinfg to prove that he does.

Posted: Mon, Dec 29 2008, 2:14 pm Post subject: re: Teacher behaving badly.

Sorry op, but I don't think your attitude w/ the principal was correct. It gave him no chance to help. I have been to him with problems and he does listen-maybe not to every little complaint, but to rational ones-yes. And he would have tried to do s/t about this. with the attitude you gave him, why should he even try to take you seriously?

I was in the school today as a sub, and at recess, another teacher said to me "oh, the 3rd grade boys are not out-what did they do this time?" Another child told us about the menorah incident. The teacher said that they are a very tough group of boys-and she want to take a sabbatical the year they end up in her class.

So I don't know what exactly happened w/ them, but there was some consequence.

A non-jewish retired teacher wanted to know where the teacher was when this incident happened-and that no matter what, he is responsible for what happened. If he was paying attention to his class, the menorah wouldnt have been broken. And his behavior towards you definitely deserves some sort of penalty (she would also prefer him to be fired)

Posted: Tue, Dec 30 2008, 8:37 pm Post subject: re: Teacher behaving badly.

Amother
I'm so sorry this happened to your DD! Crying or Very sad

that kid is a bully! and should be disciplined ...Period! Evil or Very Mad

As for the "teacher" sounds like he lacks basic knowledge in child development not to mention derech eretz and professional demeanor ....with the tuition we pay ,to get hung up is nuts!

what she did It's actually the correct response ...unless SHE is dealing with a cruel kid getting a kick out of pushing her buttons, your DD did nothing wrong ,she sounds like she was hoping that by hiding her hurt the bully would get tired and move on ,Art to children is very much connected to self they literally put themselves into it ,that's why they feel so proud when it's put on the fridge ... I took ECE and have taught Art and I am an artist... so you can quote me! Wink

but seriously ,If she did not care ..she would have not made the art,period ! so his argument is bogus.
Request a meeting with the principal and the teacher ASAP as the teacher hanging up on you is just plain rude and highly unprofessional !
People who don't have good derech eretz have a hard time seeing anything wrong with blatant rudeness. I'm NOT surprised he thought the kid did nothing wrong , the response he gave saying he does not care for your child returning IMO disqualifies him from teaching her (he might bully her) ,he is an emotionally crippled Moron who should be reported to the principal and not be in charge of shaping he next generation.

If the school is Under Torah umesora request to speak to the consultant in charge of the school also. Amother go to battle for your girl ,she will always remember and know ow much you care! remind the principal of how the way we deal with children today shapes who they become tomorrow.

If all fails and you are not satisfied TAKE YOUR CHILD OUT before she gets damaged HV'S! .
I had to do that when DD was bullied from K to grade 2 ,the teacher told her to stop complaining ,getting kid x in trouble and to not to speak loshon horah against the child .
she sleepwalked and cried in her sleep every night ,lost weight and was convinced she was "not nice"

she is now 12 B'h healthy confident and happy knowing that her parents protected her and put her ahead of community pressure.
My DD was so scared and lonely she left the school. People like that teacher should not teach as they can't separate their personal feelings and develop antipathy towards innocent children.

Puke

Executive Member Joined: Aug 19 2006 Posts: 451

A couple of things come to mind:

First, HUGS that your dd suffered this way. It makes me so Crying or Very sad

when children are torn down like that. I went through it, and I see how it affects my own daughter sometimes too. You have my complete empathy.

Second, as a teacher, I would be fired if I ever spoke to a parent that way, and rightly so. I have had my share of parents calling me and being abusive; although it is incredibly difficult, a professional keeps her own counsel and if she/he can't be articulate and calm, then s/he exits the conversation and puts it on hold, to be conducted at a calmer time. That teacher was completely out of line and your daughter is correct not to feel safe in that classroom.

However. Although I completely understand your skepticism at being taken seriously by the school, and your anger as well as pain for yourself and your daughter -- passive aggressiveness is not the way to get what you want. Bottom line is, you want your daughter to stay in the school and be treated fairly and kindly, as well as get a good education. *If* the principal really said to the teacher that you were hysterical or some such (and it cannot be assumed that it was a truth -- the teacher exhibited highly unprofessional behavior and very well could have fabricated or highly exaggerated a moment of frustration), you still would need to deal with him/her effectively. So, if he/she asks if there is a problem, be up front, be matter of fact, and be strong. Not necessarily in-your-face aggressive -- but assertive. You don't win points by having someone attempt to read your mind. The only thing it creates is another obstacle in trying to figure out a way to get things done for your daughter and other children.

I think it might be worthwhile for you and your husband to give the principal, at least, the opportunity to make things right. To get that to happen you have to go in and have a real meeting -- no veiled hostility, etc. -- just lay the facts on the table and attempt to figure out how to handle it.

By the way, just because your other children are in the school, it does not mean your daughter has to stay here. Al pi darcho, and all that -- there are lots of families whose children don't all attend the same school. It might be worth considering.

Good luck.