Moshav Matityahu | Imamother

Tamiri

Tue, Nov 04 2008, 9:09 am

Ruchel wrote:

Now, a town where every woman would cover in the right way for her rite, where no one would try to be lax because they don't care, where everyone would be on the same level of frumkeit (even if it shows differently)... I sign NOW.

Well, let's say that, if I understand correctly, the "rite", or minhag hamakom, is what Rabbi Leff decries. I imagine that if you want to be more machmir, you can. He probably lays down the minhag hamakom and you have some room to maneuver within that, but not much. He may decide no blond sheitals - could you live with that?

greentiger

Tue, Nov 04 2008, 9:18 am

chavamom wrote:

greentiger wrote:

Similarly if a woman were to walk around with a tefach of hair uncovered I doubt anyone would say anything, though if she would uncover altogether she probably would.

No, it would be an issue. As would someone having a TV or any of the other issues that you sign an agreement to agree to uphold while you live there.

Not to be nitpicky or start spreading a bad name about the moshav but I know at least one family there that own tv. No one is rushing to kick them out. In addition not everyone who lives there sends their kids to BYs.

Ruchel

Tue, Nov 04 2008, 9:23 am

avigailmiriam wrote:

Tamiri wrote:

avigailmiriam wrote:

At least, I think that's the way it works. I've never been to a moshav.

It's not "a moshav", it's this moshav. A moshav is basically a co-operative. Something along the lines of a kibbutz but it's less socialized.

Ah, ok.

stupid me, I remembered I've been in a kibbutz several times.
Wouldn't be for me either, for totally other reasons, and despite kibbutzim aren't what they used to be anymore!

Ruchel

Tue, Nov 04 2008, 9:25 am

Tamiri wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

I suppose so, although to me it would be annoying. But if some woman had this minhag of blond sheitels (I doubt it exists), I would support her in not abandoning it.

Inspired

Tue, Nov 04 2008, 9:27 am

greentiger wrote:

chavamom wrote:

greentiger wrote:

Similarly if a woman were to walk around with a tefach of hair uncovered I doubt anyone would say anything, though if she would uncover altogether she probably would.

No, it would be an issue. As would someone having a TV or any of the other issues that you sign an agreement to agree to uphold while you live there.

If they own their own homes they cannot really be kicked out.

Ruchel

Tue, Nov 04 2008, 9:37 am

I'm a conformist. But to my own minhag Wink

and find it vital to the diversity and health of Judaism that people keep and cherish their own traditions. In a time where in charedi circles many Sefardim and Mizrachim adopt Ashkenazic customs and names, and where in all other circles many Ashkenazim try to blend in with the Sefardim& Mizrachim (here at least), I don't care about being the only one doing or not doing [insert whatever].

I don't know if I'm expressing myself well, I'm a tad tired today.

ora_43

Tue, Nov 04 2008, 9:39 am

Ruchel I think you're confusing psak and minhag. Certain sephardi rabbis pasken that women can show a tefach of hair, as do certain ashkenazi rabbis. But as far as I know, while there are communities where women traditionally leave some hair uncovered, nobody has a minhag to davka uncover part of their hair (in which case, it would be assur for them to cover all of their hair). For example, my rabbi allows pants if they're baggy enough, but if I moved somewhere where I had to commit to only wear skirts, I wouldn't be violating my minhag of wearing pants because it was never a minhag I had to go out of my way to keep--just a psak that I wouldn't be holding by while living in this particular place.

I'm not so familiar with Moshav Matityahu, but AFAIK nobody is asking women to change their method of haircovering or take on things that their minhag would disagree with (eg, ask an ashkenazi woman to wear baggy pants if the ashkenazi gedolim don't allow it, or asking certain sephardi women to wear a sheitel). They're just being asked to do things that are permitted in their tradition, but that they wouldn't necessarily have to do elsewhere.

Ruchel

Tue, Nov 04 2008, 9:47 am

Quote:

nobody has a minhag to davka uncover part of their hair

not in the goal of uncovering, but either because the traditional covering shows some hair (hat), or the traditional hairdo does (braid).

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(in which case, it would be assur for them to cover all of their hair).

of course not, it's not assur. I'm just saddened they break the chain of tradition.

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For example, my rabbi allows pants if they're baggy enough, but if I moved somewhere where I had to commit to only wear skirts, I wouldn't be violating my minhag of wearing pants because it was never a minhag I had to go out of my way to keep--just a psak that I wouldn't be holding by while living in this particular place.

I agree.
Now, let's imagine you came from an Arabic country where Jewish women wore (baggy) pants forever (also China, but very few Chinese Jews are still halachic as some time they switched to paternal descent, for some reason). And then, you have to stop. Personally I would feel bad I have to stop.
If it's just a psak that allows me, I don't care unless health/comfort issue.

Quote:

They're just being asked to do things that are permitted in their tradition, but that they wouldn't necessarily have to do elsewhere.

Of course (except maybe the Bet Yosef problem?).
I never accused them of making people sin, just of breaking the tradition chain. Yes, I know it's already broken for many, many, many BTs and FTBs and even FFBs, but that's why it's even more precious.

mandksima

Tue, Nov 04 2008, 9:47 am

greentiger wrote:

chavamom wrote:

greentiger wrote:

Similarly if a woman were to walk around with a tefach of hair uncovered I doubt anyone would say anything, though if she would uncover altogether she probably would.

No, it would be an issue. As would someone having a TV or any of the other issues that you sign an agreement to agree to uphold while you live there.

I would agree with you that some members, especially ones that started the moshav, can get by without following the rules 100% but the point remains that it is a charedi, albeit American, moshav that sets certain standards. The house that I know with a tv doesn't get reception, just uses it for movies they have. It is not "allowed" but they don't go announcing when it is "movie night." You can also watch DVDs on your computer and no one will know. They want no tv because almost all of the members want that. They need to set a high standard so everyone feels comfortable. If you don't want you kids exposed to that then it is not allowed as you want your kids and the neighbor's to play together without worry.

The same goes for schools. I'm sure there are kids that have different educational needs and are sent to schools outside the charedi limits if necessary. The standard, however, is charedi. One doesn't move there if one doesn't agree with the standard as the best scenario.

There have been plenty of families that didn't last the first trial year. I'm sure the moshav decides fairly which things are bad enough to be kicked out for and which can be overlooked. The same goes for any school. Maybe they get a warning, maybe it is ignored. Do you really think people want to move to a place that has rules in order to see what they can get away with?

It is not for everybody. But there is a certain "safe" feeling knowing who your neighbors are and the athmosphere of the community. Personalities, minhagim, family lifestyles are all very different but they all keep to the same basic charedi standards more or less.

chavamom

Tue, Nov 04 2008, 10:14 am

greentiger wrote:

chavamom wrote:

greentiger wrote:

Similarly if a woman were to walk around with a tefach of hair uncovered I doubt anyone would say anything, though if she would uncover altogether she probably would.

No, it would be an issue. As would someone having a TV or any of the other issues that you sign an agreement to agree to uphold while you live there.

As a former member, I'm going to bet the TV is "in the closet" iykwim. You sure it's not a video monitor? That actually *is* allowed, but not TV/cable. If it was know they had a television (not a dvd player and "monitor") it would be an issue. It's part of the agreement you sign to live there and yes, you do get called on it if you don't comply.

shalhevet

Tue, Nov 04 2008, 10:51 am

Several points:

On a moshav people most certainly own their land and homes; the difference is there may be a committee to approve or disapprove of someone who wants to buy it, so you can't sell it to just anyone.

Ruchel, you have halacha and minhag mixed up. How much hair to show is a psak halacha, eating kitnios on Pesach is a family minhag. Even if you are Sephardi and you didn't eat rice in your family for several generations, it won't help to ask a rav.

And this is the way almost all communities were run for hundreds of years until mass emigration to the US, Europe and EY (when different minahagim/ communities got mixed together). There was a mara d'asra, whether you lived in Lithuania, Yemen, Tunisia or Poland AND YOU JOLLY WELL LISTENED TO HIM IF YOU WANTED TO BE PART OF THE KEHILLA.

avigailmiriam

Tue, Nov 04 2008, 12:29 pm

shalhevet wrote:

How I understood minhag used to be is if Ploni and Plonit moved from Vilna to Frankfurt, then they would take up the Frankfort customs upon deciding to settle there. People changed minhagim when they moved to a new area and started following a new rav. (Obviously, staying in touch with the old one was more difficult back then.)

Ruchel

Tue, Nov 04 2008, 12:38 pm

avigailmiriam wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

In my research (which includes talking to specialists), full switch took at least 2 or 3 generations.

Ruchel

Tue, Nov 04 2008, 12:43 pm

Quote:

Ruchel, you have halacha and minhag mixed up.

Is that a MO put down? I don't understand what you mean.

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How much hair to show is a psak halacha, eating kitnios on Pesach is a family minhag.

How much hair to show comes from how you cover. How you cover is a family minhag. If you're only allowed to cover every single hair, the braid girls and the hat girls for example will have to dump their minhag.

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Even if you are Sephardi and you didn't eat rice in your family for several generations, it won't help to ask a rav.

Actually I'm aware of some people who were allowed to take on their mother's minhagim, when she was the one doing the religious education.

But I said, on contrary, to keep the minhagim, contrary to Moshav Matitiahu. NOT to try to get rid of them.

Quote:

And this is the way almost all communities were run for hundreds of years until mass emigration to the US, Europe and EY (when different minahagim/ communities got mixed together). There was a mara d'asra, whether you lived in Lithuania, Yemen, Tunisia or Poland AND YOU JOLLY WELL LISTENED TO HIM IF YOU WANTED TO BE PART OF THE KEHILLA.

HUh? Isn't that JUST what I said? That it's like that when you come from the same community?