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| ChossidMom |
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 Posted: Sun, Oct 12 2008, 8:40 am Post subject: Ignore the Grandchildren |
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Ignore the Grandchildren
by Jonathan Rosenblum
Jerusalem Post
October 9, 2008
The Obama campaign is encouraging Jewish kids to fly to Florida to visit their grandparents over Columbus Day weekend. The website for the intitiative, www.thebigschlep.com, features comedienne Sarah Silverman instructing Jewish youth in Lysistrata-style tactics: Threaten to withhold future visits unless Granny agrees to vote for Obama. Here's another suggestion: Tell them that if they don't vote for Obama, "the goodest person we've ever had as a presidential choice," it can only be because they are racists.
My guess is that Bubbe and Zaidy will not be too impressed by such bullying; nor should they be. The grandchildren will seek to prove that Obama will is good for Israel, but their identification with Israel bears no relationship to that of their grandparents. For them the Holocaust is the stuff of history books, not a living memory. Ditto the U.N. vote on Israel's creation. They did not huddle anxiously around TV sets listening to the U.N. debates leading up to the 1967 war, when a second Holocaust seemed all too possible and 10,000 graves were dug in Tel Aviv in anticipation of war casualties. Many have never heard of Entebbe.
A 2007 study by sociologists Steven Cohen and Ari Kelman found that more than half of non-Orthodox Jews under 35 would not view the destruction of the State of Israel as a personal tragedy. The death and/or expulsions of millions of fellow Jews is something they can live with. By those standards, they probably would not see the Holocaust as a personal tragedy either.
Indifference to Israel, Cohen and Kelman found, "is giving way to downright alienation" among the under 35 cohort. Israel complicates the social lives and muddles the political identity of young Jews. Only 54% profess to be comfortable with the idea of a Jewish state at all. These are not the people to be telling their grandparents who will be good for Israel.
The grandchildren will cite Senator Obama's high rating from AIPAC as proof of his pro-Israel bona fides. Irrelevant. Every senator with national ambitions has such a high-rating, which is based on nothing more than voting for appropriation resolutions. Far more relevant to determining a candidate's likely relationship with Israel as president is his worldview.
Obama views talk as a universal solvent, and seems to believe that most conflicts can be solved by sitting people down around a conference table to air their grievances. That makes him remarkably sanguine about resolving the Arab-Israeli conflict, which he says would be a high priority from day one of his administration. The last time an American president made solving the conflict a high priority Israel ended up with the Al Aksa intifada and open warfare.
If Obama thinks there is an easy solution to the conflict it can only come in one form: Israel's return to its 1967 "Auschwitz borders." He basically confirmed that in a June interview with Jerusalem Post editor David Horowitz, in which he allowed that Israel might justify "67 plus" in terms of a security buffer, "but they've got to consider whether getting that buffer is worth the antagonism of the other party."
Yet an Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank would almost surely result in a third Iranian-armed and financed adversary confronting Israel, just as previous Israeli withdrawals from southern Lebanon and Gaza led to the takeover by heavily armed Iranian proxies in the form of Hizbullah and Hamas. Israeli intelligence officials estimate that absent an Israeli presence in the West Bank Hamas would takeover almost as quickly as it seized Gaza. From the Israeli point of view, withdrawal from the West Bank, at present, would be a classic example of Einstein's definition of insanity – the repetition of the same action with the expectation of different results.
Obama assumes that Israeli settlements, not Israel's existence, are the source of Palestinian "antagonism." But Palestinian polls tell a different story. A June 5-7 poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey research found that three-quarters of Palestinians do not believe that reconciliation with Israel is possible in this generation, even after the conclusion of a peace agreement and the creation of a Palestinian state, and nearly two-thirds think it could only happen after many generations or never.
Nor is acceptance of Israel any greater among the senior political echelons with whom Israel is supposed to conclude some kind of peace treaty. The Palestinian Authority recently sent its warmest congratulations to child-murderer Samir Kuntar on his release from an Israeli jail and announced plans for festive celebrations in honor of Dalal Mughrabi, the mastermind of the 1973 Coastal Road massacre in which 37 Israelis were murdered. Those gestures make it difficult to understand how Obama could credit Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and Prime Minister Salaam Fayd with doing everything possible "to address some of the systemic failures of the Palestinian Authority," (unless ceaseless incitement against Israel is not one of those systemic failures in his eyes) .
Senator Obama's faith in the power of words is equally dangerous with respect to the Iranian threat. In June, Obama told the AIPAC convention that face-to-face negotiations with Iran would be necessary before any military response could be justified. In the last presidential debate, he dropped any reference to military action and said negotiations must precede any strong sanctions, and must include the Russians and Chinese.
But the Europeans have been engaged in futile, unconditional negotiations with Iran over its nuclear program for six years. If Obama has a tastier carrot to offer than the Europeans, he should at least say what it is. As for the Russians and Chinese, they have made clear that their economic interests lie in supporting Iran, and that they will stymie any further U.N. Security Council sanctions.
The only result of yet another round of face-to-face negotiations, after six years of Iranian stonewalling, would be to give Iran with more crucial time to complete its nuclear weapons project and provide Ahmadinejad greater internal legitimacy.
An Obama presidency, then, would almost surely result in an Israel living within indefensible borders and in the crosshairs of a nuclear Iran. Bubby and Zaidy should tell their progeny that in Jewish tradition wisdom flows from the elders to young, not vice versa.
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| ChossidMom |
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| Posted: Sun, Oct 12 2008, 9:32 am Post subject: re: Ignore the Grandchildren |
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What? Noone up yet to tell us how great Obama is for Israel? Or how bad McCain is?
Oh wait. It's irrelevant.
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| HindaRochel |
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| Posted: Sun, Oct 12 2008, 9:40 am Post subject: re: Ignore the Grandchildren |
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I was so put off by that schelp for Obama campaign, it really was disgusting. Also his telling his cohorts to "get in the faces" of independents and republicans. What is this; election via fear? The whole thing is rather nasty. What happened to a vote is a private matter?
The article is very good Chossid Mom. I think it is the beginning of the end of the USA. As soon as a country goes against the Jews and Israel it fails.
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| Tzippora |
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| Posted: Sun, Oct 12 2008, 9:42 am Post subject: |
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Hinda Rochel: If you think that it's a problem to talk and encourage voters to go one way or the other - I have news for you - that's how politics works! By getting people to vote for you!
Votes are private in the booth, getting the word out and getting people to vote for you is what the candidate is SUPPOSED to do. McCain is (trying) to do the same.
Posted in the other thread:
First of all, I did discuss this with my DH's grandparents, who live in Florida. And I am frum. And I have as much of an attachment to Israel as anyone and more than most.
Secondly, slandering an entire generation of non-Orthodox Jews is unbecoming. Actually, many non-Orthodox people identify themselves as Jews almost primarily through their support for Israel. Not ideal, obviously, but certainly not this wonderful anticipation for the murder of Israeli Jews Rosenblum is talking about.
I have no problem with Obama sitting down with Ahmadinejad. 1 - Ahmadinejad has no power anyhow 2 - Sitting down by itself is no problem - in itself, it doesn't mean anything. Words matter, in building relationships and applying pressure. Bush never much understood that and it was a problem. That Europe was unsuccessful means nothing, and to treat this as: OK, we'll sit down and talk and suddenly they'll agree to stop the nuclear program - is immature. Obama has proved willing to use strategic force in other countries to protect American interests (see Pakistan) and I see no reason to assume that the same strategy wouldn't be in effect for Iran. And he's said as much.
Every American politician has basically endorsed the same solution for Israel - two states. And everyone knows that it is not nearly so simple as talking. Whether you agree or disagree is a different question. And I don't think the second intifada had to do with Clinton at all, for the record.
I'm not saying I agree with him on everything, but some of this is just silly. And besides - the issue my grandmother in law cared most about?
Abortion.
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| freidasima |
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| Posted: Sun, Oct 12 2008, 9:43 am Post subject: re: Ignore the Grandchildren |
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Boy am I glad I am in EY and ignoring this campaign.
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| Posted: Sun, Oct 12 2008, 9:46 am Post subject: re: Ignore the Grandchildren |
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| And what about going back to the 67 borders? Is that innocuous like "sitting down" with Ahmadinejad? Or is that just acceptable to U.S. Jewry.
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| Tzippora |
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| Posted: Sun, Oct 12 2008, 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| I think that's primarily what both campaigns have in mind, with some alterations. I also don't think it will happen, and if it does, it won't be because of an American president, but because of an Israeli PM. And as far as I know about Tzipi Livni, that isn't what she has in mind.
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| HindaRochel |
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| Posted: Sun, Oct 12 2008, 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| Tzippora wrote: | Hinda Rochel: If you think that it's a problem to talk and encourage voters to go one way or the other - I have news for you - that's how politics works! By getting people to vote for you!
Votes are private in the booth, getting the word out and getting people to vote for you is what the candidate is SUPPOSED to do. McCain is (trying) to do the same.
Posted in the other thread:
First of all, I did discuss this with my DH's grandparents, who live in Florida. And I am frum. And I have as much of an attachment to Israel as anyone and more than most.
Secondly, slandering an entire generation of non-Orthodox Jews is unbecoming. Actually, many non-Orthodox people identify themselves as Jews almost primarily through their support for Israel. Not ideal, obviously, but certainly not this wonderful anticipation for the murder of Israeli Jews Rosenblum is talking about.
I have no problem with Obama sitting down with Ahmadinejad. 1 - Ahmadinejad has no power anyhow 2 - Sitting down by itself is no problem - in itself, it doesn't mean anything. Words matter, in building relationships and applying pressure. Bush never much understood that and it was a problem. That Europe was unsuccessful means nothing, and to treat this as: OK, we'll sit down and talk and suddenly they'll agree to stop the nuclear program - is immature. Obama has proved willing to use strategic force in other countries to protect American interests (see Pakistan) and I see no reason to assume that the same strategy wouldn't be in effect for Iran. And he's said as much.
Every American politician has basically endorsed the same solution for Israel - two states. And everyone knows that it is not nearly so simple as talking. Whether you agree or disagree is a different question. And I don't think the second intifada had to do with Clinton at all, for the record.
I'm not saying I agree with him on everything, but some of this is just silly. And besides - the issue my grandmother in law cared most about?
Abortion. |
Talking to people is different then going to visit and threatening, or telling someone they are a racist for not voting for Obama, and getting into someone's face IS NOT how politics work. One can debate, but getting into someone's face is thuggery.
NO one slandered an entire non-Jewish population. Stats indicate that what Rosenblum stated was correct; this is a distancing between the younger generation and Israel.
I have a real problem with the next President sitting down and talking to someone the likes of Ahmadinejad without conditions. You can call it silly, I call not setting conditions and insisting on red lines stupid at best, and highly irresponsible.
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| Tzippora |
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| Posted: Sun, Oct 12 2008, 10:11 am Post subject: |
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Getting into someones face does not mean threaten, for heaven's sake. And I know plenty of people who aren't voting Obama who are not racists. Nobody is encouraging that, least of all Obama himself. It means recruit aggressively, be out there - and talk to Republicans and independents too. For my part, I'm a republican and supported Bush in the last two elections.
Nobody said the president meets with them before iterating what he wants and what the terms are. Obama spent some time at the debates discussing this.
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| HindaRochel |
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| Posted: Sun, Oct 12 2008, 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| Tzippora wrote: | Getting into someones face does not mean threaten, for heaven's sake. And I know plenty of people who aren't voting Obama who are not racists. Nobody is encouraging that, least of all Obama himself. It means recruit aggressively, be out there - and talk to Republicans and independents too. For my part, I'm a republican and supported Bush in the last two elections.
Nobody said the president meets with them before iterating what he wants and what the terms are. Obama spent some time at the debates discussing this. |
Getting into someone's face is obnoxious and rude behavior at best. Telling grandma that she is a racist for not voting Obama or that if you don't vote for Obama you are not seeing me again is a threat. And that IS happening.
The vote is a private matter. No one should be getting into anyone else's face.
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| Clarissa |
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| Posted: Mon, Oct 13 2008, 6:59 am Post subject: |
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People telling grandma they are racist for not voting Obama are dumb. Just like people doing the OMGBBQ OBAMA IS A MUSLIM!!!!11 thing are dumb. I don't think that's what either campaign has in mind - certainly that has not been their messaging.
I think you misunderstand the expression, quite honestly. It's just telling volunteers to get out there and be loud - not yell at anyone.
Also, I don't even know where you're getting the phrase from.
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| HindaRochel |
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| Posted: Mon, Oct 13 2008, 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| Tzippora wrote: | People telling grandma they are racist for not voting Obama are dumb. Just like people doing the OMGBBQ OBAMA IS A MUSLIM!!!!11 thing are dumb. I don't think that's what either campaign has in mind - certainly that has not been their messaging.
I think you misunderstand the expression, quite honestly. It's just telling volunteers to get out there and be loud - not yell at anyone.
Also, I don't even know where you're getting the phrase from. |
From Obama.
And get in your face and being loud is obnoxious, uncivilized behavior.
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| Posted: Mon, Oct 13 2008, 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| HindaRochel wrote: | | And get in your face and being loud is obnoxious, uncivilized behavior. | Somebody better tell that lipstick-smeared bulldog that. She's getting to be an embarrassment.
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| HindaRochel |
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| Posted: Mon, Oct 13 2008, 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| Clarissa wrote: | | HindaRochel wrote: | | And get in your face and being loud is obnoxious, uncivilized behavior. | Somebody better tell that lipstick-smeared bulldog that. She's getting to be an embarrassment. |
I haven't noticed Palin being embarrassing. I like her style. Saw a cute one with her helping her kids pick out a pumpkin for Halloween I guess. You can still hear when the image stops and she is telling Piper something about "you can't get a much bigger pumpkin than that." It was just such a normal mommy moment.
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| Posted: Mon, Oct 13 2008, 8:19 am Post subject: re: Ignore the Grandchildren |
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Watch the YouTubes of her rallies. She screams all sorts of crazy, divisive garbage, and the redneck audience screams back all sorts of racist garbage. Even McCain is starting to get uncomfortable about how intense and creepy it's getting.
Photo ops of picking pumpkins with her kids? This is what we're focused on, three weeks before the elections? I hope voters aren't so gullible.
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| Posted: Mon, Oct 13 2008, 8:24 am Post subject: |
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I haven't noticed her scream garbage, just facts. And both sides have had vicious, nasty, supporters acting out and acting crazy. The guys that burned down a McCain sign (or tried to) Hackers in a lot of my groups who attack McCain supporters. Hacking into Palin's account.
I have heard her speak truths.
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| Posted: Mon, Oct 13 2008, 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| HindaRochel wrote: | I haven't noticed her scream garbage, just facts. And both sides have had vicious, nasty, supporters acting out and acting crazy. The guys that burned down a McCain sign (or tried to) Hackers in a lot of my groups who attack McCain supporters. Hacking into Palin's account.
I have heard her speak truths. | You haven't read about the rallies where she calls him a terrorist and talks about Ayers and the crowd screams, "kill him"? Or the rally in Florida where people started to scream racist things at an African American newsperson?
You're really so upset about the hacker? This is less significant than her abuse of power in Alaska surrounding the trooper? I only mention that because I just saw a story on it, and it does not look good for how she behaved. Personally, I don't care all that much. But a computer hacker isn't so exciting. We're not talking Watergate break-in here.
I'm sorry, I still can't get over the fact that the predominant image in your mind is pumpkin-picking. I guess we need to see Michelle and the girls in a pumpkin patch, to know what the Obamas really stand for.
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| Tzippora |
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| Posted: Mon, Oct 13 2008, 9:43 am Post subject: |
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The Palin rallies are scary - and both McCain and Palin have been introduced by people referring to "Hussein" Obama and haven't said anything.
This criticism isn't coming from liberals, this is coming from conservatives: http://www.politico.com/blogs/....._fire.html
If I would have considered voting for McCain, Palin was the last straw. Hackers are one thing - and it was shown to be a random, isolated guy. When your executive experience has so much executive corruption, and your rallies are more like lynch mobs and you don't ask your followers to stop inciting hate - that's quite alarming. And that's besides for the fact that I do not believe she is qualified.
I know a number of people who were leaning toward McCain until she was picked for VP.
Aslo, do you expect campaign volunteers to whisper? In the real world, they approach people on the street or knock on doors to say "Would you like more information about Barack Obama?". And yes, they cheer and get loud at rallies. I also would like to see a source for Obama saying that, anyhow.
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| HindaRochel |
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| Posted: Mon, Oct 13 2008, 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Clarissa wrote: | | HindaRochel wrote: | I haven't noticed her scream garbage, just facts. And both sides have had vicious, nasty, supporters acting out and acting crazy. The guys that burned down a McCain sign (or tried to) Hackers in a lot of my groups who attack McCain supporters. Hacking into Palin's account.
I have heard her speak truths. | You haven't read about the rallies where she calls him a terrorist and talks about Ayers and the crowd screams, "kill him"? Or the rally in Florida where people started to scream racist things at an African American newsperson?
You're really so upset about the hacker? This is less significant than her abuse of power in Alaska surrounding the trooper? I only mention that because I just saw a story on it, and it does not look good for how she behaved. Personally, I don't care all that much. But a computer hacker isn't so exciting. We're not talking Watergate break-in here.
I'm sorry, I still can't get over the fact that the predominant image in your mind is pumpkin-picking. I guess we need to see Michelle and the girls in a pumpkin patch, to know what the Obamas really stand for. |
Seh said he hung about with terrorists. That was turned into a racial thing. And yes, people have been making racist comments as well as se*xist comments agains Palin. I've seen some of hte lovely little campaign posters featuring bloody mouths on McCain and Palin.I've watched how NYers screamed and gave the finger to peaceful march of McCain supporters. I've read so many lies about Palin; that she charged women for rape kits (big lie. Wasila wasn't mentioned in the meetings that led to the law changing and Illinois charged women's insurance companies as well for rape kits. The hospital charged. What would happen is if the woman's insurance didn't pay, the victims board paid. No woman was charged. What the chief of police in Wasilla wanted to do was save the tax payer and charge the rapist.)
And I think the whole thing with the trooper is way overblown. The trooper is still working. The man she fired she hd the perfect right to fire. So said the report. I don't blame Todd Palin at all for continuing to call different people to get Wooten fired; he should have been fired. And it was Todd's sister that was going through the divorce.
As far as computer hacking goes; private info of the Palin family, including private phone numbers and photos was pulled out and published. Yes I think that pretty bad.
I think what is happening in Ohio is pretty bad. I think what ACORN is doing is sleezy to the max.
Pumpkin picking isn't the predominant imgae in my mind. It was just something cute that came out recently that stuck in my mind that represents her; real. Which is the image I get whenever I hear her speak or see a clip of her.
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