Mishpacha Double Take

amother

Natural

Sun, Feb 18 2024, 3:30 pm

amother Yellow wrote:

Yes there are, I use them myself.
But I can still watch a movie in bed when I'm sick. I wouldn't be able to if I didn't have it in my house... etc... many more examples

And I totally understand why this chessed was hard for Nina!
Just wasn't understanding all the bashing of not having internet in your house.
Newsflash: not having internet in the house does not equal not approving of internet usage!

So get a filter that blocks movies/video sites/youtube. TAG definitely will provide this level of filtering.

This isn't just a chessed. It's a huge imposition to ask of someone on a regular basis, stopping in several times a week and parking yourself in front of their computer no matter what they have going on or if it a good time. Maybe literally 5 minutes would be ok, but not when it keeps turning into 30 or more. (BTW, it didn't even occur to Aidel to wonder if she should be reimbursing Nina for ink/paper for all of the return labels that she was printing up on a regular basis.)

amother

DarkGray

Sun, Feb 18 2024, 3:44 pm

amother Rose wrote:

I actually don’t see an issue with checking something for 5 minutes once a month. I have a neighbour without internet and I’d totally allow that with a smile.

What I do hVe an issue with is the 30 minute browsing, online shopping, going a few times a week…
Even if my neighbour had internet in her house but it was for example out of order, I’d consider that a huge imposition.

My more yeshivish neighbor did message me last year asking if her son can watch the superbowl at my house. We didn’t even know the superbowl was that day. We have no device that would play the Super Bowl and no interest in watching it. She thought we were so modern we were having a party I guess lol. So I told her sure he can bring your computer over and watch in my basement. She said I don’t have a computer with that on it and I said neither do I. 😆

If its a need for a consistent basis, whether it is 5 minutes per month or 5 minutes per day, then work it out on your own dime/time. If it's an emergency- an infrequent occurrence, then that's the one scenario that its ok.

If you would need a bosch machine once a month, would you go to your neighbors house and use hers? Why is this any different? If you're choosing not to have internet in your home, the onus is on you. You need to own the burden of having to go to a kiosk or work around it. By inconveniencing your neighbor, you're making her bear the consequences of your decision.

amother

Pear

Sun, Feb 18 2024, 3:52 pm

amother Yellow wrote:

Where in the world did you read into my words that I said it's a higher level? You seem to be projecting your insecurities on me...
(Like I said maybe the reason I don't feel bad when people come to use my internet is because I'm secure and confident in my choices? Idk- maybe you're not?)
You seem to be seriously confused about the concept of not having internet in the house. It's not to try to make it work for your house (ex. filters etc...) it's to keep it away from the constant use, the private at your fingertips use. Trust me I didn't have internet because of connection issues for a month and even though my next door neighbor let me use hers it was NOT the same.

Additionaly in your fury to respond to me you seem to have not read the portion of my response where I think it's totally OK for Nina to say this chessed is too hard for her. Everyone has boundaries. I never said she has to open her home and computer to her neighbor.
I simply don't think her neighbor is bad for asking...

Either way you're too angry to have a proper conversation.
so... I wish you the best with your choices.

You said "better," the Double Take article said "higher standards. " I pretty much view this as synonymous with "higher level," and that's how I think all these expressions are colloquially used in much of the frum community on this subject.

Not furious at all. But silly when people are kidding themselves or others. Again, if people just wanted to manage constant access or privacy, they could do so on their own internet with WebChaver, filters, admin access, and time constraints. They could even make it so they have to email someone else to open their internet access. I have zero privacy on my work computer, for example, and I know it.

But having it not in one's home has become a cultural marker for being "better" or having "higher standards." It is silly to pretend that it is just about limiting access or privacy. I am not furious or insecure, I just don't believe the rationalizing. But you are just repeating the same rationalizing, so we will have to agree to disagree Dont know

amother

Yarrow

Sun, Feb 18 2024, 4:40 pm

amother Latte wrote:

I don't think you're going to get anyone on here who's on Aidel's side. I'm sure that everyone here with friends/neighbors/relatives who don't have internet at home has been used as an internet [gentile]. I certainly have. Some people I don't mind because I owe them many many favours. Others - one friend in particular - annoy me greatly, especially this friend who kept telling me how she's so holy that she doesn't have internet but I'm not so the least I can do is run all her internet errands for her. Finally I told her that if she's so holy, she should learn to do without the conveniences of internet and if she can't, there are internet cafes all over the place and she should make use of them. I don't have the same communication problem as Nina, you see.

This is so interesting. I was totally on Aidel's side.

I really didn't think I would be the only one. And yes people ask me plenty to do stuff on the itnernet for them, many of my family members don't have internet.

If someone is helping me with my kid, I would be so happy to help them out. I guess this is the way of the world nowadays though. To feel resentment about every little thing.

amother

DarkGray

Sun, Feb 18 2024, 4:52 pm

amother Yarrow wrote:

There's helping and there is taking advantage. This world nowadays recognizes the difference BH. We are all quite happy to lend a helping hand when and where needed. But this isn't a helping hand - this is simply an intentional setup and enabling inappropriate boundaries.

To give an example. If my neighbors son needs a ride every Tuesday evening, would it be appropriate of the neighbor to rely on borrowing your car every Tuesday? Or would you expect them to work it out themselves without you being in the picture. Now, if they reach out one odd Tuesday that they're stuck due to unforseen circumstances, many of us would happily help out.

amother

Yellow

Sun, Feb 18 2024, 4:54 pm

amother Natural wrote:

You can read my previous post to get the answer to this lol

I'll help you and quote myself here and then you can wonder yourself where your reply came from:

Quote:

And I totally understand why this chessed was hard for Nina!
Just wasn't understanding all the bashing of not having internet in your house.

Quote:

I think it's totally OK for Nina to say this chessed is too hard for her. Everyone has boundaries. I never said she has to open her home and computer to her neighbor.
I simply don't think her neighbor is bad for asking...

amother

Yellow

Sun, Feb 18 2024, 4:58 pm

amother Pear wrote:

When I said "better" that term is for an individual. I'm wondering when in the world something better for me is also better for you and vice versa?
I'm sorry I in no way believe that it is higher standards. So again, you are putting words into my mouth.

Listen, you can do what you want but since you are saying

Quote:

But you are just repeating the same rationalizing, so we will have to agree to disagree

and keep on misinterpreting my words you are obviously having a discussion with someone other than myself. So if you want you can continue having that discussion with this person you created in your mind that is saying other things. I'm just wondering why you feel like you have to reply to me when you do?

amother

Yarrow

Sun, Feb 18 2024, 4:59 pm

amother DarkGray wrote:

So I guess I let people take advantage of me then. But, I don't mind. Many hours booking tickets etc. I'm happy to help with that, the same way I'm happy to go to local stores for my siblings to get clothes for them that they can't get where they live. It's no difference to me if the favor is because they choose not to have internet or for other reasons. We're happy to help them.

And certainly if my child would spend hours in their house, I would want to reciprocate.

(Your analogy is very different. A car has wear and tear etc. Though come to think of it, actually I had a neighbor who DID share his car with my father. So maybe it has been ingrained in me that we do chessed for each other. Key point is I view it as doing chessed, not as being taken advantage of.)

amother

Pear

Sun, Feb 18 2024, 5:00 pm

amother Yarrow wrote:

I would be happy to help a friend out with internet access once in a while, to renew a passport or to pay a ticket or something. But it would be a big imposition for someone to be ordering bunches of packages through my computer or planning with wedding vendors, especially if they regularly need my intervention.

If Nina wants to keep doing the favor (and I'm not saying she should), she could avoid resentment and minimize inconvenience by simply buying a cheap laptop to be dedicated for Aidel's exclusive use in a front room right by the door. Set it up with its own Google account with email and everything, call it something pareve like "Computer234567." Yes, it sounds odd, but practically it would address a lot of the inconveniences and intrusions, not to mention the switching of internet settings. And Aidel can keep telling shidduch references that she doesn't have internet at home.

amother

Natural

Sun, Feb 18 2024, 5:01 pm

amother Yarrow wrote:

Big difference with family members coming over and parking themselves in your house on a regular basis vs neighbors doing the same. Also, there's a difference between doing stuff for them vs someone coming over and handling your computer and using it (privacy issues, just for one....let's say you were looking up stuff abt private medical stuff and somehow the neighbor clicks on a browser you thought was closed, etc).

You know, the post about the superbowl requests reminds me of the time a family friend had some frum seemingly mainstream yeshiva type boys ask to come over and watch the game on his TV (this was pre internet being so ubiquitous) and he agreed only to find out they had used his TV to order and watch p*n films. I guess they weren't savvy enough at the time to realize it would show up on his cable bill. That was the last time he ever said yes to that kind of request. Once you let someone use your device/tv/internet, you don't know what they end up using it for, and it might be something you don't feel comfortable with.

amother

Natural

Sun, Feb 18 2024, 5:04 pm

amother Pear wrote:

Why should Nina spend a penny of her own money on this?

amother

Natural

Sun, Feb 18 2024, 5:08 pm

amother Pear wrote:

I said "If she wants to keep doing this," and that I'm not saying she should. Once I decide I want to do something, I try to do it the easiest possible way. If I made my cheshbon and wanted, for whatever reason, to keep this going, I would just buy a separate computer.

She obviously didn't. That's how the story ended off, where she was not answering Aidel's requests.

amother

Pear

Sun, Feb 18 2024, 5:12 pm

amother Natural wrote:

She obviously didn't. That's how the story ended off, where she was not answering Aidel's requests.

I thought she seemed conflicted. That she wanted to do it, but found it annoying. Like when she says at the end, "After all, I want to stretch myself and help someone who wants to keep their home pure." ( I think this whole purity mindset is misguided, but Nina seems to buy into it).

amother

Natural

Sun, Feb 18 2024, 5:15 pm

amother Pear wrote:

Having her daughter tell Aidel that it wasn't a good time after ignoring her requests was pretty clearly just Nina feeling too uncomfortable to say it to her face. That was the conflict--how to say no, not whether or not to say no.

amother

Pear

Sun, Feb 18 2024, 5:25 pm

amother Natural wrote:

We may be parsing it more than the author intended at this point LOL

but I just saw that as a temporary "no" while she calms down and that she intends resuming, but doesn't want to feel "overused" or "patronized."

Buying Aidel her own dedicated computer might also have the side-benefit of indirectly prompting some self-awareness on Aidel's part, but I wouldn't count on it.

amother

DarkGray

Sun, Feb 18 2024, 5:25 pm

amother Yarrow wrote:

A person's time is just as valuable as wear and tear. Same for privacy and personal space.

Your analogies are not in line with the situation. There is a difference between CANT and CHOOSE not to. If someone doesn't live in town, then of course I would be happy to purchase stuff for her. But if she chooses not to go out shopping because she splurges and expects you to do it for her on a consistent basis, that's taking advantage.

Additionally, there are many different forms of chessed. If this works for you, that's beautiful. But another person can be doing a boatload of other chessed and can be hurt and frustrated by said situation. That doesn't mean 'today's generation' values chessed any less. We can just be directing it elsewhere. There is so much true need out there, where people didn't intentionally place themselves into positions of needing chessed. People have limited resources and have the right to direct those resources as per their views.

Again, if this works for you, kol hakavod. But it's not a call to berate other people for not wanting chessed demands imposed upon them, by people who intentionally choose their situation.

amother

DarkGray

Sun, Feb 18 2024, 5:32 pm

amother Pear wrote:

We may be parsing it more than the author intended at this point LOL

What would be the point of that, lol. So Aidel has her own computer and therefore by extension has her own internet connection. Its just that the computer is being kept in someone else's house? And that makes her have an internet free home??

How about Aidel buys her own computer and sets up her own internet connection. She can then ask the neighbor for a favor to store the laptop for her, so that it's not easily accessible to her. She can go retrieve the computer when she needs it and return it when she is done.

Both offer the same amount of access. The only difference is in the first scenario she can delude herself into thinking that she is internet free.

amother

Pear

Sun, Feb 18 2024, 5:38 pm

amother DarkGray wrote:

Plausible deniability can be a hot commodity. And can sometimes save relationships. I agree with your lol, it would be silly. But sometimes, after one weighs up all the emotional and physical work involved, it is easier to humor people than not.

By "self-awareness," I meant she might realize how much she is using and how regularly.

amother

DarkGray

Sun, Feb 18 2024, 5:40 pm

amother Pear wrote:

True. I guess we should redefine the box for shidduch purposes - are you an internet chessed giver or internet chessed taker?

That should raise self awareness pretty quickly.