What do you do when your host breaks halacha?

amother

Molasses

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 10:19 am

amother Stone wrote:

You can have your standards and be uncomfortable, but you can't scream that she's breaking Halacha. She's just not holding how you do

Op makes it sound like she was surprised. Like her and the hostess live in the same community and the hostess's behavior is unusual.

It's not like she's coming on here complaining that the hostess wasn't serving yoshon, or even cholov Yisrael. Or wasn't wearing socks.

Yes, the three things she brought up are discussions in halacha, and there might be good arguments for both sides. But there is such a thing as community norms and standards of halacha.

amother

Molasses

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 10:24 am

watergirl wrote:

Why would you just decide not to eat, as opposed to take the time to ask your lor, or if you are a guest out of town and it’s YT, ask the lor of the local shul - I believe that you would be surprised to hear the answer.

Because I know what I hold and I'm not looking for the rav of the shul to tell me about a diff shittah or kulah that exists. It's not like I have nothing else to eat.

Cheiny

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 10:25 am

amother NeonPurple wrote:

Forget the host, and what she is comfortable with, what about ops husband?

Is it ok for him to be around women with uncovered hair?

Many hold a man shouldn’t make a bracha in front of a woman whose hair is uncovered.

We were having a Shabbos Seuda at someone we know well from Shul, we both use the Shul Rov as our personal Rov. I was standing in the kitchen chatting with the host and hostess and he takes a big piece of pastrami out of the fridge and dumps it into the hot, cooking cholent on the stove. I said something benign like, “Oh I didn’t know that was permissible.” He didn’t answer me. Afterwards, just to be sure, I ran it by our Rov, he covered his eyes, and said, “Oy.”

The more we eat out the more we see how many halachos people aren’t familiar with.

Then there’s the sticky problem with a certain neighbor who keeps inviting us, and I know for a fact where she buys her meat (not a very accepted hashgacha), she doesn’t dress tzniusdig at all, and I know based on questions she’s asked that she and her dh are not knowledgeable in many areas of halacha. So we invite them but every time she reciprocates and invites us, I have to find another way to politely decline.

Bottom line is, kashrus is a very serious matter and we all have to do whatever is necessary to make sure we and our families don’t inadvertently end up eating something that’s not okay. Sometimes that means declining invitations…

Cheiny

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 10:28 am

amother Cyan wrote:

I think the worst thing is to say something. Just don’t go back if you don’t feel comfortable in the future.
My mother questions every one of us about everything in our kitchen and it’s very hurtful , especially after working hard to make things special for her dietary restrictions etc. She started it with my more MO sibling and now does it to me and to her daughter’s in law. If she is so careful about kashrus she she eat at home and stop going places.

So I’m wondering if there’s some diplomatic way to tell someone that what they’re doing is not correct halachically (I’m talking about breaking actual halacha that’s accepted and known, not about covering hair or child turning lights on, etc.), because what if the person really does want to do the right thing but just isn’t knowledgeable in certain halachos, and they would want to know if they’re doing something wrong? Isn’t it an obligation on our parts to help someone that way so that they don’t stumble?

Cheiny

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 10:34 am

amother Melon wrote:

Depends on a lot of factors about the oven it's not so black and white, I have one oven so I asked my Rav, many people are way too strict.

What does it mean a fleishigs oven? When was it last used for fleishigs? Was the fleishigs wet or dry? Covered or uncovered?

@op can we stop Judging people please

I didn’t get the impression that OP was being judgmental, it sounded more like she’s concerned about how and if those issues affected her and her family when they eat there.

There’s nothing wrong with that.

amother

Olive

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 10:37 am

amother NeonPurple wrote:

Forget the host, and what she is comfortable with, what about ops husband?

Is it ok for him to be around women with uncovered hair?

When we had just gotten married, I had my husband ask his rav if it was ok if I didnt cover at home. The rav said it was fine. And my husband could daven or make brachas elsewhere.

Not everyone holds that a woman has to cover at all at home in front of her own husband.

Cheiny

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 10:46 am

amother Bronze wrote:

I have a very dear friend that I don’t eat in her house because while she keeps kosher, it really is not up to my particular standards, but I never ever ever would ever say to her that she is not kosher I just don’t hold by some of the things that she does, so I come over for dessert or the afternoon , I’ll eat a fruit I just don’t eat real meals by her

Just curious, because I have this situation as well… how did you navigate never accepting an invitation for a full meal?

amother

Banana

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 10:51 am

Cheiny wrote:

I think what the problem is that when most people read the headline the were expecting for OP to state something like the example you gave. Something that is clearly assur by every possible opinion. Instead, she gave 3 examples that are not assur at all. They are all more of a chumrah than anything else.

Cheiny

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 10:51 am

amother Molasses wrote:

I think that what some people are missing here is, being there already for the meal and then seeing in real time several issues that OP sees as possibly being problematic, puts someone in a very difficult position. It’s not the same as knowing in advance that their standards don’t match up and being able to decline invitations.

I don’t see her being judgmental, just concerned for herself and her family, albeit perhaps being surprised at the practices that she assumed her friend kept in the same way she does.

Cheiny

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 10:57 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

Yes this is halacha. Some hold cheese melting isn't dry though, others do...

So interesting. I was taught you have to double wrap if you want to cook dairy in a meat oven… I guess it’s just to be super careful.

I wouldn’t feel comfortable that the meat oven was cleaned out well enough of any possible meat particles, unless it was self cleaned for hours.

Ema of 5

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 12:34 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

Because I know what I hold and I'm not looking for the rav of the shul to tell me about a diff shittah or kulah that exists. It's not like I have nothing else to eat.

But you’re not eating, when it might be allowed bidieved (for you, lichatchila for her) might make her feel bad. Would it really be so terrible to ask and be told that it’s ok under the circumstances?

Ema of 5

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 12:41 pm

amother Banana wrote:

Not necessarily chumra, but just a different (acceptable but maybe not widespread) way of interpreting and paskening halacha.

amother

Steelblue

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 1:45 pm

You are all giving reasons and excusing heteirim to what occurred. It could be these were just examples (real or not). But the OPs questions was what would you do in that situation.

I was in similar situation once. We went away with my sister who I am close with - similar level of halacha, and a few other families. But turns out not everyone was so particular about / knew halacha. At that time there was no "getting away" as it was just our few families there. If people were violating what I though is hilchos kashrus - I tried to correct them as much as I could ("Is this X, shouldn't you do Y") but often I could not (either was out of sight, or too late to fix what occurred & would mean entire party would have no food, or was following questionable leniencies). For example - fridge light went on/off when door was opened/closed. I tried finding leniencies for a number of things (perhaps this is permitted by others) and trying to be DLKZ, but still a sour taste left in my mouth from that entire experience.

Another time I was at family, when light was left on (or off when should have been on) and the others told me to tell my child to turn on/off the light or take the child to the switch & for them to press it. As far as I know it is a direct violation of halacha for a parent to do that to a child. But what am I to do? Everyone is in the dark on shabbos, or have to sleep with light on?

The more I look into it, the more halacha I dont know. Especially with Shabbos & Kashrus.

Ema of 5

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 1:50 pm

amother Steelblue wrote:

Things which are permitted within halacha are not leniencies. The light situation that you described could have been handled by someone ELSE taking your child, or you taking someone else’s child. It’s harder when you are in a situation and have no one to ask. Then sometimes you just have to close your eyes and ask after, for next time.

amother

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 1:52 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

Yes those things happen in that house too!
It's my in-laws and no it's not the norm in our circles.