I don't understand Elul

PinkFridge

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 1:26 pm

amother Maple wrote:

I was asking these questions not so long ago.

I know that it is hard to see Hashem as good when there is so much suffering and we know He made that happen. I couldn't daven or bentch for a very long time because I felt the words aren't true and I was being gaslit to be forced to say them. המלך הטוב ומטיב לכל- how can that be true? .

And you know who wrote those words? Chazal who saw the churban, or were the next generation, who did see the churban of Beitar. And yet, being allowed to bury the harugei Beitar, and beholding the neis that their bodies didn't rot, inspired those very words.

These were people who lived through unimaginable pain, who held others' pain. And yet...

https://www.ou.org/holidays/ra....._bav/ See no. 5.

PinkFridge

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 1:30 pm

amother OP wrote:

I have a similar or very parallel question when it comes to the idea of "connecting" to hashem.

I feel like we can't communicate with hashem because he doesn't communicate back to us in a way that we understand. He tells us to do A B and C and when we do it his response is random. Health or sickness. Wealth or poverty. There's seemingly no connection between our deeds and his response. So how does one have a relationship under those circumstances? I hear people say "talk to hashem", or "cry to hashem", but am I wrong that we don't understand his response at all? What kind of relationship is that?

The problem is, Hashem does want to give us good, but we won't enjoy it unless we earn it. Hence bechira. When our yetzer hara for avodah zarah threatened to destroy us totally, Hashem took it away. But to keep bechira fair, we lost nevuah and the ability to see cause and effect clearly.

bgr8ful

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 1:30 pm

amother OP wrote:

Sorry if it feels like we are going in circles. The main question I have is really about whether much of what we say and do including our relationship with hashem is whether it is logical and makes sense, or is it mostly about having blind faith.

To me trusting that hashem is good and only does what's best is a classic example of blind faith.

Much of what hashem does is contrary to our human logic. Why innocent people get sick and suffer, why some can't find shidduchim, why some have mental illness, why some are abused......it makes no sense to us. Yet we repeat the words that everything hashem does is good and he is good.

How can that make sense to us? It doesn't. So that leaves us with blind faith, no?

yep I think so.

Thisisnotmyreal

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 1:33 pm

amother OP wrote:

Please look at your own life only. Don't look at anybody else. You can't ever see Hashem answering you? Ever??

amother

Maple

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 1:35 pm

amother OP wrote:

Yes and no.
If we were merely physical beings it would be blind faith but we aren't. We are also spiritual beings and our neshama has senses and understanding as well.

The more we connect to Hashem the more we can believe and trust, the more we have understanding.

amother

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 1:40 pm

Thisisnotmyreal wrote:

Please look at your own life only. Don't look at anybody else. You can't ever see Hashem answering you? Ever??

Of course I can. And I am hashems daughter and he is my father. But I can't deny what I see around me. Which is that the father/daughter relationship is not what granting me answers. I see the biggest jew haters prospering. I see the most righteous jews suffering. Should I pretend I don't notice any of that and act as if hashem is special to me?

Wouldn't it be silly to attribute what hashem gives me to my special status with hashem as his beloved child when I can see clearly and it is very obvious that this is not the deciding factor in how hashem treats people?

PinkFridge

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 1:45 pm

amother OP wrote:

And it must seem hard to say the nusach of the yamim nora'im.
I wonder, the people who wrote that nusach probably experienced the worst of Jewish history themselves, or were close enough to have authentic mesorah.
And yet they could say these words. Write them for posterity. And not choke on them.

miami85

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 2:20 pm

amother OP wrote:

To some degree yes, but "blind" in the sense of we don't know "m'sof ad sof haolam"--like Hashem does. I've heard the expression of "If I understood everything about G-d's plan that would make me smarter than, G-d, so I would hope that He is smarter than me", but in the mashal of "Avinu Malkeinu"--as children do we always understand why parents make us do things? Eat our vegetables? Go to sleep? Go to school? No, we have to understand that it is a temporary discomfort to make us stronger, better and healthier individuals in the long run.

I've had a hard life, lots of challenges, lots of frustration, but sometimes I get glimpses of how the course of events has led to certain decisions that I've made that have made me into who I am today. Doesn't mean that I don't get frustrated from time to time and I have to remind myself of what I just said above. Our children will whine and complain about how as parents "we're so mean!!!" but then an hour later when they have calmed down they come and hug us and tell us why we're the best parents on the planet.

The faith doesn't have to be "blind"--or "simple", and we may not always have abundance when want it, but when we don't have abundance--we sometimes see how Hashem gives "exactly what we need". When we don't always have "Amazing health"--sometimes we see how we had a good day, when we needed it. When we don't always have our bashert, then when he/she comes along we understand why that is the right person. We say "Borei nefashos, rabos v'chesronan"--Hashem created all neshamos some with more, and some with more needs. So Hashem created me with more needs, and perhaps that has helped me see Him more often when those needs are fulfilled.

amother

Freesia

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 3:37 pm

amother OP wrote:

[...] I feel like we can't communicate with hashem because he doesn't communicate back to us in a way that we understand. He tells us to do A B and C and when we do it his response is random. Health or sickness. Wealth or poverty. There's seemingly no connection between our deeds and his response. So how does one have a relationship under those circumstances? I hear people say "talk to hashem", or "cry to hashem", but am I wrong that we don't understand his response at all? What kind of relationship is that?

Isn't it so that we should do A B and C because they are the right thing to do, because the Creator of the universe as asked us to do them? I don't usually do mitzvot because I hope for a specific response. I do them generally because they are my duty towards Hashem and I want to do what He asks for and want to keep up the relationship to Him. If I light Shabbat candles, keep taharat hamishpacha or keep kosher, I don't expect any specific outcome for that. It's my feedback to Hashem, demonstrating that I continue playing in His team.

Tefillah is a form of communication that is not like modern phone calls or text messages where you hear or read the other person directly.
It is more like old fashioned letters written on paper and sent long distance. (I'm old enough to remember that as a major form of communication Wink

)
You write down what you want to say, but you are not present when the recipient reads your letter. You don't even know if he will read your letter at all, and if yes, how he reacts to your message. You get your answer when the recipient chooses to send it and sometimes you don't get an answer at all for various reasons. Sometimes you get exactly the answer you hoped for, and sometimes an answer you dislike.
In my perception, tefillah is a lot like that. Just as one can communicate with a pen-pal on a different continent like that and be friends, one can communicate with Hashem and have a relationship. Only a much deeper one, because sometimes one can feel the connection and the answers in one's heart, in addition to external answers. That's how I started believing in Hashem, I came from an atheist family.

(edited for typo)

bgr8ful

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 4:03 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

That doesn’t prove anything. You’re talking abt the more emotional part of it. Op’s question is abt the objective, intellectual facts that you can understand and prove. Not abt a “someone else had it worse and still had emunah” contest.

tichellady

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 4:08 pm

I used to feel the way you do and now I don’t as much. I generally don’t find davening to resonate so much for me- it’s really not my thing. But the way I see it is that each Jewish holiday is kind of an intense focus on a theme- so rosh hashana is really about accepting God’s power and embracing our humility, mortality and our devotion to serve Him. I don’t read the prayers so literally. It’s sort of a performance in my eyes to help reorient us. Hope that makes some sense to you, totally fine if it doesn’t resonate

PinkFridge

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 5:25 pm

bgr8ful wrote:

I'm not saying they had it worse but they had emunah so let's shut up. I'm saying, somehow they had the same intellectual questions that have been around since Iyov and they also personally experienced great tzaros. And yet they were able to write this, and it was intellectually honest of them. How did they do this? What can we learn from them?

amother

Royalblue

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 6:43 pm

amother OP wrote:

What you’re expressing is the ultimate of what hashem wants. Not blind faith but rather he wants to be in your heart. Not in your head.

To get there is a journey. And most humans struggle with that.

When you feel hashem you just have an inner knowing and an inner trust and its no longer blind faith.

It took much emotional healing on my part to feel get there somewhat. I needed to shed wrong ideas, not ideal upbringing, trust issues, control issues and ultimately opening my heart to him. Its about a genuine connection.
Explanations and meforshim reach your head. You are asking from your heart. The road from the brain to the heart is long and arduous. Its what we came down for. Connection.
Chassidic teachings contain alot of the heart language. Emotional healing and modern therapies also do. (Emdr actually has its sources from chassidus)

amother

Royalblue

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 6:44 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

They had their hearts open. They just felt it. It was not blind faith. Its the last century and half that is struggling with this.

amother

PlumPink

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 8:17 pm

OP,

I didn’t read every response but if the premise of your difficulty with understanding Elul is based on the fundamentals that the goal of Elul is to act in the correct way in order to ensure a year of smooth sailing, forgive me for saying so, but I believe you are very mistaken. By the same logic, do you understand the reason for prayer being in order to “get” something from God? For example, do you understand the goal of prayer to be in order to secure for ourselves health, financial stability and happiness? It obviously cannot be so, since more often than not, the sick person who prayed to be healthy ends up dying of his illness, and the poor man who prayed for wealth is denied it. That clearly cannot be the goal of prayer. And in the same vein, that cannot be the goal of Elul.
Before I go on, am I understanding your question correctly?

joystock

Mon, Aug 21 2023, 9:23 pm

Op, you asked how one can develop a relationship with Hashem that feels real and is meaningful. I have 2 practical suggestions:
1. Start looking for gratitudes each day. You can write down 3 things in a gratitude journal each night or share via text or phone call nightly with a partner. I personally don't choose to share general gratitudes like I'm so grateful that I can see, hear etc... Rather, I analyze my day and look for how Hashem showed up for me. Sometimes it's big and obvious and other times really small. This changes my whole mindset and I start to really see how Hashem is showing up in my life.
2. Talk to Him in your own words. Pray from the heart and then pause, reflect, meditate and imagine His response. Think about what you want Him to say back to you. Hear Him saying it in a loving, gentle, fatherly way. Some ppl call this "2-way prayer". It's a very effective way of developing a relationship that is real and intimate.
I hope this is helpful ❤️

anonymously2

Thu, Aug 24 2023, 9:01 pm

Op, I totally get it that there's no answers, or at least "we don't know the answers"

WITH THAT BEING SAID my understanding is that Hashem gave us this world with many different comparisons so we can get a tiny wintchy human understanding. FOR EXAMPLE

do you vaccinate your child? Does your child ever get a consequence that matches to what the child did? Did you ever cry along with a child while doing one of the above? I did!!

I WAS WITH THE CHILD AND I CHOSE THE CONSEQUENCE because I know it will "BENEFIT" him/her AND that's what IT MEANS WHEN HASHEM IS WITH OUR SUFFERING............
He chose it, he knows its good for us (go explain to your baby why your giving him shots) AND HES WITH US WITH THE PAIN were just like the baby and we don't understand!

DOES THIS resonate with you?

amother

Mon, Sep 04 2023, 11:44 am

amother PlumPink wrote:

Yes. I believe that when we daven using specific words directly asking hashem for something.....we are asking hashem for that something. Is there another way to see it?

For example, if I say, Please hashem I'm your dear daughter who understands that you are in control of everything. You are full of rachimim and love. I plead with you to please bless my family and I with health this year. Are you saying that this tefilah wasn't asking for health?