Fantasy in the Frum World

amother

DarkPurple

Mon, Apr 24 2023, 7:26 am

bigsis144 wrote:

For example, an action-exploration story about crossing the Sambatyon and finding the Lost Tribes. I feel like that would be a minefield if you wanted to be specific rather than vague about so many details!

This exists. I think it’s called The Secret of Sambatyon. (Edit: by Gershon Winkler)

Aleph Shin and Ten Lost also touch on this.

Pitspopany Press put out some sci-fi fiction years ago, from a crazy boy inventor to futuristic Jews traveling the universe to rescue the space scrolls from the dangerous Cholent creature. Not super high quality immersive stuff, and probably not frum enough for many, but it was a fun read.

bigsis144

Mon, Apr 24 2023, 7:35 am

To all the people giving me book recommendations, thanks! I have read some, but not all, of them and look forward to reading more!

I’m not trying to say that these books don’t exist, but rather why so few examples exist.

It’s like when everyone recommends “Sun Inside Rain” as a frum “romance”. I’m not saying it doesn’t exist or is a bad book, but rather reflecting on why certain genres are seen as “risky” to publishers, and hence why the same few examples are all we have.

It’s such a niche within a niche within a niche, it kind of has to be “perfect” out of the gate. It’s much harder to experiment and see what sticks or finds a small yet passionate audience.

—

And YES! DarkPurple, I absolutely remember the pitspopany sci fi anthology with the cholent aliens!!! 😅

sequoia

Mon, Apr 24 2023, 7:42 am

From wiki:

In 1929 Lazar Borodulin[4] published the only [5] Yiddish science fiction novel, Yiddish: אויף יענער זייט סמבטיון : וויסענשאפטליכער און פאנטאסטישער ראמאן, romanized: Oyf yener zayt sambatyen, visnshaftlekher un fantastisher roman (On the other side of the Sambation, a scientific and fantastic novel), a novel in the "lost world" genre, written in a Jewish perspective.[6] In the novel a journalist meets a mad scientist with a ray gun in the land of the Red Jews.[7]

PinkFridge

Mon, Apr 24 2023, 8:21 am

bigsis144 wrote:

I know many people enjoy the “Let My Nation…” series of dramatized depictions of Tanach events like Yetzias Mitzrayim or the Purim story, and it’s admirable how meticulously sourced they are.

But at what point is an author allowed to add their own imagination without worrying about getting “permission” to do so? Or even just *omit* a detail from the sources because it just doesn’t fit to, I don’t know, say that Esther was literally as green as a leaf?

For example, an action-exploration story about crossing the Sambatyon and finding the Lost Tribes. I feel like that would be a minefield if you wanted to be specific rather than vague about so many details!

https://www.israelbookshoppubl.....0.htm

https://mishpacha.com/beyond-t.....er-5/

Did xxxx write something about the Sambatyon?

Dual Discovery was a great book. And I liked The Decree and its premise: a girl runs away rather than be taken by Achashveiros.

Edited to delete name of Sambatyon book. I was thinking of Gershon Winkler.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Mon, Apr 24 2023, 8:23 am; edited 2 times in total

PinkFridge

Mon, Apr 24 2023, 8:21 am

scruffy wrote:

Meir Uri Gottesman has some historical fantasy-adjacent works where he adds some of his own details.

The Harp. And Morningstar is a magnificent depiction of the last para adumah.

daagahminayin

Mon, Apr 24 2023, 8:41 am

bigsis144 wrote:

Why There Will Never Be Good Frum Science Fiction/Fantasy, by bigsis144 (originally written October 2013)

I'm gonna ramble!
Warning, this is long!!

I don't have the budget to buy many books at all, and so most of the books I read are from the public library near my house. I finally got access to a Jewish library this week, and I was excited to bring some books home to be my Shabbos reading.

One book had an intriguing premise -- from the cover blurb, it sounded like it was a frum attempt at something Narnia-esque: a group of friends find a hidden realm where they have fantastic adventures and grow as people.

I didn't expect much (I don't usually expect much from frum fiction), and unfortunately, my low expectations were met. (I do respect the author for trying though! This is uncharted territory and I'm glad something even slightly different is on the market!)

Anyway, I started thinking about why there will never be good frum science fiction or fantasy.

1. Neither "science" nor "fiction" is valued
Art doesn't have a place in frumkeit, no matter what people tell you. At best, art is a wholesome hobby that brings joy to yourself and others, but art for art's sake is NOT a Jewish concept.

So fiction is at best a means for giving over a message. That means a character must pay for his/her flaws and endings must have a tidy moral. Anti-heroes or sympathetic villains that are there simply because they represent a complex facet of human nature, or because they're cool? No way.

And science? Again, utility is key. No matter what people tell you about the amazing math the Sanhedrin had to calculate the moon's cycles, or that the Ralbag wrote on trigonometry -- it still had a practical purpose. There were no great Jewish theoretical mathematicians until Jews started becoming secular. It's just not a priority in the Torah world.

So fiction that explores scientific progress? Those imagination muscles get no exercise.

2. World building is too difficult
One of my favorite things about fiction is world building. I want to lose myself in a book (or tv show or movie) and travel to Middle Earth or an alternate version of Chicago with wizards and vampires and zombie dinosaurs or Never-Never Land or a dystopic future North America or travel through time and space in a flying blue police box or a million other things. Even if a book's characters or plot are complete derivative garbage, I'll respect an author for trying to create new rules to make their world different. (Sparkly vampires who play baseball? Hey, at least no one's ever tried that before.)

Worlds built by frummies are already limited in so many ways because of the questions they raise for frum people.
No magic -- unless it's describing Pharaoh's magicians or something. (And I think all frum writers and readers would shy away from referencing any “real” demonology, golem creation, exorcism, etc. as being completely inappropriate for fiction, verging on blasphemy and either trivializing or giving power to these kochos.) No good guys can ever have magic powers. (Do mutant powers count as magic? Controlling the weather or something like that might be too major, but what about Spidey-type powers? I guess an Iron Man or Batman with superior technology could exist, but it's not their tech that makes them interesting.)
No aliens, elves or other sapient races parallel to humanity -- too many questions raised. Do they have souls? Do they/can they have Torah? Can a human-level-intelligent octopus creature convert to Judaism?

Even just leaving Earth has so many halachic shailos. When do you daven you're lightyears away from the Sun? If there was a moon colony, would you look down when saying Kiddush Levana? Which could be fascinating to explore, but in reality may end up bogging down a story.

For example, in the book I was reading over Shabbos, when discussing a trip to the North Pole:

Quote:

Akiva's eyes lit up. "I'll travel the world with you?"
"Whatever parts we get to in the time we have together."
"How much time do we have together?" Akiva asked. "When do I go back home?"
"One year," Allery replied. "Don't worry. When the year is up, you'll find yourself back home, full of exciting adventures."
"But where will we eat? Do you know that I eat only kosher food?"
"Yes, I know. That's taken care of. Don't worry about it."
"What do you mean, 'it's taken care of?' How?"
"You'll see as we travel. Here, look at this, for example." Allery opened a bag filled with packages of food bearing an excellent hechsher.

Just awkward.

3. Staying within the frum world

Frum literature tends to stay within the frum world. An insular way of life leads to a limited cast of characters. Non-Jewish or non-frum characters, even if portrayed positively, are always "others".

From the book:

Quote:

So we just sit here with our hands folded until this iceberg sinks into the sea?" Akiva asked in despair.
He was about to sit down on the ice, but Allery stopped him. "Don't," he said in warning. "You might freeze if you do that!"
"So what?" Akiva said hopelessly. "We've going to die in any case, aren't we? Won't it go faster if we freeze to death?"
"Akiva," Allery said gently, "don't the Jews believe that one should never despair of G-d's mercy?"
"How do you know that?" Akiva asked. He began to sing a song he had learned in school: "Afilu cherev chadah munachas al tzavaro shel adam, al yimna atzmo min harachamim, Even if a sharp sword lies against a person's neck, he should not despair of Hashem's mercy." As he murmured the words, he felt a spark of hope igniting in his heart. He recited a few chapters of Tehillim that he knew by heart and prayed to Hashem with all his might. Hot tears flowed from his eyes and froze immediately on his cheeks.
"Please, Hashem," Akiva davened fervently, "rescue us from this iceberg. I promise to learn more, to daven better, to do chessed. Please Hashem..."
Allery watched him in silence. Akiva thought he understood Allery's silence. What was a non-Jew to make of the passionate tefillos of a Jew whose life was in danger? He probably felt that Akiva was doing something he could not. Of course non-Jews can pray too, but only Jews feel that extra-close bond with Hashem. Only Yidden know the meaning true emunah, of fully believing that everything that happens is truly for the best.

You know what this reminds me of? The OLD, OLD adventure-style books, like Robinson Crusoe or Moby d!ck. Even if the "savages" were good people, the authors always write things like, "He was a good man, although he was not a Christian."

4. Mashiach will have come in the future!
You can't write about the year 2,300 because Mashiach HAS to come by the Jewish year 6000 which is 2239. K'fira.

5. We just can't stop moralizing
There are plenty of fiction-writers who happen to be religious, but even when they got blatantly allegorical (*cough* C.S. Lewis *cough*), they knew where to stop. They may let their ideals inform their writing, but they can let go of their religion enough to create their world and plot and characters.
I don't think frum literature will ever do that.

Also, I think most sci-fi has a specifically secular humanist agenda. You can have religious characters, and even if they're portrayed positively, religion is simply portrayed as "yay, that works for you, but is unnecessary for other people."

I think all this may eventually make a cool essay, I'm just throwing this out for your thoughts. What do you think?

What an excellent post! I agree with every word.

bigsis144

Mon, Apr 24 2023, 9:25 am

Adding onto point #3 from my original ramble:

So not only can we not extrapolate into speculative science, or go wild with purely invented magic systems (as compared to the “wow didn’t things in the time of the bais hamikdash feel magical??” historical quasi-fantasy genre)…

We can’t do speculative cultures.

Because I think at the heart of inventing cultures or even species is an underlying empathy for them, and how what might appear strange to us may still have an underlying “humanity”.

And that’s a universalist theme and value, rather than a Jewish one. We aren’t encouraged to delve too deep into existing religions; how could we invent one that doesn’t exist purely for contrast against the “perfection” of Judaism?

I’m not saying Judaism is inherently racist or whatever - everyone has a tzelem Elokim, there are righteous among the nations, etc etc - just that multiculturalism isn’t a value in a “v’al ken nekaveh lecha… lir’os meheira b’siferes uzecha l’haavir gilulim min ha’aretz…” value system. You just straight up can’t invent an alien lizardfolk species to whom eiver min hachai is normal unless you condemn them for violating the 7 Mitzvos Bnei Noach, for example?? And that’s just an example of clear-cut halacha! For many people, frum culture is as foundational as Halacha, so a speculative culture/species is even further limited by potential readers being offended by things like very “different from us” gender roles, attitudes toward religion/authority/conformity/parental units, etc.

Lots of “realistic” sci fi features Mormons or Jesuits as space missionaries, wishing to expand their religion or Save aliens. But we don’t proselytize, so we may build a Chabad house on Mars, but would we build a generation ship that leaves Earth behind? (Also, the idea of a “ruined” earth is blasphemous to many)

Last edited by bigsis144 on Mon, Apr 24 2023, 11:00 am; edited 4 times in total

scruffy

Mon, Apr 24 2023, 9:37 am

bigsis144 wrote:

Off topic, but in Brandon Sanderson's books, religion is a major theme. I've always wondered how he reconciles that with his Mormon beliefs, and how accepted he/ his books are in his community.

bigsis144

Mon, Apr 24 2023, 9:40 am

I LOVE BRANDO SANDO.

I think he is considered quite left wing among Mormons. He is very liberal in terms of gay representation, etc.

I think he does some of the best and most nuanced depictions of religion in fantasy.

Many modern mainstream fantasy/sci-fi books either ignore religion (it’s just kinda there and irrelevant) or show it as evil/manipulative. American culture is pretty secular, so having organized religion/religious figures play an antagonistic role is easy. The protagonist is usually vaguely “good”-aligned rather than following a religion themselves.

Brandon Sanderson doesn’t shy away from criticizing organized religion, but it’s more about individuals being power hungry or hypocritical than the entire concept of religion being assumed evil. Hrathen in Elantris is a fascinating character because of how he struggles with his religious beliefs and duties.

Sanderson has characters who find real comfort and meaning and direction in religion, and the narrative doesn’t consider them dumb or naive for doing so. I don’t take that respect for granted.

Wolfsbane

Tue, Apr 25 2023, 11:32 am

What do we mean by frum fantasy, though? Is it enough to be written by frum people, or does it need to contain Jewish or frum characters?

I think Sanderson is an interesting example, in this respect. He is a Mormon fantasy author, but I would not classify his books as Mormon fantasy; they do not contain Mormon characters (even if they are presumably influenced by Sanderson's beliefs) and are not set in the real world, but in Sanderson's fictional universe, the Cosmere. If a frum person wrote fantasy that wasn't specifically about Jews, would we consider it frum fantasy?

Judaism exists in the real world, while fantasy, by definition, does not. That makes the two hard to mix. If you go for more of a low-fantasy setting, magic is still complicated; is it kishuf? Is the existence of these fantastical elements philosophically compatible with Judaism? Of course, you can go in the opposite direction - writing about more "fantastical" (for lack of a better word) concepts that do appear within our tradition: golems, shedim etc. - though those topics would be complex to navigate hashkafically.

(I agree that when it comes to scifi, one main barrier is that imagining a future world [especially if far in the future] where mashiach has not yet come feels overly pessimistic, but I think it would be 100% fascinating to read frum scifi, since the barrier here is far more permeable.)

For the record, Tolkien, who was Catholic, expressed a sort of discomfort at explicitly mixing fantasy and religion. He wrote "I was from early days grieved by the poverty of my own beloved country: it had no stories of its own...not of the quality that I sought, and found...in legends of other lands...but nothing English...Of course, there was and is all the Arthurian world, but powerful as it is, it is imperfectly naturalized....and does not replace what I felt to be missing. For one thing, its 'faerie' is too lavish...For another and more important thing: it is involved in, and explicitly contains the Christian religion. For reasons which I will not elaborate, that seems to me fatal. Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error), but not explicit, not in the known form of the primary 'real' world...." (Letter to Milton Waldman, found in the front pages of many editions of the Silmarillion)

bigsis144

Tue, Apr 25 2023, 2:07 pm

Wolfsbane wrote:

Awesome post, Wolfsbane (“Judaism exists in the real world, fantasy does not” is a perfect distillation of my thoughts on the subject). I love your username, I love that you quote the Silmarillion, let’s be buddies 😄

I know a frum author, Leah Cypess, who writes middle grade and YA fantasy novels.

But, like Sanderson, in NO WAY are they “Jewish” novels.

(Interestingly, she uses her real name for the fantasy books and a pen name for the books she writes on frum topics for frum publishers.)

amother

Buttercup

Tue, Apr 25 2023, 2:44 pm

I think a lot of this depends too on how deeply the author wishes to go into the worldbuilding or how critically a reader thinks about it. There are plenty of low fantasy settings which don’t explain where the magic comes from or why it exists. You can explain away the issur of kishuf by specifying that it means a certain kind of magic or conjuring (a Dark kind, even, which would make it far easier to swallow) and that some other kind of magic, which has been around since time immemorial and goes by some other Hebrew name that isn’t kishuf. When worldbuilding fantasy, you have the leeway to say, “well, that thing is bad, but this thing is actually fine and accepted,” and a reader will usually be fine with that.

I recently worked on a spec/fantasy book in which everyone in the world is frum, there is never any explanation given for why that is or how it came to pass, and there are also ancient texts that can summon demons. I don’t justify why they exist, it’s just an accepted element of the story. But it’s being written for a secular publisher, and I don’t know if a frum publisher would take it. They have to appeal to the lowest common denominator in order to have a profitable business model, and so they avoid taking chances on anything outside the box.

PinkFridge

Tue, Apr 25 2023, 2:56 pm

Wolfsbane wrote:

What do we mean by frum fantasy, though? Is it enough to be written by frum people, or does it need to contain Jewish or frum characters?

If being written by a frum author makes it frum, then Cam Jansen is a frum book.

Wolfsbane

Tue, Apr 25 2023, 3:00 pm

bigsis144 wrote:

Aww, thanks bigsis144!
Should I check out Leah Cypess's books?

Wolfsbane

Tue, Apr 25 2023, 3:01 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

If being written by a frum author makes it frum, then Cam Jansen is a frum book.

Wait...really?!

PinkFridge

Tue, Apr 25 2023, 3:06 pm

Wolfsbane wrote:

Wait...really?!

Yes, David Adler is frum.
Pretty sure it's the same one: https://www.artscroll.com/Auth.....html.

bigsis144

Tue, Apr 25 2023, 4:01 pm

Wolfsbane wrote:

Aww, thanks bigsis144!
Should I check out Leah Cypess's books?

Leah Cypess’s middle grade “Sisters Ever After” series is cute - they’re about the untold stories of the little-known sisters of famous fairy tale characters like Sleeping Beauty and Cinderella. I have pretty high standards, and these aren’t as rich and deep as Gail Carson Levine’s retold fairy tales, but for young readers they’re just fine.

I do like that she deliberately makes her princesses distinct from the Disney version - Sleeping Beauty is raven-haired, not blonde, for example. I appreciate all efforts to stave off Disney Supremacy and their portrayals being seen as somehow more “correct” 👍

Her YA books are also fine, just not my cup of tea.

zaq

Tue, Apr 25 2023, 4:49 pm

I never pictured Sleeping Beauty as blonde. In my childhood books, she had black hair. Just saying.

tigerwife

Tue, Apr 25 2023, 5:29 pm

bigsis144 wrote:

I think there is a fear of *ambiguity* in frum literature. Moral ambiguity, factual ambiguity…

I think some parents have a real fear of children being “told lies”, or the ambiguity of “well, this fantastic scenario is totally made up, while this one is a real Midrash and we won’t question it”.

A Dr Seuss-esque magical flying mitzvah mobile in a picture book is fine, but it’s actually the more subtle stuff that I imagine being problematic.

Okay, so going by the Midrash that a Tachash refers to a unicorn, let’s say. Can you have one existing in modern times? Would a story about “The Last Tachash” contradict a source in our centuries of commentaries? If, say, Rashi says there aren’t any left, can we dare even contemplate otherwise? How can be introduce ambiguity around a “fact” from holy sources?

You’re right about parents being afraid their kids won’t differentiate fiction from truth. I remember a parent being horrified about Megillas Lester while I thought it was awesome. I realized that since I grew up reading fantasy, I knew how to separate fact and fantasy, while a child never exposed to the genre may find that more difficult to do.

InnerMe

Tue, Apr 25 2023, 5:41 pm

I'm not into fantasy, but this discussion is super interesting nonetheless! (Although now I'm thinking if I should get into fantasy Smile

)

I wonder if there's a way to publish frum fantasy but not through major publishers but rather through other channels that don't have such strict guidelines and then each individual can determine if it's enough "frum" for them.