Fantasy in the Frum World

amother

Forsythia

Fri, Apr 21 2023, 2:16 pm

It doesn’t even have to crazy elaborate fantasy. For young kids we need simple unrealistic stories. Yossi brings an alligator to cheder. Chany and zissy take the wrong bus and end up in a strange town where everything is purple and people are 1 inch tall. Moishy woke up one day and found that everyone disappeared. Etc etc. (talking about kids books here.)

PinkFridge

Fri, Apr 21 2023, 2:22 pm

amother Forsythia wrote:

And they find out it's a dream? They go home and no one believes them?

amother

Peony

Fri, Apr 21 2023, 2:48 pm

I'm not a fan of the fantasy genre, Harry Potter being a notable exception. Hard to imagine a frum fantasy story, despite those who consider the entire Tanach to be one big fantasy.

There's a difference between fantasy and just plain fiction.

amother

Sun, Apr 23 2023, 9:26 pm

Thanks all!
To clarify, technically the story is a “science fantasy” in that there is no outside force (magical or otherwise) behind the unnatural phenomena taking place, or the imaginary creatures unique to this story.
There are scientific or technological explanations behind all of them (without getting too technical). I wanted to stay clear of any “magic” or any other force that can control nature besides for Hashem and the wisdom and ingenuity He gave to mankind.
That is the only way the frum publisher is considering it, as magic would not be acceptable.

Thank you all for your input! You’ve been super helpful!

PinkFridge

Sun, Apr 23 2023, 9:40 pm

amother OP wrote:

Looking forward!
I will say that I have a problem with futuristic stuff - how can you write about a future in which Moshiach hasn't come?

amother

Sun, Apr 23 2023, 10:36 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Looking forward!
I will say that I have a problem with futuristic stuff - how can you write about a future in which Moshiach hasn't come?

It isn’t in the future, it’s a world within our current world.

amother

Aster

Sun, Apr 23 2023, 10:58 pm

amother OP wrote:

It isn’t in the future, it’s a world within our current world.

Ok- I really want to read this now. When it's out in whichever venue, please come back and tell us what it is!!

SG18

Mon, Apr 24 2023, 7:07 am

I would love to read this, regardless of where you publish!

bigsis144

Mon, Apr 24 2023, 7:39 am

I remembered starting a thread about this topic, and when I searched it up, I saw that it was nearly TEN YEARS OLD 😅

I’ve been on imamother a long time!

https://www.imamother.com/foru.....26624

There’s the link if you want to peruse it, but I’ll copy-paste my thoughts into this current thread so that we don’t get the “who bumped up this ancient thread??” complaints.

I’ve also been on imamother long enough to know the majority opinion about old posts 😜

bigsis144

Mon, Apr 24 2023, 7:45 am

Why There Will Never Be Good Frum Science Fiction/Fantasy, by bigsis144 (originally written October 2013)

I'm gonna ramble!
Warning, this is long!!

I don't have the budget to buy many books at all, and so most of the books I read are from the public library near my house. I finally got access to a Jewish library this week, and I was excited to bring some books home to be my Shabbos reading.

One book had an intriguing premise -- from the cover blurb, it sounded like it was a frum attempt at something Narnia-esque: a group of friends find a hidden realm where they have fantastic adventures and grow as people.

I didn't expect much (I don't usually expect much from frum fiction), and unfortunately, my low expectations were met. (I do respect the author for trying though! This is uncharted territory and I'm glad something even slightly different is on the market!)

Anyway, I started thinking about why there will never be good frum science fiction or fantasy.

1. Neither "science" nor "fiction" is valued
Art doesn't have a place in frumkeit, no matter what people tell you. At best, art is a wholesome hobby that brings joy to yourself and others, but art for art's sake is NOT a Jewish concept.

So fiction is at best a means for giving over a message. That means a character must pay for his/her flaws and endings must have a tidy moral. Anti-heroes or sympathetic villains that are there simply because they represent a complex facet of human nature, or because they're cool? No way.

And science? Again, utility is key. No matter what people tell you about the amazing math the Sanhedrin had to calculate the moon's cycles, or that the Ralbag wrote on trigonometry -- it still had a practical purpose. There were no great Jewish theoretical mathematicians until Jews started becoming secular. It's just not a priority in the Torah world.

So fiction that explores scientific progress? Those imagination muscles get no exercise.

2. World building is too difficult
One of my favorite things about fiction is world building. I want to lose myself in a book (or tv show or movie) and travel to Middle Earth or an alternate version of Chicago with wizards and vampires and zombie dinosaurs or Never-Never Land or a dystopic future North America or travel through time and space in a flying blue police box or a million other things. Even if a book's characters or plot are complete derivative garbage, I'll respect an author for trying to create new rules to make their world different. (Sparkly vampires who play baseball? Hey, at least no one's ever tried that before.)

Worlds built by frummies are already limited in so many ways because of the questions they raise for frum people.
No magic -- unless it's describing Pharaoh's magicians or something. (And I think all frum writers and readers would shy away from referencing any “real” demonology, golem creation, exorcism, etc. as being completely inappropriate for fiction, verging on blasphemy and either trivializing or giving power to these kochos.) No good guys can ever have magic powers. (Do mutant powers count as magic? Controlling the weather or something like that might be too major, but what about Spidey-type powers? I guess an Iron Man or Batman with superior technology could exist, but it's not their tech that makes them interesting.)
No aliens, elves or other sapient races parallel to humanity -- too many questions raised. Do they have souls? Do they/can they have Torah? Can a human-level-intelligent octopus creature convert to Judaism?

Even just leaving Earth has so many halachic shailos. When do you daven you're lightyears away from the Sun? If there was a moon colony, would you look down when saying Kiddush Levana? Which could be fascinating to explore, but in reality may end up bogging down a story.

For example, in the book I was reading over Shabbos, when discussing a trip to the North Pole:

Quote:

Akiva's eyes lit up. "I'll travel the world with you?"
"Whatever parts we get to in the time we have together."
"How much time do we have together?" Akiva asked. "When do I go back home?"
"One year," Allery replied. "Don't worry. When the year is up, you'll find yourself back home, full of exciting adventures."
"But where will we eat? Do you know that I eat only kosher food?"
"Yes, I know. That's taken care of. Don't worry about it."
"What do you mean, 'it's taken care of?' How?"
"You'll see as we travel. Here, look at this, for example." Allery opened a bag filled with packages of food bearing an excellent hechsher.

Just awkward.

3. Staying within the frum world

Frum literature tends to stay within the frum world. An insular way of life leads to a limited cast of characters. Non-Jewish or non-frum characters, even if portrayed positively, are always "others".

From the book:

Quote:

So we just sit here with our hands folded until this iceberg sinks into the sea?" Akiva asked in despair.
He was about to sit down on the ice, but Allery stopped him. "Don't," he said in warning. "You might freeze if you do that!"
"So what?" Akiva said hopelessly. "We've going to die in any case, aren't we? Won't it go faster if we freeze to death?"
"Akiva," Allery said gently, "don't the Jews believe that one should never despair of G-d's mercy?"
"How do you know that?" Akiva asked. He began to sing a song he had learned in school: "Afilu cherev chadah munachas al tzavaro shel adam, al yimna atzmo min harachamim, Even if a sharp sword lies against a person's neck, he should not despair of Hashem's mercy." As he murmured the words, he felt a spark of hope igniting in his heart. He recited a few chapters of Tehillim that he knew by heart and prayed to Hashem with all his might. Hot tears flowed from his eyes and froze immediately on his cheeks.
"Please, Hashem," Akiva davened fervently, "rescue us from this iceberg. I promise to learn more, to daven better, to do chessed. Please Hashem..."
Allery watched him in silence. Akiva thought he understood Allery's silence. What was a non-Jew to make of the passionate tefillos of a Jew whose life was in danger? He probably felt that Akiva was doing something he could not. Of course non-Jews can pray too, but only Jews feel that extra-close bond with Hashem. Only Yidden know the meaning true emunah, of fully believing that everything that happens is truly for the best.

You know what this reminds me of? The OLD, OLD adventure-style books, like Robinson Crusoe or Moby d!ck. Even if the "savages" were good people, the authors always write things like, "He was a good man, although he was not a Christian."

4. Mashiach will have come in the future!
You can't write about the year 2,300 because Mashiach HAS to come by the Jewish year 6000 which is 2239. K'fira.

5. We just can't stop moralizing
There are plenty of fiction-writers who happen to be religious, but even when they got blatantly allegorical (*cough* C.S. Lewis *cough*), they knew where to stop. They may let their ideals inform their writing, but they can let go of their religion enough to create their world and plot and characters.
I don't think frum literature will ever do that.

Also, I think most sci-fi has a specifically secular humanist agenda. You can have religious characters, and even if they're portrayed positively, religion is simply portrayed as "yay, that works for you, but is unnecessary for other people."

I think all this may eventually make a cool essay, I'm just throwing this out for your thoughts. What do you think?

Last edited by bigsis144 on Mon, Apr 24 2023, 8:55 am; edited 1 time in total

PinkFridge

Mon, Apr 24 2023, 8:50 am

amother OP wrote:

It isn’t in the future, it’s a world within our current world.

So more like the dystopian Between Two Worlds https://menuchapublishers.com/.....orlds than middle earth?

PinkFridge

Mon, Apr 24 2023, 8:54 am

bigsis144 wrote:

Why There Will Never Be Good Frum Science Fiction/Fantasy, by bigsis144 (originally written October 2013)

Worlds built by frummies are already limited in so many ways because of the questions they raise for frum people.
No magic -- unless it's describing Pharaoh's magicians or something. No good guys can ever have magic powers. (Do mutant powers count as magic? Controlling the weather or something like that might be too major, but what about Spidey-type powers? I guess an Iron Man or Batman with superior technology could exist, but it's not their tech that makes them interesting.)
No aliens -- too many questions raised by extra-terrestrial life. Do aliens have Torah?

Even just leaving Earth has so many halachic shailos. When do you daven you're lightyears away from the Sun? If there was a moon colony, would you look down when saying Kiddush Levana? Which could be fascinating to explore, but in reality may end up bogging down a story.

On Venus Have We Got a Rabbi.
Fascinating! Thanks for reposting.

bigsis144

Mon, Apr 24 2023, 9:09 am

2023 bigsis adding to point #2 from the above ramble, about world building

Almost everything I can think of would get cut down as being blasphemous or inappropriate.

The closest I can see as being okay would be near-future science fiction, like “intrigue and inspiration on the moon colony” (frum scientist has to get to the bottom of some political conspiracy; also his teenage son is going through frumkeit issues. And it just so happens to take place on the moon).

As long as the scientific hubris role is taken by a non-frum person (either nonJew or anti-religious person who comes to recognize the truth in their final hour), and the frum person has been wise and humble and against it the whole time, mayyyybe some biology-based scenarios like Jurassic Park? Or stopping the spread of a pandemic 😷 (you won’t be able to please ANYONE with that 😅)?

But again, those are really more just thrillers with the science part as a slightly-more-out-there MacGuffin. And we have plenty of those.

amother

Oatmeal

Mon, Apr 24 2023, 9:12 am

Yael Mermelstein wrote that science fic serial for Hamodia a few years ago and I remember wondering how she got away with it. It was placed in the future iirc.

I would love a fantasy series for my DD’s to read.

bigsis144

Mon, Apr 24 2023, 9:28 am

How do y’all feel about fantasy that incorporates “real” fantastic elements from Tanach, aggadeta, or Jewish folklore?

Personally, I don’t like it coming “from inside the house”.

If it’s done with sensitivity and respect, I get a kick of recognition and appreciation for, say, the golems in Terry Pratchett’s Discworld or the Bartimaeus trilogy. Or seeing explicitly Jewish comic book characters, like Magneto (a holocaust survivor and powerful mutant) or Fantastic Four’s The Thing (real name Benjamin Grimm). It’s nice to know that Jews aren’t conveniently invisible or non-existent in these alternate versions of our world. Whatever differences may exist, Jews are just a normal part of the world, and that’s very cool.

(Compare that to the utter Xtian normativity of Rowling’s Wizarding world. “Goldstein” is a fantastic fan fiction that actually deals with the implications of a frum person going to Hogwarts. JKR’s worldbuilding is very immersive, the vibes are there, but dang if it doesn’t fall apart when you aren’t thinking about it through the eyes of a child… AND FANFIC IS HERE TO SAVE US ALL 🥳)

—

Wow I’m rambling

PinkFridge

Mon, Apr 24 2023, 9:37 am

Tova Shkedi wrote about a five-year space mission.

bigsis144

Mon, Apr 24 2023, 9:43 am

I think there is a fear of *ambiguity* in frum literature. Moral ambiguity, factual ambiguity…

I think some parents have a real fear of children being “told lies”, or the ambiguity of “well, this fantastic scenario is totally made up, while this one is a real Midrash and we won’t question it”.

A Dr Seuss-esque magical flying mitzvah mobile in a picture book is fine, but it’s actually the more subtle stuff that I imagine being problematic.

Okay, so going by the Midrash that a Tachash refers to a unicorn, let’s say. Can you have one existing in modern times? Would a story about “The Last Tachash” contradict a source in our centuries of commentaries? If, say, Rashi says there aren’t any left, can we dare even contemplate otherwise? How can be introduce ambiguity around a “fact” from holy sources?

Last edited by bigsis144 on Mon, Apr 24 2023, 9:51 am; edited 1 time in total

PinkFridge

Mon, Apr 24 2023, 9:48 am

bigsis144 wrote:

I think there is a fear of *ambiguity* in frum literature. Moral ambiguity, factual ambiguity…

I think some parents have a real fear of children being “told lies”, or the ambiguity of “well, this fantastic scenario is totally made up, while this one is a real Midrash and we won’t question it”.

A Dr Seuss-esque magical flying mitzvah mobile in a picture book is fine, but it’s actually the more subtle stuff that I imagine being problematic.

Okay, so going by the Midrash that a Tachash refers to a unicorn, let’s say. Can you have one existing in modern times? Would a story about a brave little girl’s adventures with “The Last Tachash” contradict a source in our centuries of commentaries? If, say, Rashi says there aren’t any left, can we dare even contemplate otherwise? How can be introduce ambiguity around a “fact” from holy sources?

Use footnotes, and explain how you're incorporating it amid the different opinions.
Have you seen Rabbi Shay Tahan's TorahAnytime series on (possibly) mythical creatures?

bigsis144

Mon, Apr 24 2023, 9:54 am

I know many people enjoy the “Let My Nation…” series of dramatized depictions of Tanach events like Yetzias Mitzrayim or the Purim story, and it’s admirable how meticulously sourced they are.

But at what point is an author allowed to add their own imagination without worrying about getting “permission” to do so? Or even just *omit* a detail from the sources because it just doesn’t fit to, I don’t know, say that Esther was literally as green as a leaf?

For example, an action-exploration story about crossing the Sambatyon and finding the Lost Tribes. I feel like that would be a minefield if you wanted to be specific rather than vague about so many details!

scruffy

Mon, Apr 24 2023, 10:03 am

bigsis144 wrote:

Meir Uri Gottesman has some historical fantasy-adjacent works where he adds some of his own details.