Women Touching/Kissing Sefer Torah

Gold Member Joined: Sep 04 2004 Posts: 1520

oh how clever of you.
at the time I posted the above you had not answered my questions and you had been posting.
actually you STILL haven't answered my question

Marion, could you cut and paste the answer you gave to Ozmom's question there, please? I have re-read the thread and I'm not able to find it.

ditto.

Platinum Member Joined: Sep 11 2004 Posts: 19241

Gold Member Joined: Apr 06 2006 Posts: 1492

I've been to Orthodox shuls where women carry the sefer Torah through the women's section.

If anyone has some actual halachic sources to quote on women in niddah touching the sefer Torah, I'd be happy to read it. I had actually learned the opposite - that it is not a problem.

Mummyof6 - even though I disagree with your POV, thanks for posting it. It helps me to understand some of the thinking behind the opposition.

That said - is it really so bad to do something that (gasp!) someone may find satisfying?

A few days ago on Simchat Torah, our shul was packed. Many of the people there weren't shul regulars, and weren't frum. They knew, however, that there would be singing and dancing, food and booze, and basically a good time. They are encouraged to come, even though they aren't purely motivated by the desire to serve Hashem.

Each week, there's a large kiddush after the Shabbat services. Some people like to come to shul to socialize and eat, rather than solely for the purpose of fulfilling mitzvot and serving Hashem. They are still encouraged to come.

Why? Because even though it may start from a more self-centred point, people can gradually get drawn in, do one mitzvah and then more, and become closer to Yiddishkeit.

I see "women's minyans" the same way. If you weren't raised in a very frum, traditional environment, but had a more typical North American upbringing, walking into a traditional Orthodox shul with a mechitza, and hearing boisterous voices and lots of action on the men's side and relative silence on the women's side can be really jarring. Many of these women will never get to the point of staying focusing solely on Hashem's will - because they'll be out the door. Offer opportunities like "women's minyans", and they'll be more likely to stay - and say tefillot more often, and be comfortable in a frum environment, etc.

JRKmommy, I fail to see how those women you speak about will ever become more religious if they stick around these women's Minyanim. Maybe they'll be mad feminists.

Gold Member Joined: Apr 06 2006 Posts: 1492

I'm close to many of "these women", as you put it. They are already feminist. They were raised on "Free to Be You and Me". [If you don't recognize the title, you have no idea what it was like to grow up as a public school kid in the 1970s, watching the movie and listening to the record at least 1,000 times.] They don't need a women's tefillah group to learn about feminism. They don't even need a women's tefillah group to be around Judaism and Jewish women - the local Reform, Conservative or Reconstructionist congregation can provide that contact, plus they could always read Lilith magazine.

No, they would need women's tefillah groups in order to relate to and connect with Orthodox Judaism. As I said, once you have the initial connection, more follows.

Platinum Member Joined: Feb 07 2006 Posts: 5709

this tefilah group that I have mentioned took place on simchat torah
in a orthodox shul =
my daughter received her first aliyah.

Platinum Member Joined: Jun 09 2005 Posts: 11840

These women's groups often do not make women more comfortable in Orthodox settings: they often serve to make the women more angry as a group at Torah Judaism, and alienate them further.
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Dip the apple in the honey...

Gold Member Joined: Apr 06 2006 Posts: 1492

My approach is to try to bring people closer to Torah, and not the Torah closer to the people. In other words, try to make them see the beauty in keeping the Torah and Mitzvos rather than cutting corners and rounding bends in an attempt to live up to their expectations.

Platinum Member Joined: Jun 09 2005 Posts: 11840

ומקרבן לתורה not ומקרב תורה להם!

I hear all of your opinions, but so far nobody's brought conclusive evidence that shows a halachic problem with a women's tefilla group.
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I have bursts of being a lady, but it doesn't last long.
(Shelley Winters)

Some points to consider (copied [edited a bit] from a user's comment on AskMoses):

1.Women do not have a requirement, responsibility to say many of the prayers.

2.If a person should establish a commitment (by doing an act three times) they are bound to continue to do that act. This is a very serious religious responsibility, not to be taken lightly or neglected.

3. Mitzvot have a personal effect and goal. There is also a communal application. Each mitzvah has its unique contribution. A women�s contribution to the communal good by Torah reading is not identified. For example: consider a bank account, some people add big bucks, some little bucks, but some may enter a foreign currency which does not help the overall situation.

4. It is an accepted concept that an obligation that is done because and or in spite of a lack of personal commitment, enthusiasm, desire, is higher, better , more valued, and more important than the one that you do because it is to your own liking.

5. Joining a "minyan" would take time away from other responsibilities that are privileged and more capably done by women.

6. Men are given many time bound physical obligations because they need these factors to gain access to spirituality. Women have the innate ability to connect with spirituality and do not need these tools. In fact such tools may be interference.

7. Why do you want to form a women's "minyan"? If it is to prove a point, that is not a reason to do a mitzvah. If it is to fill a spiritual void or gap. First look to Judaism, Torah, G-D to see if you are doing all that is offered to you.

One reason we do mitzvot is to establish a relationship with G-D, to make a connection, to come closer to G-d. Mitzvot accomplish this because they are the will and wisdom of G-D. They are what he has asked us to do. If we try to establish a relationship based on our own desires, what we want to do and not based on what G-D wants us to do, then that relationship will be lacking, it will be one sided.

Platinum Member Joined: Jun 09 2005 Posts: 11840

Issurim aside, I am curious what is accomplished at a women's tefila group. It is not a minyan, and so devarim she'b'kedusha may not be said.

A Shabbos mincha WTG would consist of saying Ashrei, etc., with a bunch of women (which can be done in the women's section during a regular Shabbos mincha).

Then there is no kaddish (which the woman would have answered in a regular Shabbos mincha, and has sacrificed that holiness to "feel good" about her tefila), and the Torah is taken out so that people can "feel good" about themselves-not so respectful to the Torah. Yes, I know it's considered Talmud Torah, but guess what? I can lend you a Chumash if you want to learn. I have never opened a Sefer Torah to look up a pasuk.

Then brachos cannot be made (yes, I know some people avoid saying birchos haTorah in the morning so they can make them then--what's up with that? Does the bracha feel that much better in the men's section with an open Torah? And even if it does: why is this about YOU? I thought you wanted to serve Hashem...)

Then the Torah is read, okay. Again, the issue with bringing out the Torah for no constructive purpose, besides this alleged "Talmud Torah" which can be accomplished more respectfully with a Chumash.

Then there's the amida, in which the woman leading says her amida out loud so it can look like chazaras haShatz. You want to share your amida with everyone else? It's not personal? It's not something between you and Hashem? Have you ever cried while saying Refoeinu or Es Tzemach David or anything else? Why would you allow others to hear that, when Chana herself started the silent amida. Seems a little ironic. Confused

And then there are no kedusha, no kaddeishim, and more lost opportunities to answer those holy tefilos.

And then we all sing Aleinu together, which is nice too, I guess.

This all seems odd.

You consciously choose not to be in a minyan to answer devarim she'b'kedusha, you show disrespect to the Sefer Torah by taking it out for feel-good reasons, push off birchos haTorah (I guess you planned NOT to learn beforehand Confused

), and you say amida out loud so everyone can hear you. Does that sound holy? Or selfish?

Platinum Member Joined: Jun 09 2005 Posts: 11840

And IIRC, the Magen Avraham holds that women need to hear Torah reading, which would require a minyan and a man. Hmm.

Diamond Member Joined: Dec 30 2004 Posts: 3194

It all seems a bit odd to me too crayon