Man Davening Shemona Esray On Airplane Removed From Aircraft

Just wondering what you think? I saw this on theyeshivaworld.com and the comments there were very interesting. I'd like to hear your opinions.

Man Davening Shemona Esray On Airplane Removed From Aircraft
April 17, 2008

davening.jpgCBS2 reports that a passenger who left his seat to Daven in the back of a plane before it took off, ignoring flight attendants’ orders to return, was removed by an airport security guard.

The report states: “The Orthodox Jewish man, who wore a full beard, a black hat and a long black coat, stood near the lavatories and began saying his prayers while the United Airlines jet was being boarded at JFK Airport on Wednesday night, fellow passenger Ori Brafman said.

When flight attendants urged the man, who was carrying a religious book, to take his seat, he ignored them, Brafman said. Two friends, who were seated, tried to tell the attendants that the man couldn’t stop until his prayers were over in about 2 minutes, he said.

“He doesn’t respond to them, but his friends explain that once you start praying you can’t stop,” said Brafman, who was seated three rows away.

When the man finally stopped praying, he explained that he couldn’t interrupt his religious ritual and wasn’t trying to be rude. But the attendants summoned a guard to remove him, said Brafman, a writer who had been visiting New York to talk to publishers.

The plane, Flight 9 to San Francisco, took off without the man.

A spokeswoman for United Airlines confirmed the man was taken off the plane and put on another flight Thursday morning.

Urbanksi said flights cannot depart if all passengers are not in their seats, which risks a delay, and it is important that passengers listen to the instructions of the flight crew.
_________________
Mom to 7+3+8, [33 to 21], two SILs and one DIL & 3 cute gd's and 5 handsome gs's. And a greatl DH. BARUCH HASHEM

Please say Tehillim for Leah bas Sara Malka; Rikva bas Shaina Sara; Shulamis Chava bas Bluma,

They were wrong especially since the friends had explained to the airline crew what he was doing. That being said perhaps he should have informed them before he actually did it. Confused

Platinum Member Joined: Sep 22 2004 Posts: 9754

You can move during S"E for a myriad of reasons. I would imagine chilul Hashem and breaking regulations would be one of them.
_________________
The ability to Google does not make you learned.

I think it is a big chillul Hashem to not obey the rules of the airplane. He should have davened in the airport beforehand or asked permission before starting if it was before takeoff and he was missing the zman. Causing attention to frumkeit in a negative way is not good for anything. It is like when a frum person crosses against the light or does some other "minor" offense. Because we are frum, we have to be extra careful not to treat whatever country we are living in's laws as if they are not important. We should be upstanding citizens and cause constant kiddush Hashem.

I don't know the exact situation of this man and it is heresay from this report but just because it was explained what he was doing and it is not dangerous doesn't mean he shouldn't be treated like anyone else who wouldn't cooperate with the guildlines. I am sure this kind of thing happens all the time and the stewardess probably was anti-semetic and that's why it escalated but it doesn't change the fact that it was wrong and the airline was correct in removing him. They have no way of telling what kind of other rules he won't follow once in the air and it could become dangerous.

I think the airline's reaction may have been a bit strong. But the man was the one in error. He should have asked if it was OK first. The plane can't take off if people aren't seated. Airports are busy and planes only have a very short window of time for take off. If they miss it too bad, they have to wait for a new time.

I've heard of a similar story where a family was removed because they couldn't get their child to sit down.
_________________
A marriage is always made up of two people who are prepared to swear that only the other one snores.
"The Fifth Elephant" by Terry Pratchett

I was once on a flight that the same thing happened except it was for landing. Boy, those flight attendants were really angry because he was ignoring them. My dh and I (didn't want to get involved, it wouldn't have helped anyway) were thinking that he was wrong. We were saying that if it were muslims, they probably wouldn't have been so angry because of being politically correct. He finally finished, sat down, and soon after landed. I don't think anything happened to him when we arrived. I don't remember if it was to Argentina or to NY that this happened.
He was wrong to have started. There are times you can say it sitting down. I don't think he should've been removed, but that's the way the airlines work. For them this was disruptive and they don't know if he will be disruptive again.

Gold Member Joined: Jun 20 2005 Posts: 1939

I voted before I read your post. Yes I do think the airline was correct. There are rules in life, if you don't follow them there are consequences.

Diamond Member Joined: Oct 25 2007 Posts: 4916

Although I don't remember where various articles were published, there have been a number of gedolim who have urged people to do whatever is necessary to cooperate with the flight crew. In fact, several -- if I remember correctly -- were even opposed to making minyanim unless the plane happened to have an area set aside for that or similar purposes.

Platinum Member Joined: Jul 27 2007 Posts: 15015

Airline 100% right, man 100% wrong. We don't make up our own rules for airplane travel. There are many reasons for rules and regulations in flying, and I imagine that his fellow passengers were pretty happy to see him taken off the flight.

If people were still boarding, he should have asked permission to board last, davened in the waiting area, then gotten on the plane. It just doesn't make sense to clog the aisles during boarding, or to delay other passengers.

Executive Member Joined: Jun 21 2006 Posts: 304

The two friends on the flight were actually my cousins so I heard this story from them. They said that the passengers were still boarding while he was davening, and it was in the back, he was not clogging up the aisles. I do think it is the wrong thing to do (couldn't he have waited until they were in flight) but apparently the stewardess was very nasty and was determined to get him off the flight. I also think it's ridiculous that they did wait till he was finished davening, and then escorted him off the plane, when he could just as easily been escorted back to his seat.

Posted: Thu, Apr 17 2008, 8:15 pm Post subject:

I think he shouldve tried to do something so he shouldnt have to daven before takeoff. maybe wait until plane is in the air? if the 2 guys said hes done in 2 minutes then they shouldnt of made such a fuss
_________________
Sunday social program forming in Brooklyn for children with social delays. Pm me for more info
~complimentary ad for being a mod

Platinum Member Joined: Jan 01 2006 Posts: 48223

no tickey, no shirtey. he shudda davened before the fllight, or davened in his seat. that 's what I would do.

Posted: Thu, Apr 17 2008, 8:57 pm Post subject:

yeah what a chillul Hashem ... I can't stand when one thinks just cause they need to daven they should do it anywhere and everywhere w/o first thinking of the people around and even with them ... even with 2 minutes the airline has to do their job - we want & need security no matter what a person looks like ...
_________________
_________________
don't wonder why people go crazy ... rather wonder why we don't
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NUTso but cute ~ things balance out Nervous

DH's rabbanim forbid him from joining minyanim on airplanes b/c of the chillul Hashem. He always gets dirty looks (usually on flights to Israel) when men tap him to join the minyan and he doesn't.

Platinum Member Joined: Apr 06 2008 Posts: 5151

Platinum Member Joined: Sep 22 2004 Posts: 9754

First, there is a difference between speaking and moving your place during S'E. The man could have gone back to his seat and finished there.

Second, unless this prince was trying to get his attention because he knew that this man was not allowed to speak during S'E and davka wanted him to break Halacha, the man in the story is a chosid shoteh. AFAIK, not making a hefsek in S'E is not yehareg v'al yaavor.

If he was standing in a place where he wasn't disturbing ppl, at a time that was permissible I dont see a problem. But hello? When ppl get on an airplane it is because the airplane is preparing to take off. Imagine if each person got on and started davening like he did!
if he knows he is going to be flying, prepare to daven beforehand or wait until after takeoff. After you board a plane is not a good time to start saying shemona esrai. Everyone knows no one can be standing during takeoff.
While I think it is wrong that they removed him from the place for this, he wasn't really thinking too much.