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| waterbottle |
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 Posted: Wed, Oct 24 2007, 1:42 am Post subject: Goya coworker is married to a Jew |
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| Crayon210 |
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| Posted: Wed, Oct 24 2007, 1:59 am Post subject: |
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For the record-properly representing Torah is never a chillul Hashem, even if people don't like what you say/do.
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| chavamom |
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| Posted: Wed, Oct 24 2007, 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| I generally say something like "as an Orthodox Jew, there is no way to approve of intermarriage, but not b/c of racism. It is impossible to live a full Jewish life while married to someone who has fundamentally different values."
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| anuta |
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| Posted: Wed, Oct 24 2007, 10:45 am Post subject: Re: Goya coworker is married to a Jew |
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| mrs_steinberger wrote: | My problem is that I live in a place where there aren't that many orthodox Jews. I work at a prestigious corporate finance firm and I'm in a sticky situation because the woman who I work closely with is a Goya and married to a Jewish man. To top it off she realizes I am Jewish (I took off for the chagim) Whenever religious things come up in the office I can tell that everyone is REALLY uncomfortable. I live in one of those liberal havens where people are basically secular/athiest... Like when they found out I kept kosher they were SO shocked and they always forget and they keep offering me food and I keep having to say no.
Today a different coworker asked me in front of the intermarried goya what I thought of Jews intermarrying. I didn't know what to say. On one hand I want to state my beliefs freely but on the other hand I don't want to commit a chilul hashem if I am the first/only frum Jew they ever meet.
What would you do? What would you say? It is so difficult! |
I understand. I live/work in a secular environment in a pretty democratic area, but many people are actually active churchgoers and religion is respected. So they understand me and my beliefs.
However, in your situation I would answer to this question, "this is not an appropriate question to ask in the workplace, if you want to discuss my religious beliefs we can do it outside of the office/worktime".
Or try to end it with a joke, or ask a question to him instead, like "why do you ask?", or answer "this is a very long answer, and I am busy with my project/meeting etc. right now".
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| Lani22 |
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| Posted: Wed, Oct 24 2007, 10:48 am Post subject: re: Goya coworker is married to a Jew |
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| I agree with anuta- religious beliefs should NOT be discussed in the office.
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| greenfire |
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| Posted: Wed, Oct 24 2007, 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| chavamom wrote: | | I generally say something like "as an Orthodox Jew, there is no way to approve of intermarriage, but not b/c of racism. " |
I like your answer 
Last edited by greenfire on Fri, Nov 09 2007, 1:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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| chavamom |
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| Posted: Wed, Oct 24 2007, 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah, but if you become friendly with the people you work with it's hard to take this approach.
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| mummiedearest |
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| Posted: Wed, Oct 24 2007, 11:06 am Post subject: re: Goya coworker is married to a Jew |
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| there are three things said to never be appropriate conversations in the work place, two of which are religion and politics. this question covers both. just say that you don't discuss religion at work. nothing more.
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| Cupcake |
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| Posted: Fri, Nov 09 2007, 10:31 am Post subject: re: Goya coworker is married to a Jew |
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Hi everyone...this is my very first posting here!
I have no problem letting people know that I don't think intermarriage is a good idea. I make a caveat by saying, "It may be okay for others, but not for me or my family." That way you also don't appear to be judgemental and I believe it's perfectly okay to say YOUR feelings when asked.
I always find it interesting that Catholics find it acceptable to require that the bride or groom "converts" to Catholicism for a marriage but when a Jewish person makes the same request it certainly isn't embraced is it? Our stand is viewed as "racist" or "segregationist" when in reality, it's the same thing.
It's a real double standard.
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| anuta |
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| Posted: Fri, Nov 09 2007, 10:42 am Post subject: Re: re: Goya coworker is married to a Jew |
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| Cupcake wrote: | Hi everyone...this is my very first posting here!
I have no problem letting people know that I don't think intermarriage is a good idea. I make a caveat by saying, "It may be okay for others, but not for me or my family." That way you also don't appear to be judgemental and I believe it's perfectly okay to say YOUR feelings when asked.
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Cupcake, welcome.
As to your answer, it might not sound judgemental, but it sounds very snobbish and condescending, I.e. like in my family is superior and what is good for others is not good enough for us.
The bottom line, there is no good answer. You cannot get into a long educational discussion given the circumstances. The best answer is pointing out to the person who asked, that they crossed the line of a professional relationship and made you uncomfortable. By asking this question they are putting you on the spot where you have to defend yourself, or offend them, or just stand there and get red in the face... This is a major no-no and this question should not be answered in a mixed workplace.
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| Maya |
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| Posted: Fri, Nov 09 2007, 10:47 am Post subject: |
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Anuta, I don't see why making such a comment is snobbish. If you tell someone you don't eat treife meat, but that they can do it, does that make them feel like you are better? It's just your religious standards, and any sane person can realize that when it comes to religion, you follow tradition, and that doesn't mean you are a snob.
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| anuta |
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| Posted: Fri, Nov 09 2007, 10:58 am Post subject: re: Goya coworker is married to a Jew |
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momtomor,
the question was about intermarriage between a jew and a nonjew. In this context "it might be good for others but not for my family", sounds snobbish, because in theory the same religious standard applies to both jews, and then it is not about religion, but about "my family vs. others"
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| Starhavah |
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| Posted: Tue, Nov 13 2007, 7:09 pm Post subject: I agree and disagree |
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| momtomor wrote: | | Anuta, I don't see why making such a comment is snobbish. If you tell someone you don't eat treife meat, but that they can do it, does that make them feel like you are better? It's just your religious standards, and any sane person can realize that when it comes to religion, you follow tradition, and that doesn't mean you are a snob. |
I agree with you "Mom to Mor", it is not meant as a snobbish thing, nor will it come out that way to most people but Anuta is right it will come out that way to some people, even people you do not see at work. I just left a job in a secular enviornment where my assistant (who was Catholic) was dating a secular Jew. A meetings for work in traif resturants I would only order Cokes and people got used to the fact that I might munch some packaged crackers or drink a Coke but that is as far as I would go in "eating out" with them. Well, my assistant started getting really interested in all of the things I did for Judaism, especially since his girlfriend wasn't doing any of them. He would go to her house and ask if they kept Kosher and why didn't her brother have payis (we rented out some space to one of the Agudah summer camps), how come she ate on Yom Kippur when I did not, etc. Anyway, she started to feel really attacked and I had never even met the woman! He was just curious. So as Anuta says, people can feel that you are putting them down when you do not mean to.
To the OP: It is against the law for people to continually put you on the spot about your religion. Start keeping a log of what questions are asked, who asked them, the time and the reaction of your other co-workers. You may have a case for a "hostile" work environment.
Star Havah
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| Hannah! |
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| Posted: Tue, Nov 13 2007, 8:24 pm Post subject: re: Goya coworker is married to a Jew |
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edit
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| mimivan |
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| Posted: Tue, Nov 13 2007, 9:00 pm Post subject: Re: re: Goya coworker is married to a Jew |
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| anuta wrote: | | Cupcake wrote: | Hi everyone...this is my very first posting here!
I have no problem letting people know that I don't think intermarriage is a good idea. I make a caveat by saying, "It may be okay for others, but not for me or my family." That way you also don't appear to be judgemental and I believe it's perfectly okay to say YOUR feelings when asked.
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Cupcake, welcome.
As to your answer, it might not sound judgemental, but it sounds very snobbish and condescending, I.e. like in my family is superior and what is good for others is not good enough for us.
The bottom line, there is no good answer. You cannot get into a long educational discussion given the circumstances. The best answer is pointing out to the person who asked, that they crossed the line of a professional relationship and made you uncomfortable. By asking this question they are putting you on the spot where you have to defend yourself, or offend them, or just stand there and get red in the face... This is a major no-no and this question should not be answered in a mixed workplace. |
Baruch haba, Cupcake
Also, I understand that you would not want to sound judgemental, but there is no reason to say something that isn't true. It is in fact NOT okay for others to intermarry.
I prefer the response that religion is not an appropriate topic for the workplace. I work in a "virtual" office and this is the policy.
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| Starhavah |
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| Posted: Wed, Nov 14 2007, 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: re: Goya coworker is married to a Jew |
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| Hannah! wrote: |
3. Unless you specifically state that you don't want to answer questions about religion and are still asked about your faith, you aren't going to have a case for hostile work environment. Co-workers asking you questions out of curiosity and in good faith does not give you automatic grounds for a lawsuit.
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That is why my post said "continually asked".
Keeping a journal is because it is usually only one or two people poisioning the well. If people are jsut curious that is fine you she will not need to use it, but clearly she is being asked questions that make her uncomfortable and if that continues she needs to keep a journal if she ever wants or needs to file a grievance.
Star Havah
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| Hannah! |
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| Posted: Wed, Nov 14 2007, 3:25 pm Post subject: re: Goya coworker is married to a Jew |
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edit
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| Starhavah |
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| Posted: Wed, Nov 14 2007, 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: re: Goya coworker is married to a Jew |
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| Hannah! wrote: | | True. However, OP hasn't mentioned anything about specifically stating that she does _not_ want to discuss her religion in the workplace. Unless she gives that notice she will not have a cause of action for a grievance or lawsuit, unless someone is making discriminatory remarks (as opposed to curious inquiries), regardless of how many times questions are asked. |
Very true.
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| He*Sings*To*Me |
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| Posted: Wed, Nov 21 2007, 9:47 am Post subject: Re: Goya coworker is married to a Jew |
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| anuta wrote: | However, in your situation I would answer to this question, "this is not an appropriate question to ask in the workplace, if you want to discuss my religious beliefs we can do it outside of the office/worktime".
...ask a question to him instead, like "why do you ask?" |
I, too, know how you feel, as I grew up being one of just a handful (<50 Jews spread out over our entire rural county) and had to deal with this type of thing all my life.
This is EXACTLY how I would handle it.
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| amother |
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| Posted: Wed, Nov 21 2007, 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| chavamom wrote: | | I generally say something like "as an Orthodox Jew, there is no way to approve of intermarriage, but not b/c of racism. It is impossible to live a full Jewish life while married to someone who has fundamentally different values." |
Chavamom seems to have nailed it! It presents the Torah view unequivocally without being needlessly insensitive or open to misinterpretation.
Let me throw in another thought: 25 years ago, *I* was the goya married to a Jew who spent as much time as I could finagle with a frum co-worker. Although it's true that I was already interested in Torah, I believe her influence was another little nudge along the way. I subsequently became a giyores, my husband spent a decade in yeshiva, and our children attend chassidishe schools. I'm not saying that anyone should be doing active outreach to such people, but you never know how quietly modeling of Torah behavior and viewpoints fits into Hashem's plan.
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