Forced marriages (s/o of All Who Go Do Not Return)

Raisin

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 5:19 pm

marina wrote:

When I was going out, the girls from England had a rule: they go out three times and make a decision. Crown Heights girls went out for longer- maybe 6 or 7 dates.

And yes, if you were not married after Sem Bais or Gimmel, you were, um, something's maybe not right with you. OMG nebach on those two girls we know who are 23 or 24, Hashem should help them quickly, we will daven for them.

So combine those two together and now you have your answer as to how social pressure works.

I'm from England and maybe 2 years younger then you. No one told me that rule! OMG I totally did it all wrong. Maybe its because english girls often travel for dates, or the boy travels? I got married in Sem daled I think? Can't remember but I was 21. I guess I was an old maid, but none of my english friends got married that much earlier.

b from nj

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 5:39 pm

Maya wrote:

From what I've heard, people who do this have the girl pass by in front of an open doorway where the future couple can get a look at each other. Or something like that.

That's actually pathetic if they don't even get a chance to even have a conversation before the l'chaim.

I really feel for anyone who gets married like that without so much as having a simple conversation together b/f agreeing to get married.

marina

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 7:38 pm

Raisin wrote:

Are you from Stamford hill? I literally do not know any English chassidishe girls who took longer. Maybe a few bummy ones, but not the good girls.

bandcm

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 8:42 pm

marina wrote:

You know, I am English and Lubavitch, and I have never heard of this. And I think I am about your age, going by what you have written about yourself in past years.
But then a lot of what you write makes me think seriously that there are two Lubavitch chassidus'n, and the one I am part of is not the one you used to be.

amother

White

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 11:33 pm

I recently met someone who told me this crazy story about her husband who is/was satmar. When he was 17 his parents pressured him to get engaged to a girl. Before the wedding he decided that he really really didn't want to marry her, or maybe he just wasn't ready for marriage, I'm not sure.
Anyways, he Finally got up the courage to tell his parents, and when they saw that he was really serious about it they told him that he couldn't break off the engagement, but he could get divorced right after. This is apparently what their rebbe told them to do. They also told the girl about this and she agreed that it was way less of a scandal and embarrassing if they got divorced rather than broke the engagement. I tried to get Her to explain to me why it was better but she couldn't she just said that that is the mindset there, that it's somehow less scandalous, and the most important thing is how things look to other people, so it's better to enter into a sham marriage where both parties know that it will be ended soon after, than to be looked badly upon for breaking an engagement. How can this even be halachically ok????

Anyways, so they divorced a week after and its now about 9 years later and she is now remarried with 8 kids and he went on to somewhat leave satmar though he still looks the part somewhat and is close with his family... He married this woman I met (who also left the community somewhat)when he was about 23 and they seem very happy... I just couldn't believe the story though. That parents and a rabbi would counsel kids to get married just to save appearances.

(I'm posting anonymously in case this woman is on the site)

out-of-towner

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 11:47 pm

amother wrote:

I could be totally wrong about this, but there is a concept of the Tenoyim being Halachically binding. This is why most people do it right before the wedding. However, AFAIK many Chassidic groups do it at the Vort, and so it is not so easy to just break off an engagement. It may be Halachically better just to divorce.

Sadie

Fri, Apr 17 2015, 12:03 am

out-of-towner wrote:

Wouldn't a halachicly binding tenoyim just require a get? If a get is required anyway why not just give it before spending thousands of extra dollars on a wedding and have people possibly flying in from out of town unnecessarily?

marina

Fri, Apr 17 2015, 2:03 am

bandcm wrote:

are you from stamford hill? We had one or two girls from golders green, but most of my friends were from stamford hill.

amother

Chocolate

Fri, Apr 17 2015, 2:35 am

marina wrote:

I'd also guess that people just assume that the reluctant girl or boy is just nervous or has cold feet or is not used to dealing with the opposite gender or is a little immature. And the love will grow and they will become compatible and everyone goes through this anxiety, etc, etc. In other words, they don't take the "no, thanks, not interested in him" seriously.

Yep. Exactly. I think the mentors/rabbeim involved need to listen to the person. Is she saying: He has bad middos. - or is she saying - he has good middos, but I don't know if I want to marry him? Biggg difference. Sometimes the latter = cold feet. I really believe MOST marriages can work if there's good middos involved. It may not be head-over-heels, but people can grow to love each other if they really work on it. But if someone has bad middos, and she knew it but was pushed into marrying him anyway... tsk tsk tsk tsk.

FranticFrummie

Fri, Apr 17 2015, 5:00 am

For all of your horrified mothers out there who are raising daughters, do you have plans to protect them from this type of pressure when they come into the parsha? How do you plan on standing up to the community and letting your daughter pick her own husband?

Personally, we're going to stay as FAR from the shidduch system as humanly possible, and let Hashem be in charge.

(We'd never be accepted among Chassidim. I'm far too independent, I have problems with authority, and DD has no problem voicing her opinions as loudly as necessary. Very Happy

)

All I ask is that he's Jewish, and that he treats her well. Everything else is negotiable.

myself

Fri, Apr 17 2015, 5:52 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

Parents are free to deal with their kids however they see fit in this regard. There's no need to stand up to the community, as pressurizing a child into marriage is not a 'community norm', but rather the behavior of individual parents.

Raisin

Fri, Apr 17 2015, 7:32 am

marina wrote:

Are you from Stamford hill? I literally do not know any English chassidishe girls who took longer. Maybe a few bummy ones, but not the good girls.

Yes, stamford hill. (but chassidishe people live in other parts of England too!) I dated for about a week but that was not a chassidish thing and a lot to do with other factors such as not living in the same place at the time. We definitely went out more then 3 times. My husband took me by surprise when he proposed so quickly.

I don't remember how long my siblings or friends dated for. 2 or 3 weeks is standard I think. Its not abnormal to date for a very short time but I honestly don't remember there being any pressure to decide after 3 dates. I think my family is considered pretty chassidish.

Were your friends from very geze families? Maybe its a thing with certain families. Or maybe it is just your friends. And I think it is a self inflicted thing, like saying the whole tehillim on shabbos mevorchim. You are not ostracised if you don't follow this.

If it is not working after 2 or 3 dates one is not encouraged to carry on dating, I think, but I don't think a proposal is expected then. I dated a few people and it was expected to go out at least twice before saying no.

marina

Fri, Apr 17 2015, 8:40 am

Raisin wrote:

Maybe they were gezhe , never thought of that as an explanation. Levy, Ives, Schtrocks etc