Forced marriages (s/o of All Who Go Do Not Return)

amother

Chocolate

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 3:44 pm

I have a friend who was an older single (BT) in her mid-30's, and had been dating for over 10 years. She was pressured to marry someone who she was not happy with. On her wedding day, she was crying, and she told another friend of ours: I'm not crying because I'm happy, I'm crying because I don't want to marry him.

They divorced a few months later. Apparently he was really not a nice guy at all. B"H no kids.

I don't know why anyone thinks pressure to marry someone you specifically do not like or want to marry is OK.

Edit: Cool, I'm chocolate!

And additional edit: She's not chasidish.

marina

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 3:57 pm

I'd also guess that people just assume that the reluctant girl or boy is just nervous or has cold feet or is not used to dealing with the opposite gender or is a little immature. And the love will grow and they will become compatible and everyone goes through this anxiety, etc, etc. In other words, they don't take the "no, thanks, not interested in him" seriously.

mommy3b2c

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 4:01 pm

black sheep wrote:

well it isn't a marriage at gunpoint, if that is what you mean. but the pressure is so great that the boy or girl literally do not have a choice. I know of one girl who said no to getting engaged after a few dates (very yeshivish family, lounge dates,) so her mother drove her somewhere while meanwhile the boys family came over for the lechaim, and on the way home, as they were getting out of the car, the mother said, "by the way, mazal tov, you are getting engaged tonight." does that count as forced? she ended up breaking it before the wedding, but it took a tramendous amount of strength. I know another girl (chasidish) who said no after the first b'show, her mother told her she has no reason to say no so therefore she must give the guy another shot, she said no after the second b'show, her mother pushed her for a reason beyond "I seriously don't want to marry this guy" and her mother insisted giving him another shot, she came down for the third b'show to see his and her family there for the l'chaim. her mother told her that she should know the third b'show is the l'chaim. her entire family knew she didn't want to marry him, yet they came to the b'show with smiles and mazal tov's. she ended up divorcing after a few months.

the first story is a very close relative, and I was the only one telling her to listen to her gut feelings and break the engagement if she is not happy, and I was asked by her sisters not to speak to her because, "she is already so nervous and having cold feet, please don't make it worse." can you imagine? her own sisters wanted her to marry someone she didn't want to marry. why? what is the point? the second story is a friend of mine, and I didn't know what was going on until after the divorce.

Yes. Both of these girls were forced. Their parents obviously have serious emotional/mental issues. Most people don't have such dysfunctional families, therefore this doesn't happen to most people.

BlueRose52

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 4:06 pm

ora_43 wrote:

marina - I see a couple differences between social pressure and what Bluerose was describing.

For one, social pressure can be a factor even when it's not explicit or even intended, which makes it more complicated to deal with.

But more importantly - I can see how general social pressure could, in some people's minds, serve a purpose (in this case, encouraging people to marry young and not get involved in sinning and whatnot). But what purpose could pressuring someone to marry a specific person they're not interested in possibly have? It's not the middle ages; nobody needs their kids to marry a specific other person's kids in order to merge fiefdoms. So he doesn't want to marry one girl, there are still plenty of other girls, no?

Yes, very well put. I understand well the dynamics that exist regarding social pressure to get married, but to pressure someone to marry a person they explicitly express a desire not to... that's what I find hard to fathom, and hard to understand how they defend since it's directly contrary to what the halacha demands.

leah233

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 4:08 pm

It is never correct to pressure someone to marry a specific person when they don't want to. But I have heard two different older singles (50 YO+) saying they wish their parents would of just married them off to someone they researched but never really met.I do sometimes think that for certain people who can't say yes to anyone, when they reach a certain age, this might be something to consider

myself

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 4:11 pm

marina wrote:

Well said.

amother

Plum

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 4:12 pm

myself wrote:

Pressure , though more common, is not exclusive to the chassidish community.

No, but the kind of thing where a girl goes to what she thinks is a date or a seudah only to find out she has been betrothed without her knowledge, is. Outside of the chassidishe velt the pressure is to marry, period, not to marry a particular guy, and certainly not to marry a guy you met once or twice for an hour each time. I want to thank black sheep for sharing those stories. A friend of mine told me that she never agreed to marry her dh. She said she went to visit relatives and suddenly she was getting mazal tovs and didn't understand why. I couldn't imagine how it's possible to get engaged without your active participation, but now I see. I know why his family wanted her to marry him; the mystery is why hers wanted that too. Poor girl, it took years and every cent she had to rid herself of the scumbucket.

justcallmeima

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 4:12 pm

There's another kind of social pressure that takes much longer to cultivate and is much more subtle, but very effective at getting people "married off". At 19 I was an overweight Baalas Tshuvah who was considered smart, accomplished, and "she would be pretty if she would lose 50 lbs." I was set up with men with mental illness, physical disabilities, criminal records, including one guy who robbed the elderly couple in whose house I arranged for him to stay etc... So by the time I was 20, you'd better believe I understood that I was going to have to "settle". I felt if I got to be 21 or chas veshalom 24 (!!!!!) I would never have a chance at being a wife and a mother, which I was told very firmly was the highest aspiration for any woman. Nobody "forced" me- but it was very clear what I could expect.

zaq

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 4:19 pm

leah233 wrote:

It is <b>never</b> correct to pressure someone to marry a specific person when they don't want to. But I have heard two different older singles (50 YO+) saying they wish their parents would of just married them off to someone they researched but never really met.I do sometimes think that for certain people who can't say yes to anyone, when they reach a certain age, this might be something to <I>consider</I>

Sure, they say that now because of their current unhappiness. The road not taken always looks more attractive. But there is no reason to believe that they would have been happy had their parents actually taken this drastic step. How is this materially different from going to a party and getting mazal tovs for an engagement you had no idea existed and to which you had not committed?

myself

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 4:23 pm

justcallmeima wrote:

Horrible. I hope you didn't listen to all those naysayers. Everyone has a right to happiness.

b from nj

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 4:28 pm

justcallmeima wrote:

Are you happy that you married your husband or is it something you regret?

leah233

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 4:28 pm

zaq wrote:

How is this materially different from going to a party and getting mazal tovs for an engagement you had no idea existed and to which you had not committed?

It isn't. But most of the people who complain about such situations (1) actually met the other side to know they weren't interested or at least uncertain and (2)haven't been meeting people endlessly without meeting anyone they are interested in.I'm only suggesting considering such an idea when (1) is not a factor and (2)is

tigerwife

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 5:11 pm

I've never heard of anyone who had a surprise l'chaim but there are plenty of less subtle ways for people to be pressured into marriages, especially with all the 'shidduch crisis' hock that is quickly breeding hysteria in parents of girls.

'Oh, he's just shy,' (the boy didn't say a word the entire date)
'But it's such a nice family!' (Because nice parents are immune to having not-so-nice kids, right?)
''There is no such thing as love at first sight!' (Right, but at least liking the guy shouldn't be too much to ask!)

I do have a satmar friend who did say no after a bashau, even though she was older and had a lot of pressure. But she's a critical thinker Wink

. I'm not sure an 18 year old who just wants to be a Kallah will have the guts to do so if her parents are dying for the Shidduch and most of her friends are already engaged.

Another pressure I personally felt in the dating world (not bashau) was pressure to give an answer right away... I felt bad leaving the boy hanging, but I wasn't sure about YES and was scared to say no because there wasn't anything to say no about and what if I'm pushing off my bashert yadda yadda yadda.

bruriyah

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 5:14 pm

BlueRose52 wrote:

In his book, All Who Go Do Not Return (original thread), Shulem Deen describes his shidduch process in detail. The thing I found interesting is that he clearly expressed a desire not to marry the person that was being suggested to him, yet through family, social, and rebbishe pressure he eventually acquiesces to the shidduch. How is this allowed halachically? I thought that according to the torah a person can't be forced to marry someone who they don't want to. Yet despite the fact that everyone around him knew that he didn't want this match, he was pressured into accepting it. Doesn't this directly contravene the halacha?

I think Maya mentioned this already, but many things that are done in the Chassidish community are not thought of from within a halachic framework - and this is just one of those things.

It seems that insularity, comformity and loyalty to the Rebbe, in many cases, will trump halacha. Just the way it is.