 |
|
 |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
| ChossidMom |
0 likes
|
Moderator
Joined: Nov 24 2007
Posts: 15782
Location: Israel
|
 Posted: Wed, May 07 2008, 9:32 am Post subject: |
| |
| cdawnr wrote: | A response to the different thoughts:
Melachim and wings: Probably some do and some don't, remember there are different types: keruvim, serofim, melachim etc.
Fairies: You know, I agree with the pointlessness of many of these stories, but I do think that you should all step back with your venom against the outside culture and the ridiculousness of fairies. Really, little invisible creatures don't exist...not so sure that is true...They may not be how we view them but if we believe that Shkadim (sp? demons) are real, then maybe this was just how another group of people transmitted the "supernatural" that was once so obvious to the world.
No such thing as magic and magicians...really then what did the Egyptian magicians do? There was active "magic" in the world at one point...and active forces we could not see. Alas, our world lost the ability to touch and perceive these things thousands of years ago...probably related to when the anshei knesset hagadola davened to have avodah zarah tyva removed and the ability to truly prophesize was also removed...I read a book once that related this to an exceptional quality of the imagination, of the ability to perceive, that Hashem then removed from us.
My point is that, while I understand not wanting to present the idea of little pixies and sprite (although I grew up loving dungeons and dragons....) you may really be wrong to just pooh pooh non-Jews when if you think about it intellectually it may be derived from something we DO believe in.
(Gosh I hope I wrote that as clearly as I understand it in my head..) |
The magic referred to in Mitzrayim was a terrible kind of use of kochot hatum'a. A far cry from the way Harry Potter uses it. Being the magic is looked at in a very, very negative light in Yiddishkeit there is no reason for me to present it in a fun kind of light to my kids.
I'm not pooh poo'ing it. It's all too real.
_________________
“All that is thought should not be said. All that is said should not be written. All that is written should not be published. All that is published should not be read.”
Rabbi Menachem Mendel of Kotzk
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| cdawnr |
0 likes
|
Gold Member
Joined: Apr 26 2007
Posts: 1223
|
| Posted: Wed, May 07 2008, 9:37 am Post subject: |
| |
| ChossidMom wrote: | | cdawnr wrote: | A response to the different thoughts:
Melachim and wings: Probably some do and some don't, remember there are different types: keruvim, serofim, melachim etc.
Fairies: You know, I agree with the pointlessness of many of these stories, but I do think that you should all step back with your venom against the outside culture and the ridiculousness of fairies. Really, little invisible creatures don't exist...not so sure that is true...They may not be how we view them but if we believe that Shkadim (sp? demons) are real, then maybe this was just how another group of people transmitted the "supernatural" that was once so obvious to the world.
No such thing as magic and magicians...really then what did the Egyptian magicians do? There was active "magic" in the world at one point...and active forces we could not see. Alas, our world lost the ability to touch and perceive these things thousands of years ago...probably related to when the anshei knesset hagadola davened to have avodah zarah tyva removed and the ability to truly prophesize was also removed...I read a book once that related this to an exceptional quality of the imagination, of the ability to perceive, that Hashem then removed from us.
My point is that, while I understand not wanting to present the idea of little pixies and sprite (although I grew up loving dungeons and dragons....) you may really be wrong to just pooh pooh non-Jews when if you think about it intellectually it may be derived from something we DO believe in.
(Gosh I hope I wrote that as clearly as I understand it in my head..) |
The magic referred to in Mitzrayim was a terrible kind of use of kochot hatum'a. A far cry from the way Harry Potter uses it. Being the magic is looked at in a very, very negative light in Yiddishkeit there is no reason for me to present it in a fun kind of light to my kids.
I'm not pooh poo'ing it. It's all too real. |
I've been taught that everything is balanced. If the Mitzrim used the Kochot Hatum'a, then aaron tranformed the staff using Kochot Hakadosh (ok, I made that Hebrew phrase up, but you get the point.) My point was more that at one point in time it really was possible for a person to transform a stick into a snake.
BTW also on the talking animals--um Bilam's donkey! So it isn't totally out of the realm of our world---ok, ok, it really isn't the same thing. I have to agree on the silliness of the talking animals. Just the other day I was wondering about it, especially in things where one type of animal is made human like and wears clothing but others don't.
_________________
SR
ds-6, 8 Iyar 5764
dd- 5, 6 Kislev 5766
dd- 3, 18 Elul 5767
ds-9 months, 23 Adar 5770
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| mimivan |
0 likes
|
Platinum Member
Joined: Mar 07 2007
Posts: 16333
Location: Jerusalem
|
| Posted: Wed, May 07 2008, 9:38 am Post subject: |
| |
| cdawnr wrote: | A further thought about princes and princesses.
I def agree about the stupidity of happily ever after and being rescued by a prince...but the truth is, these stories are probably what gave me the ability to understand what is meant by royalty as a concept. Certainly I didn't learn it by watching the shananigans of the British royal family (sorry Brits, no offense) |
And there aren't plenty of kings in Tanach?...and my son learned alot about kings from the megillat Esther...that unfortunately is what most kings are like.
Cdawnr...I really don't think it is all about venom and hatred against secular culture...Just as some of us may choose not to give our kids unhealthy nosh, so others don't want to give their kids empty spiritual calories...that's how I see it. There is only a limited amount of time, so why not give them wholesome things?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| Lechatchila Ariber |
0 likes
|
Platinum Member
Joined: Apr 15 2007
Posts: 5828
|
| Posted: Wed, May 07 2008, 9:41 am Post subject: Re: re: books like fairy tales and certain movies for childr |
| |
| cassandra wrote: | | EstiS wrote: |
you can't tell them about elokus? You can't teach them that G-dliness exists? |
I can teach them that G-d exists. But I think that would get boring after a while. Not all kids want to discuss philosophy 24/7. Sometimes they want to hear fun things too. |
no need to exaggerate. I don't expect people who tell fairy tales to their kids do it 24/7 either.
There is plenty to teach about hashem to kids and plenty of true stories about tzadikim etc that there is no need for them to get bored.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Malachim are Hashem's creations like we are. They serve him but they weren't given bechira chofshis like we were and we don't usually see them unless they have a reason to appear to us. What's so wrong with saying that? |
I don't believe that. |
Oh!
which part don't you believe?
| Quote: | | I don't understand why you equate allowing your child to read/hear fairy tales with forcing the belief of fairies upon them. | It was an example of a culture out there.
I simply don't see the need to feed them that nourishkeit when we have soooo much more that is TRUE
| Quote: | | And if they ask me about malachim I will do my best to explain that they are the conduit by which G-d interacts with the world. | care to elaborate? | Quote: | | But they aren't little people floating around in the sky as your description makes them sound. |
It did? 
how so?
I can't see anything in what I wrote that sounds like that 
care to quote me where I said anything remotely like that? 
| Quote: | | I am not that mother, so I don't know why you are attacking me. |
ummm pardon me? I attacked you? I thought we were having a discussion. One in which we didn't agree but a discussion nonetheless.
| Quote: | | Perhaps these mothers are trying to protect their child's innocence. Maybe it is misplaced, but I don't think it's something to come out of hiding and freak out over. | I don't like your tone
| Quote: | | I just don't see a point in stuffing the kids with shtus like that when we have the real thing right in our own backyard. |
| Quote: | | I don't know who is being "stuffed," it is a minor part of my children's lives and not one we pay much attention to. I would not be content discussing religious ideas and nothing else all day long and I imagine it's worse for children. | why do you keep exaggerating? do you need to discuss fairies all day long that you assume I mean for you to discuss religion all day long? | Quote: | | I think you need to lighten up a little. | and I think you need to stop personalizing this discussion.
| Quote: | | I had to Google that, and no I wouldn't, but I don't really understand what your question is trying to prove. | Perhaps you'd like to scroll back and read what I had to write on stories like cindarela, hansel and gretel and other such gruesome tales. Then you may understand what I'm talking about.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| cdawnr |
0 likes
|
Gold Member
Joined: Apr 26 2007
Posts: 1223
|
| Posted: Wed, May 07 2008, 10:06 am Post subject: |
| |
| mimivan wrote: | | cdawnr wrote: | A further thought about princes and princesses.
I def agree about the stupidity of happily ever after and being rescued by a prince...but the truth is, these stories are probably what gave me the ability to understand what is meant by royalty as a concept. Certainly I didn't learn it by watching the shananigans of the British royal family (sorry Brits, no offense) |
And there aren't plenty of kings in Tanach?...and my son learned alot about kings from the megillat Esther...that unfortunately is what most kings are like.
Cdawnr...I really don't think it is all about venom and hatred against secular culture...Just as some of us may choose not to give our kids unhealthy nosh, so others don't want to give their kids empty spiritual calories...that's how I see it. There is only a limited amount of time, so why not give them wholesome things? |
Mimivan,
I hear your point on the kings, but really without the images it is a hard cancept in my mind. Of course, upholding your point, don't most of our little girls want to dress up like Queen Esther. Then again, where do they get the image of the fancied up queen (especially as none of them dress the way Esther would have.)
The venom I was discussing was more the the point that the tone here often takes a note of anyone who does do these things is wrong...That just gets my spine up (totally messed up that metaphor...oh well)
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| gryp |
0 likes
|
Platinum Member
Joined: Sep 11 2004
Posts: 19241
|
| Posted: Wed, May 07 2008, 11:19 am Post subject: re: books like fairy tales and certain movies for children |
| |
| Quote: | | The venom I was discussing was more the the point that the tone here often takes a note of anyone who does do these things is wrong...That just gets my spine up (totally messed up that metaphor...oh well) |
I don't know if that's a fair thing to say. We don't all have the exact same goals in mind when it comes to raising our kids the way we think is proper. I know I think it's wrong for me to do a certain thing, but that has no bearing on someone who is raising their children differently. We don't all have the same standards, if we did then you'd be right.
_________________
The Chanukah licht transcends all.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| Clarissa |
0 likes
|
Platinum Member
Joined: Jul 27 2007
Posts: 15015
|
| Posted: Wed, May 07 2008, 11:20 am Post subject: re: books like fairy tales and certain movies for children |
| |
Disclaimer before I post: I'm sick and haven't read most of this thread. So my post may come off as irrelevant, unfocused and clueless.
I love fairy tales, fantasy, mythology and everything else, for myself and for my children. I don't tell or read really violent versions of these stories to my kids, as I don't love violent imagery in my home if I can avoid it. When they're older, I don't dumb things down as much. But I love and admire storytelling and storytellers (I have a good friend who's a professional storyteller) and I think they can offer valuable life lessons in addition to nurturing imaginations and intellect. So many of our dreams, fantasies and nightmares can be connected to something that somebody else has dreamed up and told, so many analogies can be drawn between real life experiences and stories. I don't throw out many forms of entertainment that can also be used to illuminate.
Before you tell me that every thing I'm offering with fairy tales, made up stories and mythological references can be similarly drawn from Jewish sources, I'm not discounting Jewish sources. I'm offering an an entire banquet of literature and fantasy (or whatever you want to call it), a variety that is limited by my own significant limitations and laziness, more than anything else.
Disclaimer before you say that I shouldn't post if I haven't read the thread: I'm sick and my thoughts are fuzzy, and I don't care what you think. Can someone come over and make me some soup?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| happy2beme |
0 likes
|
Gold Member
Joined: Jan 12 2006
Posts: 1724
|
| Posted: Wed, May 07 2008, 11:58 am Post subject: re: books like fairy tales and certain movies for children |
| |
sarahd, you beat me to it.
I was also going to post about malachim having 6 wings. I was trying to rack my brains to figure out where it says it, but I'm coming up empty... Hey, high school was awhile ago.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| mimivan |
0 likes
|
Platinum Member
Joined: Mar 07 2007
Posts: 16333
Location: Jerusalem
|
| Posted: Wed, May 07 2008, 3:24 pm Post subject: |
| |
| cdawnr wrote: | | mimivan wrote: | | cdawnr wrote: | A further thought about princes and princesses.
I def agree about the stupidity of happily ever after and being rescued by a prince...but the truth is, these stories are probably what gave me the ability to understand what is meant by royalty as a concept. Certainly I didn't learn it by watching the shananigans of the British royal family (sorry Brits, no offense) |
And there aren't plenty of kings in Tanach?...and my son learned alot about kings from the megillat Esther...that unfortunately is what most kings are like.
Cdawnr...I really don't think it is all about venom and hatred against secular culture...Just as some of us may choose not to give our kids unhealthy nosh, so others don't want to give their kids empty spiritual calories...that's how I see it. There is only a limited amount of time, so why not give them wholesome things? |
Mimivan,
I hear your point on the kings, but really without the images it is a hard cancept in my mind. Of course, upholding your point, don't most of our little girls want to dress up like Queen Esther. Then again, where do they get the image of the fancied up queen (especially as none of them dress the way Esther would have.)
The venom I was discussing was more the the point that the tone here often takes a note of anyone who does do these things is wrong...That just gets my spine up (totally messed up that metaphor...oh well) |
I have plenty of Purim books and children's megillahs beautifully illustrated...they aren't so hard to find.
Also I have books about Dovid haMelech and Shaul haMelech etc...my son sees plenty of kings and queens. I don't have a daughter, but my son was inspired by the photos so that he wanted to dress up like Mordechai when Hamman put royal clothes on him...
Kids who only see European kings will want to dress up like European kings...but kids who see our kings will be interested in our culture too...
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| rnidich |
0 likes
|
Active Poster
Joined: Mar 06 2008
Posts: 69
Location: Cleveland
|
| Posted: Wed, May 07 2008, 4:07 pm Post subject: re: books like fairy tales and certain movies for children |
| |
I would hesitate to talk to mu son or students about malachim simply because I do not know enough about them. For a child, a whole imaginative play can come from an idea like that, and where I CAN make up stories about fairies, it doesn't matter if I don't have correct infromation, if I did make up stories about angels, my child would come away with an entirely skewed view. As for using characters from Tanach, that's exactly what I hated about "The Red Tent." Putting human emotins on people who were so far above us cheapens them and causes us to look at them through our own eyes. Torah is definitely not just for the classroom, but we need to be veeeeery careful when it comes to "playing" with it.
For those of you who would be intersted in fairy tales with non-mysogynistic themes, I can recommend "The outspoken princess and the gentle Knight," an anthology of modern fairy tales edited by Jack Zipes. It's definitely more for adults than kids, but it's a good read!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| cdawnr |
0 likes
|
Gold Member
Joined: Apr 26 2007
Posts: 1223
|
| Posted: Wed, May 07 2008, 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: re: books like fairy tales and certain movies for childr |
| |
| rnidich wrote: | | As for using characters from Tanach, that's exactly what I hated about "The Red Tent." Putting human emotins on people who were so far above us cheapens them and causes us to look at them through our own eyes. Torah is definitely not just for the classroom, but we need to be veeeeery careful when it comes to "playing" with it. |
Intersting. And yet one of the things I have always been taught, and also has been taught to me in the line of kiruv, is that it is exactly the fact that the people from tanach have feelings, faults and foibles, that they do make mistakes, is what makes them so incredible and is what makes us able to relate to Torah...
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| louche |
0 likes
|
Platinum Member
Joined: Mar 07 2007
Posts: 10429
|
| Posted: Wed, May 07 2008, 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: re: books like fairy tales and certain movies for childr |
| |
| shalhevet wrote: | | louche wrote: | | shalhevet wrote: | they are totally not Jewish values - greed, jealousy, and pure evil.
. |
There is no dearth of greed, jealousy, and pure evil in Tanach--nor adultery, incest, murder, general havoc and sometimes what we would consider plain vulgarity, either.
It’s the elevated tone and archaic language of Tanach, coupled with the fact that for many of us it’s not our native language, that makes it seem rarefied, but Nach especially is quite gritty in places.
I was once offended by a Biblical-period novel in which an invading army was instructed to annihilate a city and leave “none that p----s against a wall.†I objected to the crudity, till I was wandering in the byways of my Tanach and stumbled upon this passage in which David says to Avigayil (still married to Naval):
×›Ö¼Ö´×™ לוּלֵי ×ִהַרְתְּ, ותב×תי (וַתָּבֹ×ת) לִקְרָ×תִי--×›Ö¼Ö´×™ ×Ö´×-× ×•Ö¹×ªÖ·×¨ ×œÖ°× Ö¸×‘Ö¸×œ עַד-×וֹר הַבֹּקֶר, ×ַש×ְתִּין בְּקִיר
I ask you, what kind of language is that in mixed company? And to a great lady and Neviah like Avigayil, yet! |
I find your post offensive.
Tanach is kedusha, written mipi elyon. It uses the lashon we need to read. For a frum woman to compare it to cruel fiction written by non jews is just sad. |
I'm not comparing. I'm responding to the statement that fairy tales are evil b/c they feature nonJewish values like greed and jealousy. My point is that greed, jealousy and so on are universal human emotions, which are also featured in tanach, warts and all.
furthermore, there are portions of tanach that educators davka skip in the earlier years precisely because the themes or subject matter are a problem for little pitchers. Doesn't make them evil.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| Motek |
0 likes
|
Platinum Member
Joined: Sep 20 2004
Posts: 17151
|
| Posted: Thu, May 08 2008, 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: re: books like fairy tales and certain movies for childr |
| |
| cassandra wrote: | A recent proud parenting moment:
My five year old to my four year old: "If you don't give it to me Hashem is going to be mad at you"
My four year old: "Hashem can't be mad at me because He isn't a person and doesn't have feelings" |
How are you planning on explaining the verses that say:
Hashem was angry. Hashem was jealous. A delightful smell for Hashem. May my words be pleasant to Him. Hashem desires His people.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| chaylizi |
0 likes
|
Platinum Member
Joined: Aug 29 2007
Posts: 12058
|
| Posted: Thu, May 08 2008, 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: re: books like fairy tales and certain movies for childr |
| |
| Motek wrote: | | cassandra wrote: | A recent proud parenting moment:
My five year old to my four year old: "If you don't give it to me Hashem is going to be mad at you"
My four year old: "Hashem can't be mad at me because He isn't a person and doesn't have feelings" |
How are you planning on explaining the verses that say:
Hashem was angry. Hashem was jealous. A delightful smell for Hashem. May my words be pleasant to Him. Hashem desires His people. |
never mind the verses in shir hashirim
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| Crayon210 |
0 likes
|
Platinum Member
Joined: Jun 09 2005
Posts: 11840
|
| Posted: Thu, May 08 2008, 1:03 pm Post subject: |
| |
What do the verses in Shir HaShirim have to do with this?
_________________
Dip the apple in the honey...
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| Motek |
0 likes
|
Platinum Member
Joined: Sep 20 2004
Posts: 17151
|
| Posted: Thu, May 08 2008, 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: re: books like fairy tales and certain movies for childr |
| |
| cassandra wrote: | | Tzaddikim also exist, but they exist in both the Jewish and non-Jewish world, and I have no problem with my children reading moral stories that aren't Jewish. |
I'd be interested in seeing a Torah source that refers to non jews as tzaddikim.
| mimivan wrote: | | I avoid reading fairy tales to my kids, not because we have holier than thou attitude about the non jews. |
Why don't you have a holider than thou attitude when you are in fact holy and they are not?
| Quote: | | I also don't like the way in which many stories center around personified animals. Why is that? Why should my kids read about children rather than talking bears? |
There are many Medrashim and Jewish stories in which animals and inanimate objects have voices.
| sarahd wrote: | | Doesn't sefer Yecheskel describe malochim with 6 wings? Or is that serofim? |
Serofim are a type of angel and yes, in Yeshaya 6, in the haftora we read for Parshas Yisro - the Revelation at Sinai, we read about Yeshaya's vision of angels with six wings. Two wings to cover their face, two to cover their feet, and two with which to fly
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| chaylizi |
0 likes
|
Platinum Member
Joined: Aug 29 2007
Posts: 12058
|
| Posted: Thu, May 08 2008, 1:06 pm Post subject: |
| |
| Crayon210 wrote: | | What do the verses in Shir HaShirim have to do with this? |
nevermind
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| louche |
0 likes
|
Platinum Member
Joined: Mar 07 2007
Posts: 10429
|
| Posted: Thu, May 08 2008, 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: re: books like fairy tales and certain movies for childr |
| |
| Motek wrote: |
How are you planning on explaining the verses that say:
Hashem was angry. Hashem was jealous. A delightful smell for Hashem. May my words be pleasant to Him. Hashem desires His people. |
presumably the same way they're explained in every BY and cheder around the globe: Dibrah Torah bil'shon basar vadam.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| Motek |
0 likes
|
Platinum Member
Joined: Sep 20 2004
Posts: 17151
|
| Posted: Thu, May 08 2008, 1:11 pm Post subject: |
| |
| Crayon210 wrote: | | What do the verses in Shir HaShirim have to do with this? |
They depict Hashem's love (an emotion) for the Jewish people as a mashal of the love between a man and a woman.
| louch wrote: | | I'm responding to the statement that fairy tales are evil |
Shalhevet did not say that fairy tales are evil. She said they contain non-Jewish values. I assume the pure evil referred to is something like eating children. And her point that comparing Tanach to anything non-Torah still stands.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| Crayon210 |
0 likes
|
Platinum Member
Joined: Jun 09 2005
Posts: 11840
|
| Posted: Thu, May 08 2008, 1:13 pm Post subject: |
| |
| Motek wrote: | | Crayon210 wrote: | | What do the verses in Shir HaShirim have to do with this? |
They depict Hashem's love (an emotion) for the Jewish people as a mashal of the love between a man and a woman. |
But it's a mashal, and on the surface, you don't have to teach about anthropomorphism. Also, by the time a "child" is learning Shir HaShirim, they probably understand that. I've never heard of teaching SHS to a four-year-old.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
| Similar Topics |
| Topic |
Author |
Forum |
Replies |
Last Post |
 |
Jewish Fairy Tales?
|
jba |
Parenting our children |
6 |
Wed, Aug 13 2008, 1:06 am 
queen |
|
Innocent children's movies (not innoc...
|
Tamiri |
Preschoolers |
23 |
Mon, Oct 19 2009, 11:26 am
levial |
|
why do movies get rated and not inapp...
|
amother |
Entertainment |
0 |
Wed, Feb 27 2013, 10:16 pm
amother |
 |
which movies do you let your 4 t0 7 y...
|
ny21 |
School age children |
25 |
Wed, Oct 11 2006, 8:00 pm
Pickle Lady |
|
children's books
|
morticia_again |
Parenting our children |
10 |
Mon, Oct 10 2005, 11:19 am
Meema2Kids |
| Quick Reply
|
|
|
| Choose Display Order |
|
| User Permissions |
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
|  |
 |
|
 |
|
|
